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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Apr 20, 2004 0:35:51 GMT -5
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 20, 2004 7:50:42 GMT -5
Nice job as always Nan. You summed it up in this sentence: "Surfaces are deceptive. It’s what’s underneath that matters."
I wondered too if the two soldiers down meant Doyle and Cordy, or if it meant Doyle and Gunn, or if it meant Cordy and Gunn, or if it meant Cordy and Fred, or Doyle and Fred, or even Connor and Cordy . . . or what. I am still confused on that one.
Maybe there is hope for Fred in that sentence?
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Apr 20, 2004 8:48:14 GMT -5
Nice job as always Nan. You summed it up in this sentence: "Surfaces are deceptive. It’s what’s underneath that matters." I wondered too if the two soldiers down meant Doyle and Cordy, or if it meant Doyle and Gunn, or if it meant Cordy and Gunn, or if it meant Cordy and Fred, or Doyle and Fred, or even Connor and Cordy . . . or what. I am still confused on that one. Maybe there is hope for Fred in that sentence? Since only two are mentioned, and one (per Cordy, who's being consciously quoted here) is Doyle, I think the other has to be Cordy herself. I therefore infer that Fred and Gunn may be down but should not yet be counted out. They're down/absent, not down/dead, like the prior two. So I expect they'll get back in the action in some form before the end. Waaaaaah! The end!
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Post by raenstorm on Apr 20, 2004 9:23:59 GMT -5
Since only two are mentioned, and one (per Cordy, who's being consciously quoted here) is Doyle, I think the other has to be Cordy herself. I therefore infer that Fred and Gunn may be down but should not yet be counted out. They're down/absent, not down/dead, like the prior two. So I expect they'll get back in the action in some form before the end. Waaaaaah! The end! How poetic that the person telling Angel that he has two soldiers down is the one who was calling himself Doyle at the beginning of this season. I don't actually agree that he's referring to Doyle and Cordy but that's really a moot point. Great review, as always, Nan! I love how you pointed out that solitary state of everyone at the beginning of this episode. Angel may be the one saying, "how come I'm always alone," but he's certainly not the only one alone this time. Actually, I'd say he's the only one who truly is NOT alone given that he has Spike. Pardon the approaching pun but I suspect this episode only scratched the surface of foundation underneath this whole season. I sure hope they can get it all out in the episodes that are left.
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Post by Riff on Apr 20, 2004 10:47:37 GMT -5
Another excellent review that hits the nail right on the head.
We’ve moved from shells to layers and what lies beneath them, which, as you say, seems to be the truth. I also noticed how this episode appeared to be about characters trapped. Illyria, as some people have said, acts remarkably like Fred in her cave in Pylea. Eve hides among symbols scrawled on the walls – Fred in Pylea again. Gunn alienates himself in the hospital room and then in suburbia. Lindsey is caught in suburbia and then W&H, with Angel as his warden. Angel himself, is wracked by a guilt only he can be aware of. Almost every character is in one kind of prison or another.
It’s worth noting that some of the first serious dialogue in the episode involves Angel describing how Fred was “trapped, hiding” in Pylea. Is she trapped and yet also hiding still? As well as Wes’s dream, which could definitely imply that Fred is somehow submerged beneath Illyria (but we can see the first layer of her), I was struck by the Fred-like emotions displayed – Illyria even smiles.
Things aren’t working out the way Illyria expected, are they? To me it seems that there are not just memories of Fred in her (or it); Illyria is battling against another presence. She tells Wesley he tried to hurt feelings she no longer has, but she quite obviously does have them. Highly anxious, she says “My face is not my own. I do not know what it will say.” Hmmmmm. Fred may or may not be gone (though to me the evidence points to the latter), but, either way, the writers are quite deliberately teasing us and keeping us guessing. Take the titles – Illyria has replaced some but not all of Fred’s images. One of Fred’s images is almost subliminal, a split-second shot of her in her glasses, spliced between two images of Illyria.
