Post by beccaelizabeth on Apr 26, 2004 14:10:08 GMT -5
"He breaks the Orlon Cube that contains the previous memory-set, that was lost."
one, window, not cube. Theres been lots of through the window falling this season. window significant.
two, did not contain the previous memory.
"Do you know what an Orlon Window is Angel? It's a fascinating little spell. It allows warlocks such as myself to see the past as it once was. You have to be careful with it though. If it were to break around someone who's mind had been altered then all his old memories would come rushing back."
Which I interpret as window to the past, break it and past comes through.
Quibble the wording on who betrayed who- tangled mutual betrayals going on there.
Illyria Connor comparison neat
I dont agree that Connor ever had his throat cut, simply because resurrection has always been made such a big deal of. I didnt figure it was necessary. I reckon he just got rewritten. But I know how the other thing can be seen in what happened so I'm just saying.
The trust stuff I hadnt picked up on at all so I'm having a 'doh' moment. Is right there to be seen. neat.
"t would appear that his former hero-worship of Angel has reasserted itself." I disagree on most of what you have said about Wesley's reaction re Angel. I dont think theres been time to see how it changed his feelings or his working relationship. I think all he saw was that everything was complicated and Wesley was a bad man. What Angel is is a seperate issue. Yes, with more time and new experience he is having a different reaction, no, we dont know quite what that is yet.
"quite plainly dying" I also dont see. Yes bottles etc. No knowing if thats bottled immortality or something.
atonement and suffering are not the same thing, so I think Gunn is being stupid. Atonement means making up for bad stuff, but it also and centrally means reconciliation, in Christian terms between man and God, but I think importantly between all these people who have hurt each other. Its also at-one-ment, making yourself whole. Volunteering to go off alone and get your heart ripped out serves neither of those meanings, and doesnt do much useful to make amends. I think burying himself in the suffering part is just as useless as staying in the hospital room. Gunn being stupid. But yes, in the believing in himself way, just believing his self should suffer. dumb.
"While Gunn's memory is restored" no, wrath shouldnt open, its when he put the amulet on in Lindsey's place that it did open. And when he puts it back on this time we do not have the angle to see the Wrath, open or closed.
The Secret of a Balanced Life is Reverence and Mirth in Equal Proportion
My halo's still in the shop 'cause it got dented from the time I tried to use it as a chakram.
Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Apr 26, 2004 16:44:19 GMT -5
BeccaElizabeth, some of the interpretations (Gunn) you're taking issue with appear to be those of Ultimate Drew, not mine. However, there are enough of my interpretations you disagree with to make for an interesting discussion (I hope). Let's see what others say when they chime in.
"I do not know that there is reason for hope; all I know is there's room for hope." --Julia
Liked how you point out that had the memories not been returned to Connor, he could not have beaten Sahjahn. I think Connor v. 3 is very likely to go on to do amazing things. And I hadn’t really made the leap to comparing his situation to Fred and Illyria. I’ve been busy thinking about how this affects Wes. Yet, now that you point it out, Illyria was the other half of that all important conversation about memory. And this ties back to Shells, in which we first realized that Illyria retained some of Fred’s memories. So perhaps we actually are seeing, or will see before the end of the season, a true combination of Fred and Illyria.
As for me, I also think both memory AND reality were altered. Seems to me this has been stated several times on the show. In addition to the line you mentioned, both Eve and Hamilton, I believe, have each referred to the event using both of those concepts – memory and reality, but I can’t give you the exact quotes. Maybe if I stay in a real researchy mood, I may try to find them. But then again, maybe not , I am on vacation, after all! ;D I don’t know that everyone may ever all agree on what specifics were changed, (Wes’ scar removed or not, etc.) – but personally, I have come to conclude that the SP’s did have reality altered to some extent.
Really intrigued by your thoughts about Gunn. I have to quote: “Unlike Spike in captivity, being tortured by the First, in S7 BtVS, he’s not surviving on faith in eventual rescue. He rather has faith that he’s finally doing the right and appropriate thing: atoning.” And this is exactly why Hamilton’s ploy failed so completely – he really didn’t understand where Gunn’s head was at. Does this indicate a weakness on the part of the SPs? Whether or not Gunn is right to feel as he does is, to some extent, moot. If this is what he believes, then it is what he believes.
