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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on May 10, 2004 8:04:16 GMT -5
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Post by lurawan on May 10, 2004 16:06:08 GMT -5
Nan: It has been a privilege this year reading your reviews. I wish I had found you sooner. I love your insight and analysis of each episode and can't wait every week to read what you have to say next. I consider you the ultimate authority. I agree with your analysis of TGIQ and can understand your dissatisfaction with it. It seemed like the writers were mocking themselves, the boys AND us.
That said, I think that no matter how physically painful it was to read and absorb, I have to more than agree, and rather accept the analysis of TGIQ posted by Carpe Noctem. Maybe it's time for all of us to move on, even though that seems truly impossible because this mythology is so much a part of us all. Maybe it's time for all the characters to move on and evolve. Joss has often said, it's not about what people WANT. It's all about the story. Seems like everyone IRL has already moved on. James's hair. David's remark that he's "relieved" it's over. Joss' work beginning on the Firefly project. Maybe TGIQ is telling us it's time for us too, no matter how unthinkable. Then who knows, maybe one day when you're walking down the street in Istanbul or Tangiers and then you turn the corner and...
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on May 10, 2004 16:23:20 GMT -5
Thanks for your comments, lurawan. However, I'm NOT ready to move on, and won't. I'm 2/3 through the process of writing a novel-length Spikefic, my 4th, and I'm gonna finish it! I'm not through with Spike yet--or more accurately, he's not through with me. Still spinning stories in my head, talking in my ear (snarkily).
So with due respect, sorry. Not gonna go there. Staying here, where my friends are and we have fun with Spike-related things.
And for all future posters, when I said *Fred* had lost her powers, I meant *Illyria!* And Ben is Glory, and Spike is pretty, and I'm going away to sulk now.
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Post by Cal on May 10, 2004 17:03:03 GMT -5
Thanks for your comments, lurawan. However, I'm NOT ready to move on, and won't. I'm 2/3 through the process of writing a novel-length Spikefic, my 4th, and I'm gonna finish it! I'm not through with Spike yet--or more accurately, he's not through with me. Still spinning stories in my head, talking in my ear (snarkily). So with due respect, sorry. Not gonna go there. Staying here, where my friends are and we have fun with Spike-related things. And for all future posters, when I said *Fred* had lost her powers, I meant *Illyria!* And Ben is Glory, and Spike is pretty, and I'm going away to sulk now. {{Nan}} With you all the way! Wonderful review as always, Nan. Thanks for all of your hard work. I know these reviews are getting harder for you to write, especially now the end is so near. Keep writing the Spike fic that we love so much. I'll e-mail you about the new fic, but I'll just say here that I love it! Thanks again. Cal
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on May 10, 2004 17:04:13 GMT -5
No need to sulk, Nan - you give great review, always! As usual, I have much more to think about now.
I must say, that was probably one of the best bad reviews of anything I've ever read. You were much more polite than I could ever be, your wit was rapier-sharp and you deftly skewered all the weak points of the episode.
I'm looking forward to what, if anything, develops on the Illyria front. Something should, that's for sure.
