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Post by Cal on May 4, 2004 6:46:26 GMT -5
Many, many good thoughts here, BeccaElizabeth. But the best, by me, is the one above: it was staring me in the face, yet I didn't see it. Yes. Sacrifice. Yes, Spike knows: he's done it. Accepted the amulet and stood against the darkness, even though it burned him up from the inside because flesh cannot contain that intensity of light. He knowingly went to, and affirmed, his death. ("I want to see how it all comes out" [paraphrase]) Sacrifice: Spike saying YES. You and Becca are so right, Nan. The same thought had crossed my mind too. I only wish that I could express myself as well as you and Becca can. Beautifully written!
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Post by Riff on May 4, 2004 7:50:22 GMT -5
I very much hope you're right, but I think it'd be too simple, too easy. I don't think they're gonna let Wes save her (they being the PTBs over at ME). Of course, at this point, I don't know what to think at all - so you could easily be right. I realise the “Wes had a plan” idea is a long shot and I’m probably wrong, but it honestly seemed that way to me. His admission that he had failed and that Fred cannot be restored just seemed too sudden and final. Mind you, his focus on bringing her back was a little weird in the first place, when you consider that he was the one who immediately lost hope about her. Not sure what’s happened there. I want Fred to save Fred. I wasn’t suggesting that the mutari generator (this is getting Start Trek, isn’t it?) would restore her, but maybe removing a good deal of Illyria’s power will allow Fred to gradually reassert herself. There’s an interesting thread on the Mythical Boards, called Illyriasms. Some good theories there – but watch out for spoilers!
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Post by Riff on May 4, 2004 7:54:12 GMT -5
Many, many good thoughts here, BeccaElizabeth. But the best, by me, is the one above: it was staring me in the face, yet I didn't see it. Yes. Sacrifice. Yes, Spike knows: he's done it. Accepted the amulet and stood against the darkness, even though it burned him up from the inside because flesh cannot contain that intensity of light. He knowingly went to, and affirmed, his death. ("I want to see how it all comes out" [paraphrase]) Sacrifice: Spike saying YES. I agree also. As always, the poet’s understanding of character lurks beneath Spike’s seemingly throw-away comments. I don’t think he would have made the reference to sacrifice (and, yes, that’s what it is) if he did not believe Illyria would understand. We can debate whether she did eventually consent to be drained or not, but I think this may show a certain shrewdness on Spike’s part that Angel, for example, lacks.
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Post by Karen on May 4, 2004 10:58:27 GMT -5
I agree also. As always, the poet’s understanding of character lurks beneath Spike’s seemingly throw-away comments. I don’t think he would have made the reference to sacrifice (and, yes, that’s what it is) if he did not believe Illyria would understand. We can debate whether she did eventually consent to be drained or not, but I think this may show a certain shrewdness on Spike’s part that Angel, for example, lacks. But Angel does learn - and Illyria's sacrifice makes me scared for what Angel might ultimately do to "adapt". He was once afraid or maybe just unwilling to give up the power that came from being a vampire with a soul, in order to keep helping the helpless and possibly save Buffy. I can see Angel and Illyria being shown as mirrors (thanks becca for bringing up the mirroring of the characters) of each other in this context. Both afraid to give up of their power because they feel it's what defines them. I think that Wesley also made the decision to save Illyria sooner rather than later. It was very much an Angel-like decision. It was similar to the decision that Angel made about Connor - to save, rather than destroy him. Wesley took a risk and found a way to save Illyria rather than completely destroy her/him. And he didn't tell Angel about it, just like Angel didn't tell Wesley about his decision to make a deal with W&H.
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Post by LadyDi on May 4, 2004 11:52:34 GMT -5
Ok, feeling the need to watch the ep. again now. Not much to add but the usual kudos.
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Post by nmcil on May 5, 2004 13:05:32 GMT -5
<<To find out who Angel now is, we’ll have to watch what he does. Because you are what you do and the choices you make; and choice is always possible, right up to the end. >>
Once again, a great and really informative review - Thank You. What a shame that this series is being cancelled and that television seems destined for its own Chernobyl. The Whedonverse was the only show that on a weekly basis demanded our intellectual and emotional commitment.
To discover our essence - our core and spiritual center - the "why" of our choices and decisions; also brings the great gift of "Change" and "Hope," the last thing to exit Pandora's Box.
At last Angel has the chance to make a final stand about who runs his life - Angelus and The Curse or A Real Boy, Angel. What side of the mirror does he reflect, the shiny postive side or the dark backside. Of course now with all the time shifts and dimension in the Game how many choices will he have and just who is this being we see as Angel.
One of the things that has always disturbed me was Angel as a manifestation of The Curse - Is there a real Angel? Was the soul of Liam equal to the Angel Soul, is Angel really The Prodigal Son or The Puppet. RoboDad was very emphatic about "he has always been a puppet, and now he is ours." Of course that scheme was a failure and perhaps the metaphor was that Angel/Soul will not fail in the end. But something Wesley said regarding Illyria's host not being able to contain her essense & energy and the disintegration of her host made me think of Angel/Angelus and The Puppet scenario - Is the host Angel now disintegrating as well? I think Angel will finally have to "Go To Africa ," and destroy The Curse; his underworld psyche - If Angel is really the core of his being he will finally be free. I think that is what The Shanshu means, not just "living in mortal form" but living as A Man of Free Will and Choice - not following someone else's agenda or game, resurrection and new forms out of the past.