Post by SpringSummers on Apr 26, 2004 20:49:27 GMT -5
Nan: Thanks for the great and timely review. I liked the section on Trust best. I would pick a nit on the last line though:
Which is the apparent verdict, to this point, on Angel’s “un-Dawning” of Connor: it was necessary and now is forgiven.
And say that the verdict is definitely that Angel's actions are forgiveable. Certainly both Connor and Wes seem to find them so, and the ep's message seems to be the same. But I'm not so sure on the "necessary." Well - I mean this: I personally don't think his decision was necessary, but more than that, I don't see that message in this episode.
I would say that the connection made between the Angel-decision and Fred's death is meant to leave the necessity and "correctness" of that decision up for debate.
On a few of becca's comments:
<snip> I dont agree that Connor ever had his throat cut, simply because resurrection has always been made such a big deal of. I didnt figure it was necessary. I reckon he just got rewritten. But I know how the other thing can be seen in what happened so I'm just saying.
I wonder on this point also. Did Connor ever die? Usually a bigger deal is made out of anything that smacks of resurrection. . . I have no answer here, just saying that I find myself confused on this point.
<snip> "It would appear that his former hero-worship of Angel has reasserted itself." I disagree on most of what you have said about Wesley's reaction re Angel. I dont think theres been time to see how it changed his feelings or his working relationship. I think all he saw was that everything was complicated and Wesley was a bad man. What Angel is is a seperate issue. Yes, with more time and new experience he is having a different reaction, no, we dont know quite what that is yet.
I got this vibe: Wes felt he was in too much of a "glasshouse" to throw stones at Angel. It wasn't so much that he thought Angel had done the right thing, it was that he understood what it was like to make desperate decisions, and he was following the Giles guideline from BtVS's I Only Have Eyes For You - i.e., you forgive someone not because they deserve it, but because they need it. He needs it, and Angel needs it.
I do think his trust in Angel may have been damaged nonetheless - hard to tell. Maybe, maybe not . . . I do think that is a wait-and-see.
<snip> atonement and suffering are not the same thing, so I think Gunn is being stupid. Atonement means making up for bad stuff, but it also and centrally means reconciliation, in Christian terms between man and God, but I think importantly between all these people who have hurt each other. Its also at-one-ment, making yourself whole. Volunteering to go off alone and get your heart ripped out serves neither of those meanings, and doesnt do much useful to make amends. I think burying himself in the suffering part is just as useless as staying in the hospital room. Gunn being stupid. But yes, in the believing in himself way, just believing his self should suffer. dumb.
I saw Gunn as deciding not "I will suffer to atone," but "I will put my trust in myself and my loved ones," rather than the Senior Partners. I thought his decision was about whom he trusted, not about wanting to suffer needlessly.
I’ll love you forever,
I’ll like you for always,
as long as I’m living
my baby you’ll be -- Robert Munsch
Most of my comments on the episode are on the main board,but some new ones as a result of your excellent insight into the episode: Lots of "throaty" stuff going on here, that I'd not noticed before. Hat's off to you in bringing the throaty stuff up: the throat being the primary spot where vampires feed on their victims,Wes' throat scar, Connor's having been knifed in the throat by Angel, Connor not liking people to grab his throat, Lilah's head being cut off at the throat. Always before, I'd noted the J-verse obsession with hands; now I see "throat action" has been going on as well. I'm sure there are other throaty things we've been missing, too.
Love so much about MyFavoriteGoddard's (and before, it was always "the other" Godard!) script:
"This one lusts after me. No. I. Uh. I've always had a thing for older women. They were supposed to fix that."
The whole interaction between Spike & Illyria and Spike and Illyria and Wes. Wes and Illyria are so deeply, tightly, bound together, yet they make room for Spike - because Wes has some respect for Spike - maybe friendship - and Illyria likes hurting him - and is beginning to enjoy being with him.
The conversation in the hallway between Connor and Angel amazes me. Two "strangers", yet Connor feels comfortable asking Angel about his private life (like, if he makes out with other vamps; if he has a girlfriend), and Angel comfortably answers (not always truthfully, I think.... )
Angel may not consider Nina a "girlfriend", but I do think they are dating....JMOHO, mind. I mean, they did do breakfast....
Spike's comment to Wes about "old Broody-Pants...getting laid". He may know that sex brings out Angel's passion, but he doesn't know that any mention of his Connor-secret brings out the passion, too.
Speculation: Who tells Spike, Lorne, Gunn, Harmony? I think Illyria will tell Spike... it'll give her an advantage in the fighting, and, after all, she's trying to supplant Angel, isn't she? (He doesn't follow you anymore.)