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Post by nmcil on May 10, 2004 19:02:34 GMT -5
Nan: It has been a privilege this year reading your reviews. I wish I had found you sooner. I love your insight and analysis of each episode and can't wait every week to read what you have to say next. I consider you the ultimate authority. I agree with your analysis of TGIQ and can understand your dissatisfaction with it. It seemed like the writers were mocking themselves, the boys AND us. I just want to add my "Thank You" for all the great work you have done on this board and how much that work furthered our understanding of both these series. We all appreciate the hard work, time, and dedication you have given to all the members of this community. And I am very happy to hear that you still feel a great need to explore Spike and the rest of The Whedonverse world. I shall be right there with you. Spike, through the fabulous work of James Marsters and the writers, has connected with my emotions and intellect at a very deep level. For me, he has always been about "the caveman vs the astronaut," but as a symbol of "the possible" not "the eternal instinctive primative." I suppose that the reason I loved him so much was because, more than all the other, he and Buffy were the personification of some of the basic dynamics that rule and run our real time world. They were (irrespective of however they treat him in the finale) the symbols of "Boxes" that kept them both half-alive & half-dead. neither a complete and strong entity. It was only when they found each other, understood each other as real people without the wrappings society and their peers insisted on that they attained free will and self-identity. Rites of Passage - Rites of Intellectual Growth - Rites of Love over Hatred - and the greatest Rite of Passage, Living as a thinking and compassionate being when the world seems to insist that being a "clog in the Normalcy Machine Box" is so much easier. Look forward to Wednesday - and I really saw GinQ as another of Angel's nightmare dreamscapes. It applied somewhat to Spike in the "get on with it mode," but in a twisted reflection of the real depth of his struggle and transformation, not to mention his deep love for Buffy - the death of a million dreams (paraphrase) and the implications of the anguish behind such an idea was what I came away with. Not just for Spike, but for Angel, Wesley and Fred too. I just hope that they don't have anymore references to Buffy and who, where, or what she will end up with - Leave It All In The Hands of The Shippers, they can and will do wonderous tales for all who wish to continue with these great characters. |
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Post by makd on May 10, 2004 19:51:35 GMT -5
Another great review, Nan! Thank you so much for taking the time and the wit to enhance our enjoyment of Angel every week. I'm not only gonna miss the series; I'm gonna miss your reviews, as well. Gravitas. Yes, that's what was missing...the entire A plot was froth, fun, meant to relax us, send us out ready for the heavy. These next two weeks, as we all know, are gonna be heavy. and they're gonna hurt. We've loved having the 'verse in our homes not just for the episode time, but for DVDs, books, fanfic, etc. Long may the 'verse reign, and long, long, long, may you write stories about our favorite "literary" characters. Now, I'm gonna treadmill, grade some more papers (they are endless.), then finish my day catching up on Chapter 14 of Blood Rites...and re-connecting with you (metaphorically), and with Spike, Buffy, Dawn, Willow, Xander, and my new friend, Mike. Who says the spirit of Jane Adams is gone? thanks again, from the bottom of my heart.
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Post by SpringSummers on May 10, 2004 21:49:47 GMT -5
Nan! I loved the review. It was fun, much more so than the ep - and I was glad to get some fun out of that ep. My favorite passage - hard to choose this time, so many good lines:
"Why these gags fall rather flat isn’t due to lack of funny--it’s the result of lack of meaning. Things we viewers have taken most seriously, imagined, and vicariously experienced have been shown here to have no meaning, no value, no gravitas."
Exactly. It's not the lack of funny, it's the lack of meaning. Who gives a hoot about The Immortal and the boys sudden upset over some guy we've never heard of? (*spit*)The Immortal!(*spit*). Let us never speak of him again, because really, who cares?
I loved your ending too - like you, I felt the ep did have a way that both stories tied together, and it could have been mined for meaning . . . but it would have been torture to do it. You were right not to put yourself or us through it. This was the perfect offering for this ep.
You've done our site proud again.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on May 10, 2004 23:04:34 GMT -5
There seems no point in attempting to analyze this as one coherent episode, with related themes running through it in its different segments. Because it’s not.
Impostors, someone taking someone elses place in the heart, change and not change, stuff looking the same on the outside but different on the inside (W&H), people being fooled by appearances. Power, always power. Relying on those that should be your enemies. Clothes do/not make the wo/man. Distorted viewpoints and unreliable narrators.
Theres probably more but I've only just started reading the review. also its not even 5am here. and I dont like this episode.
my point is, all those things are themes in both halves, you just have to dig a lot and it dont encourage one to do so.
edit: and then I look at 'summing up' and it’s about accepting inferior substitutes and you said it better and quicker and tidier. I add this episode to the inferior list.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on May 10, 2004 23:09:23 GMT -5
James Marsters seems to be sporting post-Ryan-Seacrest hair I thought it looked more like submarine hair. which would figure, if Spike often sticks with a look for a few decades at a time.
paragraph about Highlander Immortals, yaay. tacking a sentence about Superstar on the end makes it look like its Highlander thats full of marysues. which you dont mean. right?