On the topic of Commanders and Kings - from The New York Review of Books, article of Grant:
"The ability to watch with composure as tens of thousands fall in battle must a general's gift. Napolean said he would think nothing of a million lost if the cause required it..."
Grant said "While a battle is raging one can see his enemy mowed down by the thousand, or the ten thousand with great composure; but after the battle these scenes are distressing, and one is naturally disposed to do as much to alleviate the sufferings of an enemy as a friend.
Interesting take on The General - and Angel started acting like a general not in this episode but in "Hole In The World."
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Post by SpringSummers on May 5, 2004 16:08:46 GMT -5
<snip> One of the things that has always disturbed me was Angel as a manifestation of The Curse - Is there a real Angel? Was the soul of Liam equal to the Angel Soul, is Angel really The Prodigal Son or The Puppet. RoboDad was very emphatic about "he has always been a puppet, and now he is ours." Of course that scheme was a failure and perhaps the metaphor was that Angel/Soul will not fail in the end. But something Wesley said regarding Illyria's host not being able to contain her essense & energy and the disintegration of her host made me think of Angel/Angelus and The Puppet scenario - Is the host Angel now disintegrating as well? I think Angel will finally have to "Go To Africa ," and destroy The Curse; his underworld psyche - If Angel is really the core of his being he will finally be free. I think that is what The Shanshu means, not just "living in mortal form" but living as A Man of Free Will and Choice - not following someone else's agenda or game, resurrection and new forms out of the past. <snip> Interesting post, nmcil. If Angel can integrate his demon the way Spike has, he really doesn't have to destroy the curse - I mean . . . let's say tomorrow, Spike lost his soul. He wouldn't' suddenly go all "Angelus." He would say, "damn, how'd that happen!" and go back to Africa to try again. Because soulless Spike was already at a point where he wanted his soul, where he understood that he needed it to be who he should be. So . . . this is complicated to talk about. But I don't think the answer, for Angel, is in allowing one side to take supremacy over the other, but in acknowledging both sides, so he can integrate and control both sides, and he can stop being the artificial construct that he is. The strain on him is huge. I thought the Lorne-without-his-sleep example was all about Angel/Angelus, as was Pavayne locked in the basement, and well - everything we see about the suffering that happens when someone is "split." He needs not to destroy his demon, but to accept it. Then he can stop being afraid of happiness.
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Post by makd on May 5, 2004 17:02:17 GMT -5
Nan
as you recall from my PM, this week has been especially hectic with prefinals and final papers and college assessments, so it's been just hell.
Finally had a chance to answer all the comments over at the guest review thread, and just read your wonderful (as always) review.
Nan - you are just the best at explaining complicated plot twists and plot elements. I really appreciate that you de-complicated everything and enhanced the enjoyment of the episode. Thank you, my dear; you are truly The Bomb of the Plot World.
I loved your comparing Angel as King to Illyria as King, and the role of the SPs in what happens to Illyria.
I noticed that there were some cognate areas for us, as we great minds (and humble minds, too), deconstructed the episode.
Thanks, Nan! Week after week, writing great, clear, and fun to read reviews, and never a falter, never a misstep. Wonderful that you are "ours"; wonderful to read them.
Thanks again. Now, I can't wait for tonight's episode, and then, by Sunday, to read what REALLY happened.!
have a great night, and talk with you at 10:30-11ish?
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Post by nmcil on May 6, 2004 3:51:18 GMT -5
Interesting post, nmcil. If Angel can integrate his demon the way Spike has, he really doesn't have to destroy the curse - I mean . . . let's say tomorrow, Spike lost his soul. He wouldn't' suddenly go all "Angelus." He would say, "damn, how'd that happen!" and go back to Africa to try again. Because soulless Spike was already at a point where he wanted his soul, where he understood that he needed it to be who he should be. So . . . this is complicated to talk about. But I don't think the answer, for Angel, is in allowing one side to take supremacy over the other, but in acknowledging both sides, so he can integrate and control both sides, and he can stop being the artificial construct that he is. The strain on him is huge. I thought the Lorne-without-his-sleep example was all about Angel/Angelus, as was Pavayne locked in the basement, and well - everything we see about the suffering that happens when someone is "split." He needs not to destroy his demon, but to accept it. Then he can stop being afraid of happiness. I think that we are actually close on this - What I mean by destroying The Curse is not so much as getting rid of Angelus, because their is dark and light in all men, but as you say more at "an integration of Angelus and Angel." Once he controls the dragon of Angelus he will be free to at least try for happiness with another person. Connor was the only time I saw Angel happy, and that was a new life by the consumation of his Love for Darla. And I do think that Angel loved Darla on some level - that it was not as easy as Vampires can't love.
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Post by Linda on May 8, 2004 17:51:53 GMT -5
Hi Nan,
I'm so far behind that I just want to say THANK YOU for your analysis. Your ability to bring such clarity to the episodes always amazes me.
And thanks as well to beccaelizabeth for the last little piece of the puzzle - sacrifice.
Linda, who may or may not catch up on the main thread today ...
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