I think Wes will tell Lorne, who'll tell Harmony...and Spike will tell Gunn.
Any takers on the speculation game?
Finally, I really am quite pleasantly surprised by Joss Whedon's intel. I mean, I've been respecting, loving, and fearing (Anya! Fred! Cordy! Joyce! My goddess, for a feminist, he's so...productive at killing off the gals.) him, but I never realized that he had another agenda then heroism and redemption:
to create a TV cast of X-Men analogies:
2 souled vampires 1 Frillyria 1 dhampire 1 demon empath 1,000s of newly empowered slayers 1 Super-Slayer 1 realllllly whacked-out slayer that has great potential (Dana) at least 3 Watchers/ex-watchers, who fulfill the medieval roles of cleric and mage (bookmen) 1 super powerful witch (the medieval alchemist) 1 powerful Chaos warlock (Rayne) 1 ex-Key, future Watcher?
Andrew was right: It's really X-men, but without the crappy third act!
Once again, Nan: thanks for starting the thinking, and thanks for writing it all down, and writing it all down, beautifully.
(and, now I'm going to surf over to your LJ to read the latest chapter of Blood Rites.)
Hanlon: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. Murphy: Anything that can possibly go wrong, WILL go wrong. Occam: if you have two theories that explain a situation, use the simplest till you have more data. Angel: All that matters is what we do.
I really liked Connor (despite all the angst), and was glad to see him as a healthy, well-adjusted superhero.
I loved the interaction btwn Spike and Illyria in this. Spike is the only being (aside from Wes) Illyria finds worth her time. And Spike's comment ("I'll break her.") really hit home, despite Wes' dismissal. I'm thinking it's a good thing. Breaking her shell, cracking her code - breaking Fred out of her Illyria prison. Very interesting parallel to breaking down the walls Buffy put up around herself.
Enjoyed the review. Just a quick note regarding your observation of the wrath not opening when gunn's necklace was removed - that was not a glitch. The wrath opens once someone else puts ON the necklace, and stays open until the necklace makes them forget where they were from.
In Underneath, it only opened once Gunn put the necklace on. Otherwise it would have been open when they went downstairs (after removing it from lindsay) and they would have avoided the whole fight with the torturer, and gunn wouldn't have had to stay behind.
As always, Nan, your review goes straight to the central themes and then teases out how they play through the episode.
Memory is the issue here. As I’ve said elsewhere, I definitely believe we are more than our memories – our memories are just information; WE experience them. Certainly this is the case in the Jossverse. If it wasn’t, what would the purpose of the soul be?
In the episode this is shown to us in the choices made by Wes and Connor after the mind-wipe has been reversed. Wesley is faced with two sets of memories, but chooses one over the other (so does Connor, presumably). If he is just those memories himself, what is it that does the choosing?
I agree that Wesley sees the mind-wipe as a kindness. His telling Illyria that the false memories were created “for a reason” (enduring the truth) even implies that he considers the mind-wipe, at least in part, to have been an act of compassion (and forgiveness?) on Angel’s part. Perhaps that is even true.
For this reason, I sincerely hope that the return of Fred that is promised in the subtexts of the episodes means more than just a set of memories. Based on what we have seen so far, I imagine the writers will tease us with this very issue. Is it Fred or isn’t it?
Amy: I remember! I brought the others back; I can bring you home too. Raggedy man, I remember you and you are late for my wedding! I found you in words, like you knew I would. That's why you told me the story—the brand new, ancient blue box. Oh, clever, very clever."
As usual, an excellent review. I am so glad I found this site and you folks in time for the final hurrah.
I agree with just about all of your observations and viewpoints, except maybe :
So not merely memory was altered by Cyvus Vail’s spellcasting: the world was, too.
First, because some of the FG (Wes in particular) might say that the world was changed, it may not be so. It might just be perceptions.
Second, the missing scar and other physical changes might be a result of minor "cosmetic" changes to prevent questions due to inconsistencies. I guess we could quibble about whether the whole world was changed (the butterfly effect) or merely specific physical events/items.
So, in my fanwank, the world wasn't changed, only memories and a few items to support that memory change. I think this is significant because, for example, it means that Connor does indeed have a physical body trained and honed to fight, just no memories/skills to attach and access.
I think I speak for everyone when i say huh? --Buffy Summers