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Post by LadyDi on May 10, 2004 23:10:49 GMT -5
It would take a Mr. Too-Good-to-be-True like The Immortal to replace Spike (IMO). Only such a paragon would have any chance. Having said that, I can only hope that things are once again not as they seem in the Jossverse. I am hoping for one more Buffy reference (possibly something to do w/shoes). Great review, Nan. Great new chapter in Blood Rites, too. By all means, carry on!
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Post by beccaelizabeth on May 10, 2004 23:38:15 GMT -5
Calling the interloper “the Immortal” is an attempt to give the character meaning and resonance when the fact is that he has none. disagree. think he is meant to be exactly as 2d and annoying as he turned out to be. He's just a target set up for everyone to hate at once, or a blank screen for fantasies to be projected on to. Not meant as a person. can even see why they did it that way. Just dont like that they did.
the funny fell flat to me partly because of the lack of meaning thing. It deliberately hollowed out what has meant a whole lot to many many. But mostly it was the timing being off, and the fact that I could see them acting and see them trying to be funny. This is an absolute first on Angel, and I dont know how come it went so wrong. Or if it was somehow meant to. But it was the performance in the Rome story that killed it for me. The episode as written I could maybe have enjoyed, but as performed I totally couldnt. Nasty clunky wonky thing.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on May 10, 2004 23:41:07 GMT -5
James Marsters seems to be sporting post-Ryan-Seacrest hairI thought it looked more like submarine hair. which would figure, if Spike often sticks with a look for a few decades at a time. paragraph about Highlander Immortals, yaay. tacking a sentence about Superstar on the end makes it look like its Highlander thats full of marysues. which you dont mean. right? I didn't do the ugly and name the marysues for what they were--but definitely, I didn't mean Highlander had a whole bunch of marysues. Methos is my third favorite character ever, and I wouldn't imply such a thing about any show that he appeared in. Because it would be WRONG!
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Post by Rachael on May 11, 2004 0:31:08 GMT -5
Calling the interloper “the Immortal” is an attempt to give the character meaning and resonance when the fact is that he has none. disagree. think he is meant to be exactly as 2d and annoying as he turned out to be. He's just a target set up for everyone to hate at once, or a blank screen for fantasies to be projected on to. Not meant as a person. can even see why they did it that way. Just dont like that they did. I agree on this, be. I thought that calling him "The Immortal", instead of letting him have a name (I mean, really - "the" Immortal? In a world populated by them? Silly.) was intended to add to the 2-D-ness of the character. We're not supposed to know who he is, or what's really up in Buffy's life. The message (applies with a clunky-ass sledgehammer) is, partly, that Buffy isn't part of the boys' lives any more, and by extension, our lives. So it's none of our damned business who she's dating. Not agreeing, just saying that that's part of the feeling I'm getting from the writers. Who didn't write the Buffy resolutioin at all well. Shoulda skipped it.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on May 11, 2004 6:43:19 GMT -5
Calling the interloper “the Immortal” is an attempt to give the character meaning and resonance when the fact is that he has none. disagree. think he is meant to be exactly as 2d and annoying as he turned out to be. He's just a target set up for everyone to hate at once, or a blank screen for fantasies to be projected on to. Not meant as a person. can even see why they did it that way. Just dont like that they did. the funny fell flat to me partly because of the lack of meaning thing. It deliberately hollowed out what has meant a whole lot to many many. But mostly it was the timing being off, and the fact that I could see them acting and see them trying to be funny. This is an absolute first on Angel, and I dont know how come it went so wrong. Or if it was somehow meant to. But it was the performance in the Rome story that killed it for me. The episode as written I could maybe have enjoyed, but as performed I totally couldnt. Nasty clunky wonky thing. Well, from the pretentious title/name, I got the sense of TA DA and then a door slammed in my face. So I think it works out pretty much the same, either way. So I don' t know that I actually disagree with you on this, beccaeliz', even though the words technically do.
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