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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on May 2, 2004 23:10:39 GMT -5
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Post by Karen on May 3, 2004 10:47:51 GMT -5
Thanks for a great review, Nan! I'm still WTF?, but less so after your review. I hope that Angel has figured out what his game is and how he's going to make W&H play it. I don't think that who he is, deep down, is the King (even though we see him try to assume the role of father and protector). The flashy tools of W&H have seduced him - he needs to get back to who he is. Angel - protector of the innocent. Saving the helpless and hopeless. His power isn't in W&H. It's in himself.
There has was a lot of adapting taking place in this episode. Wesley is adapting to losing Fred by kind of accepting Illyria and actually helping her to live. Spike is adapting to his surroundings and Illyria's fighting style.
Illyria thinks that adapting is compromise. Spike says it's called learning. Is Angel adapting to W&H? Is it a good thing? Gaaahhhh - still WTF?
You said that Illyria seemed to chose to have her power destroyed in order to live.
I think that Angel, after being swept up in Illyria's wake, (did the PTB have something to do with that?) after she exploded the third time or so, interrupted her timeline enough that she was unable to kill the gang. She really didn't have a choice in whether or not to let Wesley ghostbuster her power. I think that whether or not she will adapt still remains to be seen.
Spike adapted when he was chipped, because of his love for Buffy. Angel adapted to his soul being cursed on him because of Buffy, and later - others. Is Wesley's "need" for Illyria going to be enough for her to adapt?
I don't think Gunn was bewildered by Angel leaving him behind. He volunteered to stay - as atonement, I think. And he still remembers his heart being ripped out daily. He feels he has atoned, and forgives Wesley for stabbing him. He's also done with compromising with the demons that he deals with. I think he's done with hiding the horrors beneath and accepting the "fakeness" of the W&H life. The fake sunshine that Angel is basking in. Something big is coming.
3 more episodes - and I'm already missing it.
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Post by Sara on May 3, 2004 12:43:09 GMT -5
<snip> 3 more episodes - and I'm already missing it. Eetah.
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Post by Ingo B on May 3, 2004 13:03:13 GMT -5
Loved the review(s).
Some thoughts re: the reasons why Hamilton warned Wesley about Illyria's power leakage - maybe at full strength, she was capable of taking the SP out, but by reducing her to Illyria Lite, she's less of a threat. Sure, they could've let things play out, but for reasons yet to be explained, they still need Angel and co. alive, so letting her take out an entire city (with Angel in it) would have also worked against their overall scheme.
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Post by Riff on May 3, 2004 13:22:45 GMT -5
Brilliant as always, Nan. Adaption and choice. Yes. It never occurred to me that the Senior Partners might be responsible for Illyria’s instability, but it’s certainly possible. Having said that, I question whether the SP’s really feel threatened by her, or if that was just a bluff by Hamilton. Why would they show their hand? But then maybe Ingo B has answered that. That the shell was too fragile is perhaps the simplest explanation for Illyria’s trouble, though I think people are wrong to keep calling it “human”. While it might look like Fred in a wannabe goth phase, the interior is hollowed out, the organs are liquefied, the exterior is changed and hardened. I have to wonder about Wesley’s madness. By the episode’s end I found myself thinking that he might be playing some deep game. He says he knows that he’s failed to restore Fred and that Illyria is all that’s left, but does he? When the mutari generator (which Wes just happens to have lying around – deus ex machina!) drains Illyria and she slumps to the floor with an utterly Fred-like gasp, she says that she doesn’t want to be touched. Spike comments that there isn’t a dramatic difference in her. Wes, significance written all over his face and running through his voice, corrects him, “Everything is different.” We will see just how different, I suppose. Even before being drained Illyra is bothered because she is bothered. I can imagine Fred saying that. If Illyria is her power, and now that power is diminished, does that make her more something (someone) else? There was one tiny moment of dialogue that made me consider the possibility of time paradoxes/reality shifts earlier in the episode. Someone will have to help me out here. Why didn’t Amanda know who Jim Jones was? I’m from the other side of the Atlantic, and I know about Reverend Jim and Jonestown. Then there’s Angel’s odd behaviour at the end. It’s hard to believe that this would simply stem from Illyria’s words of wisdom. Has he gained some insight from being blown back through time? A friend of mine wondered if maybe the Angel at W&H now is from an alternate timeline, is Angelus, in fact. I’m sure the Angelus part is wrong, but I can see the idea. Is Angel’s decision to let the Fell have the baby something that has come to him from time travel?
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on May 3, 2004 13:29:36 GMT -5
Another great review, Nan - You're so good at weaving all those little threads together. I'm inspired to watch it again now.
