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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Apr 21, 2004 7:50:21 GMT -5
I think that as soon as she sang, Lorne knew Fred was going to die; that's why he made the decision to pray. It does seem likely that he, if anyone, would detect a sign of Fred in Illyria. Then again, maybe not. Spike said he could smell nothing of Illyria, as if she wasn't there at all. Perhaps demon senses won't work here. Let's hope Lorne can read her, though. I wonder what song she would sing? You are my Sunshine, perhaps? Well, that seems to be three of us riding this supposition, Riff! It will be most interesting to find out if it has an engine, and goes anywhere.
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Post by Sara on Apr 21, 2004 9:42:47 GMT -5
As I was walking up the hill to my house after my morning run, I was thinking about "Angel" and all the reasons there may be hope for Fred when a piece of Illyria's dialogue from the episode jumped out at me:
"You called me a lot of names meant to hurt feelings I no longer have" (emphasis mine).
This may just be a matter of semantics, but one generally doesn't say they "no longer" have something they didn't possess in the first place. Which, if it was purely Illyria speaking, should have been the case; you'd expect to hear something like "meant to hurt feelings I do not have" instead. Considering Illyria's unthinking use of the inclusive "we" up on the roof, I think it's arguably additional evidence that Illyria is identifying more with humanity and Fred than it realizes.
I also noticed something interesting when I rewound my tape to make sure I was right about the dialogue: the dream sequence is filmed with warm red light and tones; when Wes wakes the lighting and hues are all bluish. Completely in keeping with the color schemes established in the last two episodes, as well as making the transition from fantasy to reality all the more vivid and jarring. Good stuff.
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Post by Queen E on Apr 21, 2004 12:27:31 GMT -5
Very intriuguing, and I think everyone hit all the points; don't have a lot to add, except that I did notice something when I finally got around to a rewatch last night: The joke Wes tells, "The second man remembers something he’d forgotten and it doubles him over with pain. He falls to the floor, shaking. And then through the floor and into the earth. He looks back up at the first man but he doesn’t call out to him. They’re not that close." It struck me not only as a reference to Fred's death, but what happened with Connor that has since been mindwiped. And indeed, the Wes that appears in the wake of that is "not that close" to the Wes that came before.
Sorry if this has been brought up before.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Apr 21, 2004 12:32:25 GMT -5
Very intriuguing, and I think everyone hit all the points; don't have a lot to add, except that I did notice something when I finally got around to a rewatch last night: The joke Wes tells, " The second man remembers something he’d forgotten and it doubles him over with pain. He falls to the floor, shaking. And then through the floor and into the earth. He looks back up at the first man but he doesn’t call out to him. They’re not that close." It struck me not only as a reference to Fred's death, but what happened with Connor that has since been mindwiped. And indeed, the Wes that appears in the wake of that is "not that close" to the Wes that came before. Sorry if this has been brought up before. Only in the review, Erin. You might care to read it. ;D
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Post by Karen on Apr 21, 2004 12:32:34 GMT -5
Also very concerned about Hamilton's "Welcome to the team." Spike has deliberately kept himself separate from the team. He doesn't trust the deal, or W&H, and no reason he should. Very disturbing. Nan, I'm planning to read your review later today, but I just had to comment on LadyDi's "Welcome to the team." I was watching the episode of Buffy the other day where Maggie tells Buffy "Welcome to the team.", when she joined Riley and the Initiative. Maggie, like W&H with Angel, wanted to keep Buffy close in an attempt to control her. The way Angel and Co. has been using W&H's resources to try to do good, is in some way similar to the Initiative and it's high tech way of dealing with the demons. Buffy was able to destry Adam and the Initiative, but she did it with slayer/Scooby power. I think Angel is facing a similar situation. Buffy just figured it out faster because of Maggie's attempt to kill Buffy because of her "love" for Riley. Maggie let love get in the way of the "big picture" - and it was her downfall. We heard those words from Marcus to Eve in "Underneath". I think the caveman is going to win somehow. Spike is the key, I feel - he's a part of the "team" now - but he still has his caveman senses to draw upon.
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Post by Riff on Apr 21, 2004 12:35:44 GMT -5
As I was walking up the hill to my house after my morning run, I was thinking about "Angel" and all the reasons there may be hope for Fred when a piece of Illyria's dialogue from the episode jumped out at me: "You called me a lot of names meant to hurt feelings I no longer have" (emphasis mine). This may just be a matter of semantics, but one generally doesn't say they "no longer" have something they didn't possess in the first place. Which, if it was purely Illyria speaking, should have been the case; you'd expect to hear something like "meant to hurt feelings I do not have" instead. Considering Illyria's unthinking use of the inclusive "we" up on the roof, I think it's arguably additional evidence that Illyria is identifying more with humanity and Fred than it realizes. I also noticed something interesting when I rewound my tape to make sure I was right about the dialogue: the dream sequence is filmed with warm red light and tones; when Wes wakes the lighting and hues are all bluish. Completely in keeping with the color schemes established in the last two episodes, as well as making the transition from fantasy to reality all the more vivid and jarring. Good stuff. Absolutely. Fred equals fire. Illyria equals ice. Is there a thaw going on?