Interestingly, Juliet says, “My face is not my own” in Romeo and Juliet. This may be coincidence but, as has been pointed out, Lorne’s admonition to Wes and Fred that they should “Get a balcony,” in A Hole in the World seems to associate them with Shakespeare’s tragic lovers. If you remember, in the play Juliet appears to be dead and Romeo takes his own life, but Juliet has in fact taken a drug to fake death and awakes. Finding her love dead, she joins him in suicide. I hope we aren’t going see that happy tale played out!
I, like many others, noticed Lindsey’s use of the phrase “two soldiers down”. If this has no connection with Cordelia’s words in You're Welcome then that is sloppy writing, and I don’t believe the writers would be so inept. So, what does it mean? Is it simply the echo of a memorable phrase, but in this case referring to Fred and Gunn, or is it describing the loss of Doyle and Cordy?
So THE apocalypse is coming, is already here? One would think that, in that case, the Shanshu issue will be resolved. Then again, this is Joss…
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Post by Cheddar on Apr 20, 2004 10:49:36 GMT -5
Another great review, these reviews are one of the best things about this site. I'm glad you quoted Illyria's speech about the worlds she's travelled. Because I agree with you that Wesley/Illyria's discussion is likely to be foreshadowing things to come. I think that while on the surface Illyria is talking about different worlds, she's really describing everything happening to her being trapped back on earth and the FG at W&H. Half truths, vision obscured, opaline towers/moons, glaciers filled with insensate lust, even shrimp (too small, lots of people she finds inconsequential in the new reality of earth.) I'm not much into literary allusion, and likely to end up in left field. The tower, LA headquarters of W&H, reflective Black glass, obscuring vision in, special necromanced glass that prevents real light, illumination within. An opaline tower, opals, stones with association with the moon, bad luck, deception with the moon, the hunt, and a book that I can't remember, but maybe someone else will, that maybe has something of a similar plot line. Here's a link. books.fantasticfiction.co.uk/n1/n6869.htm?authorid=4404glaciers, insensate lust. Glacier, cold, unfeeling, inexorable force, crushing everything in its path, changing the very shape of the earth, digging away at its layers, etc. Insensate, lacking feeling, lacking understanding, inhuman. The lust, in some ways an extremely strong feeling, but lacking reason, and very human, but also a core trait of evil. What did you think about Spike's comments on the man with the pen telling him "welcome to the team", he looks at camera and says, that's got to be important when they get back to Angel's office. Spike didn't sign the contract, but by pledging to fight with Angel, unintentionally sign on to the deal and he's just now realizing it?
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Apr 20, 2004 11:19:35 GMT -5
Interestingly, Juliet says, “My face is not my own” in Romeo and Juliet. This may be coincidence but, as has been pointed out, Lorne’s admonition to Wes and Fred that they should “Get a balcony,” in A Hole in the World seems to associate them with Shakespeare’s tragic lovers. If you remember, in the play Juliet appears to be dead and Romeo takes his own life, but Juliet has in fact taken a drug to fake death and awakes. Finding her love dead, she joins him in suicide. I hope we aren’t going see that happy tale played out! I've said it before and I'll say it again- UH oh. Wes is worrying enough without the Shakespeare. And Gunn seems to be jumping at any chance to swap out of his life. So his little slice of hell is exactly what he wanted but not who he wanted it for. (also Nan, nice review)
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Post by LadyDi on Apr 20, 2004 11:53:36 GMT -5
Also very concerned about Hamilton's "Welcome to the team." Spike has deliberately kept himself separate from the team. He doesn't trust the deal, or W&H, and no reason he should. Very disturbing.