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Post by SpringSummers on May 3, 2004 14:01:31 GMT -5
Another great review, Nan - You're so good at weaving all those little threads together. I'm inspired to watch it again now. ITA. Particularly well written, Nan. Loved this paragraph in particular: "Lindsey warned him that the cases with which Angel occupied himself, trying to do good, were merely a distraction presented by the Senior Partners to keep "Angel busy while the real war continued, out of his sight and even unguessed-at. This present case is clearly just that--a deliberate distraction, quite apart from the merits of surrendering the child to the custody of the Fell Brethren. By episode’s end, Angel has plainly chosen not to be distracted. He’s no longer fighting each individual battle and, in the process, losing the war. But can tolerating evil in the small things lead to anything but evil results where the big issues are concerned? What is a war, if not a series of individual battles? Is Angel’s choice the correct one?"It really sums up the central questions - and that's all we can really do right now. Thanks for this effort. It helps bring a complex ep into focus.
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Post by Lola m on May 3, 2004 14:23:07 GMT -5
Oh my, what can I say? Just really really like those opening 7 paragraphs, Nan. They go right to the heart of the matter – not just a summary of the episode but an accurate placement of its larger themes and individual stories. And that must have been sooooo hard to do with this episode. My head is still reeling from all the goodies and confusions packed into this one hour.
And eetah on your SP thoughts! Count me as one who believes that Hamilton was meant to give that little hint that would let them kill Illyria and Wes saw through him. (I lean toward the view that the SPs didn’t cause the time jumps, but wished to exploit the situation by first distracting part of the team with the Fell Brethren and secondly hoping that in his current state Wes would help them destroy or otherwise eliminate Illyria.) Which really begs the question, what are the SPs so afraid of? Or are they?
Oooh. Hadn’t thought of it in that light before – that Angel wanting Illyria dead even though she has not yet moved against them is another sign of his increasing turn toward the darkly pragmatic. Makes me think back to these lines - Angel: “She thinks I’m trying to kill her.” Wes: “Aren’t you?”
Damn, woman – you are just hitting it out of the park with this one! The theme of predestination versus free-will. So tied to the Jossverse. Bringing us back to Lindsay’s warning about distractions and linking this to the obvious SP distraction that the Fell Brethren case was. Questioning what this decision of Angel’s will really mean. All the way up to your concluding paragraph:
Wow. Can I just thank you for crawling inside my head like that and straightening things out somewhat?
Lola
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on May 3, 2004 18:39:20 GMT -5
It's a vastly complex and transitional episode--it raises or develops issues without yet settling them or letting us see them whole. So I'm glad if my review cast any illumination on this extremely intriguing episode.
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Post by anniem on May 3, 2004 20:51:18 GMT -5
Nan, Another possible source for the nickname Little Shiva: the pop artist Little Eva, who recorded the knockout dance song "Loco-Motion" in 1962. Seventeen years old, she made a big splash with not only the song but her new dance step by the same name. Spike would remember her. If you're interested, you can read about Little Eva at www.tsimon.com/littleeva.htm.
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Post by KMInfinity on May 3, 2004 22:01:50 GMT -5
It's a vastly complex and transitional episode--it raises or develops issues without yet settling them or letting us see them whole. So I'm glad if my review cast any illumination on this extremely intriguing episode. It did indeed.... I would love this episode if I wasn't so busy fretting about how it will all be resolved in....gulp...just three more episodes. Well, not entirely resolved, which I'm glad about some days and worried about other days. Only a superb storyteller like Joss would be raising new issues so close to the .......the.......you know.
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Post by Rachael on May 3, 2004 23:59:38 GMT -5
Brilliant as always, Nan. Adaption and choice. Yes. It never occurred to me that the Senior Partners might be responsible for Illyria’s instability, but it’s certainly possible. Having said that, I question whether the SP’s really feel threatened by her, or if that was just a bluff by Hamilton. Because in her day, they were hardly worth her notice. She said something to that effect early on - so maybe they had reason to worry, what with the unbelievably powerful loose cannon running around. W&H are about control, and having their apocalypse on their terms - Illyria would be an uncontrolled variable. Or else we're completely wrong and they had nothing to do with it. Either way. But I do think that Hamilton giving Wesley a hint that allows him to determine Illyria's instability is suspicious. Perhaps, though, they knew about it and just didn't want California to fall into the ocean this week. No real ulterior motives. Yes; very Star Trek, this episode, on several levels. I very much hope you're right, but I think it'd be too simple, too easy. I don't think they're gonna let Wes save her (they being the PTBs over at ME). Of course, at this point, I don't know what to think at all - so you could easily be right. I still want Lorne to help Fred save Fred, though. Give poor Lorne something useful to do! *sigh* I think it's a distinct possibility that LOTS of Americans don't know about Jim Jones. There's a whole generation of adults now who don't remember it because they weren't born yet. I know about it, but I was only five when it all went down. And this is the sort of history that gets neglected in public schools. Or, at least, in the public schools that I went to. I got my first knowledge about Jonestown from a T.V. movie, and then my parents told me about the massacre. Maybe, but I rather think it's just Angel getting focussed on what he has to do to have any chance of winning, and it's cutting loose the individuals. To loop back to Star Trek, I think it's "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few," and Angel is, as makd says in her review, letting the Fell take the baby because mom made a choice. He might think her choice is foolish and wrong, but it's not his responsibility to protect her from herself. (I'm not agreeing here; I'm interpreting what I thought his actions meant.) The world is ending. (Again.) There's no time to save every baby that's being sold to demons - first we stop the Big One, then we go back to dealing with the Little Ones. So, I don't think Angel is playing any game. I think he's refusing to be distracted anymore from the big picture. W&H keep throwing these little, piddly, monster-of-the-week things at him, and it's worked so well that he didn't know the Apocalypse was brewing until five weeks before it's scheduled to happen. Boy, do we miss Cordy's visions, or what?