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Post by Riff on Apr 21, 2004 12:39:50 GMT -5
Just a thought.
Did anyone find Wes's dream of Fred at all similar to the dreams Buffy was having of Angel at the start of BtVS season three? I realise it was more sophisticated, but there was still the idea of a dead love in a nightmare.
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Post by Queen E on Apr 21, 2004 14:12:57 GMT -5
Only in the review, Erin. You might care to read it. ;D I'm sorry, Nan! I did read it, but my brain is so full this week I can't tell the difference between my thoughts and those I've read. I hang my head in abject shame for my intellectual plagarism. I'm a bad bad S'cubie.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Apr 21, 2004 15:55:01 GMT -5
I'm sorry, Nan! I did read it, but my brain is so full this week I can't tell the difference between my thoughts and those I've read. I hang my head in abject shame for my intellectual plagarism. I'm a bad bad S'cubie. Notice smiley face on my post. Just teasing. You're an excellent S'cubie! And so say all of us.
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Post by Queen E on Apr 21, 2004 16:12:52 GMT -5
Notice smiley face on my post. Just teasing. You're an excellent S'cubie! And so say all of us. No worries...just embarrased, 'cause I was all "ooh, check out my mad interpretative skills" when I was rewatching the episodes, totally forgetting where the idea came from. Looking forward to tonight's episode!
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Post by Cal on Apr 21, 2004 18:02:32 GMT -5
Well, that seems to be three of us riding this supposition, Riff! It will be most interesting to find out if it has an engine, and goes anywhere. Add me to the count as well, Nan! Excellent review as usual, Nan. Not much more to add except, well done!
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Post by Rachael on Apr 22, 2004 0:55:27 GMT -5
I never thought of that. And Twelfth Night opens with Orsino, the lovesick Duke of Illyria, saying, "If music be the food of love, play on". I'm going too far now, aren't I? On Wednesday? No such thing. Seriously, though, no - there's no reason to assume that the literary references aren't exactly what we think they are. And I've got this abiding hope that Lorne and Fred will save the day together. Remember, it was Lorne who saw Fred's death the last time she sang in front of him. It'd be a nice parallel if he could see her in Illyria the same way.
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Post by Rachael on Apr 22, 2004 0:57:16 GMT -5
I think that as soon as she sang, Lorne knew Fred was going to die; that's why he made the decision to pray. It does seem likely that he, if anyone, would detect a sign of Fred in Illyria. Then again, maybe not. Spike said he could smell nothing of Illyria, as if she wasn't there at all. Perhaps demon senses won't work here. Let's hope Lorne can read her, though. I wonder what song she would sing? You are my Sunshine, perhaps? That was how I knew she was going to die. "You make me happy. . . .", and before anything else happened, Lorne spun round with this horrified, scared expression on his face. I knew, right then, what he'd seen. And then the blood spew.
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Post by makd guesting on Apr 22, 2004 10:06:51 GMT -5
As usual, Nan, Terrific Review! Brava!
I haven't much more to add; put my comments on the main board, prior to the review's posting.
One comment, in response to previous comments relating to Shakespeare:
Watching this episode for the first time (I've since watched it 3 more times.), I was struck by Illyria's pattern of speech and the rhythmn of her speech. I re-wound and re-watched, and thought: Damn! Joss must've written all the W/I speeches, 'cause they are in The Bard's beat and pattern. If you extract her dialogue, you can "hear" the influence of Joss' favorite writer.....
YouandI know that's where he chose her name, right??
Next thing, he'll have Lorne wearing yellow leather accessories, a la Malvolio.
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Post by Lola m on Apr 22, 2004 21:49:14 GMT -5
One more great review, Nan! Your skill in identifying and then organizing and tying together the themes and threads of an ep always make things much clearer for me. It's all coming together for these final shows - making me so happy and excited that I forget to be all sad and depressed about endings. I'm enjoying the ride while I can. The part about the call to arms. So true - the gang needs to mobilize - and now we know what for. That apocolypse - the apocolypse that they've been soaking in all season long. 'Cuz really, it's like Patti said: <snip>. So we've had the shell (crust)- we've had Underneath (outer mantle), there must be an inner mantle and core coming right? And then...whatever happens when you've gone straight through the earth... Can't wait for each remaining moment yet to come! Lola
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