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Post by Sara on Apr 20, 2004 15:38:17 GMT -5
As usual Nan, your review has left me both in awe and depressed that my reviews will never be as good as yours. That you maintain optimism as to Fred's final fate is of great comfort to me as well. Just wanted to throw out a couple of quick observations that came to me recently: 1. Fred asks Wes to tell her a joke--perhaps this an allusion to "Smile Time," when Wes murmurs, "So, you're looking for someone funny" and she replies, "Yes, a certain kind of funny." Wesley's subconcious drawing from recent memories of their time together? 2. Fred's line "Don't you want to see how deep I go?" has very strong echoes, at least to my ear, of Morpheus' line in "The Matrix": "You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes." It could just be a result of a movie you've seen a few times having an unconscious impact on your speech patterns (I know after I've seen a couple episodes of "Friends" I begin to sound far too much like Chandler), but given that "The Matrix" is very much about shells and what lies underneath them I also wouldn't be surprised if the echo was deliberate. 3. Riff: Really nice catch on the "Romeo and Juliet" line. I also hope like hell that they don't copy the ending.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Apr 20, 2004 16:16:33 GMT -5
Another great review, these reviews are one of the best things about this site.I'm glad you quoted Illyria's speech about the worlds she's travelled. Because I agree with you that Wesley/Illyria's discussion is likely to be foreshadowing things to come. I think that while on the surface Illyria is talking about different worlds, she's really describing everything happening to her being trapped back on earth and the FG at W&H. Half truths, vision obscured, opaline towers/moons, glaciers filled with insensate lust, even shrimp (too small, lots of people she finds inconsequential in the new reality of earth.) I'm not much into literary allusion, and likely to end up in left field. The tower, LA headquarters of W&H, reflective Black glass, obscuring vision in, special necromanced glass that prevents real light, illumination within. An opaline tower, opals, stones with association with the moon, bad luck, deception with the moon, the hunt, and a book that I can't remember, but maybe someone else will, that maybe has something of a similar plot line. Here's a link. books.fantasticfiction.co.uk/n1/n6869.htm?authorid=4404glaciers, insensate lust. Glacier, cold, unfeeling, inexorable force, crushing everything in its path, changing the very shape of the earth, digging away at its layers, etc. Insensate, lacking feeling, lacking understanding, inhuman. The lust, in some ways an extremely strong feeling, but lacking reason, and very human, but also a core trait of evil. What did you think about Spike's comments on the man with the pen telling him "welcome to the team", he looks at camera and says, that's got to be important when they get back to Angel's office. Spike didn't sign the contract, but by pledging to fight with Angel, unintentionally sign on to the deal and he's just now realizing it? Cheddar, have your read Spring's ep analysis, Spikecentricity, on the website (rather than this board)? They're WONDERFUL! If you, or any visitor, hasn't discovered them yet, I heartily urge you to do so! They're just no end of splendid.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Apr 20, 2004 21:06:43 GMT -5
As usual Nan, your review has left me both in awe and depressed that my reviews will never be as good as yours. That you maintain optimism as to Fred's final fate is of great comfort to me as well. Just wanted to throw out a couple of quick observations that came to me recently: 1. Fred asks Wes to tell her a joke--perhaps this an allusion to "Smile Time," when Wes murmurs, "So, you're looking for someone funny" and she replies, "Yes, a certain kind of funny." Wesley's subconcious drawing from recent memories of their time together? 2. Fred's line "Don't you want to see how deep I go?" has very strong echoes, at least to my ear, of Morpheus' line in "The Matrix": "You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes." It could just be a result of a movie you've seen a few times having an unconscious impact on your speech patterns (I know after I've seen a couple episodes of "Friends" I begin to sound far too much like Chandler), but given that "The Matrix" is very much about shells and what lies underneath them I also wouldn't be surprised if the echo was deliberate. 3. Riff: Really nice catch on the "Romeo and Juliet" line. I also hope like hell that they don't copy the ending. Yorick so much in this episode reminded me of the Matrix and given Joss has said it is his favorite movie, I also wouldn't be surprised to find it was deliberate. Hamilton was SO Mr. Smith during that whole (ok, Terminator like also) stalking. Nan, great review. So we've had the shell (crust)- we've had Underneath (outer mantle), there must be an inner mantle and core coming right? And then...whatever happens when you've gone straight through the earth...