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Post by beccaelizabeth on May 4, 2004 0:39:40 GMT -5
At no point does she suggest that it’s merely a side-effect of her inability to contain her own power, which includes power (however limited) over time. At all times, she considers it an attack by an outside force.
So she never considers it could be her own fault/screwup/consequence this does not mean it is not especially since lately is all about the unintended consequence also the way things dont go away just because you forget about them or ignore them
my brain is trying to connect to the psycho slayer and the mismatch of power in a mind that cannot comprehend/contain it, but I cant make the thought get any clearer than that.
for some unknown reason, Angel is dragged in Illyria’s wake through the time changes
theory- connected. pretty stone. thing about time, once you start messing with it then interval between cause and effect plausibly gets less relevant.
And I'm *still* confused at just what point in his personal timeline Angel got yanked out. Illyria grabbed him, said ridiculous ape, then time hopped and Angel was brought along with. She grabbed him from the moment after she got him out of the meeting, right after Gunn was trying to explain about the ritual sacrifice, right? (and I still like that the background people are only sometimes human. that blue guy walking past staring at them. how many hours in makeup to do a few seconds walk by?)
It seemed like, although Illyria was not constrained to do the exact same thing every time, she kept on trying to. Same words even though she knew she had said them before. Yes? No adapting, learning, compromise. The 'ridiculous apes' line came around twice, and she was aware and part of it twice, and yet did the exact same thing. definition of madness? Or me being confused about the loopiness? Or is it only Angel's presence that *allows* her to change?
did I mention this episode confuses me to bitses? Not because its poorly made but because it is confusing.
and Angel's end of episode decision is Angel's own kind of stupid, so I can see he could be doing exactly what it seemed he was, but I'm still sort of wtf and huh about it. I mean it makes sense, but then again it doesnt.
choice is always possible. but I dont believe in endings.
Lorne useless- well at least the writers have noticed what they've done to him this season. Yeah it makes sense in the context, but I still less than happy with it.
"She was the ruler of the world, after all. That sort of thing goes to one’s head." Angel, power corrupts, heres a mirror, grab too much power and self destruct. and what does he learn from this? dumb.
bat cave - interesting reference, because the cave is the where and the why of all the rest of the story. Batman was inspired by that cave, re created himself in that cave, became part of the darkness and learned to use fear and violence for his own ends. Cave came first, man fit himself to the pattern of its first occupants. (yeah I've been re-reading batman comics lately)
Change is constant; yet things remain the same.
days of the week, circular as opposed to linear time, wheel of the year, wheel of death and rebirth, circular apocalypses as theorised in certain religions that are more about the round and not the linear. Change is constant. But the same things come around again. But do they remain the same? We retain free will, therefore we have the chance to make a different choice this time.
Which Angel apparently does.
However different is not necessarily better.
big confusion.
Illyria: You ask me to allow you to murder me. Spike: It’s not murder if you say Yes.
Spike would know this one, because if you say yes, it is SACRIFICE.
I don't know how the pieces will fall together but the ones in play are themes that have been there all along and are getting real pointy and urgent now. So I'm really looking forward to these next few. should be great.
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Post by Cal on May 4, 2004 6:26:20 GMT -5
An outstanding review of an outstanding episode, Nan. I loved this episode. It is now tied with "Damage" as my favourite of the season.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on May 4, 2004 6:34:12 GMT -5
Illyria: You ask me to allow you to murder me. Spike: It’s not murder if you say Yes.Spike would know this one, because if you say yes, it is SACRIFICE. Many, many good thoughts here, BeccaElizabeth. But the best, by me, is the one above: it was staring me in the face, yet I didn't see it. Yes. Sacrifice. Yes, Spike knows: he's done it. Accepted the amulet and stood against the darkness, even though it burned him up from the inside because flesh cannot contain that intensity of light. He knowingly went to, and affirmed, his death. ("I want to see how it all comes out" [paraphrase]) Sacrifice: Spike saying YES.
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