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Post by Rachael on Apr 20, 2004 22:14:36 GMT -5
Another excellent review that hits the nail right on the head. <snip> Interestingly, Juliet says, “My face is not my own” in Romeo and Juliet. This may be coincidence but, as has been pointed out, Lorne’s admonition to Wes and Fred that they should “Get a balcony,” in A Hole in the World seems to associate them with Shakespeare’s tragic lovers. If you remember, in the play Juliet appears to be dead and Romeo takes his own life, but Juliet has in fact taken a drug to fake death and awakes. Finding her love dead, she joins him in suicide. I hope we aren’t going see that happy tale played out! <snip> Interesting observation - I hadn't made the Romeo and Juliet connection. I agree that it seems like they've gone from trying to make us believe that Fred is really gone to trying to show that maybe she's really not. I wish I knew which side to come down on. I have hope, after swearing I would have none. BUT - re: Romeo's suicide, I don't believe that we will see that particular scenario enacted, just because I don't believe that Wes will kill himself unless Illyria goes first. He's past that point, and he is, despite himself, fascinated with Illyria. (Illyria - also with the Shakespeare, just as a reminder. Illyria was the name of the setting of Twelfth Night - I think it's an island. . .isn't the play all about disguised identities and a person believed dead who really isn't?) At any rate, I think Wes will hang on to Illyria despite himself, and if anyone should be able to see Fred still in there, it's him. Actually, it's Lorne. Can we get her to sing for Lorne?
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Post by Riff on Apr 21, 2004 3:44:11 GMT -5
Actually, it's Lorne. Can we get her to sing for Lorne? I never thought of that. And Twelfth Night opens with Orsino, the lovesick Duke of Illyria, saying, "If music be the food of love, play on". I'm going too far now, aren't I?
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Apr 21, 2004 4:01:03 GMT -5
Interesting observation - I hadn't made the Romeo and Juliet connection. I agree that it seems like they've gone from trying to make us believe that Fred is really gone to trying to show that maybe she's really not. I wish I knew which side to come down on. I have hope, after swearing I would have none. BUT - re: Romeo's suicide, I don't believe that we will see that particular scenario enacted, just because I don't believe that Wes will kill himself unless Illyria goes first. He's past that point, and he is, despite himself, fascinated with Illyria. (Illyria - also with the Shakespeare, just as a reminder. Illyria was the name of the setting of Twelfth Night - I think it's an island. . .isn't the play all about disguised identities and a person believed dead who really isn't?) At any rate, I think Wes will hang on to Illyria despite himself, and if anyone should be able to see Fred still in there, it's him. Actually, it's Lorne. Can we get her to sing for Lorne?With the way Lorne has been behaving--offering pleasant lies rather than the truth because it's too painful to bear--and given that he was the first to know of Fred's infestation, I think you're really onto something here, Rachael. I'd bet you a quarter Illyria singing for Lorne and in some way revealing Fred comes into play somewhere down the line!
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Post by Riff on Apr 21, 2004 4:32:33 GMT -5
With the way Lorne has been behaving--offering pleasant lies rather than the truth because it's too painful to bear--and given that he was the first to know of Fred's infestation, I think you're really onto something here, Rachael. I'd bet you a quarter Illyria singing for Lorne and in some way revealing Fred comes into play somewhere down the line! I think that as soon as she sang, Lorne knew Fred was going to die; that's why he made the decision to pray. It does seem likely that he, if anyone, would detect a sign of Fred in Illyria. Then again, maybe not. Spike said he could smell nothing of Illyria, as if she wasn't there at all. Perhaps demon senses won't work here. Let's hope Lorne can read her, though. I wonder what song she would sing? You are my Sunshine, perhaps?
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