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Post by Linda on May 16, 2004 4:59:26 GMT -5
Hi Nan!
Thank You3. I understand that this was a difficult review to write, since you weren't too fond of this episode. I'm even more impressed by your entertaining and eloquent analysis.
And ITA, except for a couple of things:
From the A story: Has Buffy REALLY moved on?
Someone on the main board (can't remember who, though -- sorry!) mentioned that the Immortal's description sounded an awful lot like Angel & Spike (being immortal & straddling good and evil) -- so is Buffy really moving on? Or rebounding with someone as close to her lost loves as possible?
From the B story: I believe that an important question was answered -- Has Wes REALLY moved on?
To me, the most telling indication that Wesley has NOT moved on is that he did not tell the Burkles about Fred. Mr. former Watcher does NOT shirk duties, no matter how hard. And Fred, herself, directed him to speak to her folks about how her death was quick & that she wasn't scared. Also, the Burkles have had some exposure to the supernatural side of LA -- Trish ran over a demon with a bus the last time they came for a visit. And, if Wes had requested it, I believe that Illyria would have given up her imposture and allowed him to prove that she was not-Fred. So, IMO, the only reason he wouldn't tell them was that he believed there was still some undiscovered way to bring Fred back. By allowing Illyria to continue fooling the Burkles with her Fred persona, I believe that Wes has decided to hold onto that agonizing, forlorn hope. No substitutes, but also, not giving up on the real thing.
Linda, who finally rewatched the episode and still didn't like it as much as the others, although JM gave a pretty good effort towards bringing the "A" story up another notch & level & layer ... not his fault it didn't work ...
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on May 16, 2004 8:58:01 GMT -5
Hi Nan! Thank You 3. I understand that this was a difficult review to write, since you weren't too fond of this episode. I'm even more impressed by your entertaining and eloquent analysis. And ITA, except for a couple of things: From the A story: Has Buffy REALLY moved on? Someone on the main board (can't remember who, though -- sorry!) mentioned that the Immortal's description sounded an awful lot like Angel & Spike (being immortal & straddling good and evil) -- so is Buffy really moving on? Or rebounding with someone as close to her lost loves as possible? From the B story: I believe that an important question was answered -- Has Wes REALLY moved on? To me, the most telling indication that Wesley has NOT moved on is that he did not tell the Burkles about Fred. Mr. former Watcher does NOT shirk duties, no matter how hard. And Fred, herself, directed him to speak to her folks about how her death was quick & that she wasn't scared. Also, the Burkles have had some exposure to the supernatural side of LA -- Trish ran over a demon with a bus the last time they came for a visit. And, if Wes had requested it, I believe that Illyria would have given up her imposture and allowed him to prove that she was not-Fred. So, IMO, the only reason he wouldn't tell them was that he believed there was still some undiscovered way to bring Fred back. By allowing Illyria to continue fooling the Burkles with her Fred persona, I believe that Wes has decided to hold onto that agonizing, forlorn hope. No substitutes, but also, not giving up on the real thing. Linda, who finally rewatched the episode and still didn't like it as much as the others, although JM gave a pretty good effort towards bringing the "A" story up another notch & level & layer ... not his fault it didn't work ... Very good points, Linda; and I believe you're right about Wesley's motivation for not exposing Illyria's pretense to the Burkles. However, running down a demon is a one-time fluke, in their way of seeing things. When their daughter IS a demon--has been taken over by a demon--that's rather different. I think they'd have freaked and been very resistent to being persuaded. However, that's a minor disagreement and a minor point (by me) about the episode. The Burkles are there only to be an audience, not to forward the action. Their reaction is important only as it affects Wes, or Illyria (unlikely).
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tkent
S'cubie
"Angel and I have never been intimate...well except that once..." --New fodder for fanfic!
Posts: 21
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Post by tkent on May 17, 2004 19:12:47 GMT -5
WOW! I had no idea that people didn't like this ep! I haven't had a chance to read any reviews of this ep til just now...
Great thoughts and analysis by everyone, now I understand why people didn't like the ep, still not sure I agree though.
I am apparently one of the few that DID like it...
Gonna ramble a bit here, forgive me!
I liked the opposing moods, Dark and dramatic for Fred and Illyria, Comic Farce for the boys...I'm SO GLAD Buffy didn't make an appearance, otherwise it would have been "all about her." (in my opinion anyway). By keeping her out of it, it forces Angela and Spike to figure out how their own relationship, with her and each other without really getting too near the "will she pick me?" side of things.
I think the writers needed to wrap this arc up - hopefuly I won't babble TOO much as I think this through...as I THINK we're seeing the end is going to be about an internal battle (almost corporate) against evil intead of a "Save the World" EPIC type battle. With that in mind, I think they needed to shut down the outside "ties that bind" while also leaving it a little tiny bit open for the future. I've always maintained that that was one issue you could never resolve "satisfactorily" or the buffyverse would cease to exist (the "who gets Buffy" issue).
When Spike's coat was destroyed and then magically he has 11 replacements, my thought was, "The more things change, the more they stay the same." Yes, "THE" coat was about who he was. BUT, the new coats to me just show that HE is who he is. The clothes don't make the man. Angel's "new" coat to me was simply a joke on his normally "stylish" self.
Sure, the Italians were stereotypical, didn't have much of a problem with that really. Some other review mentioned the "God Father" style fight in the dance club. That was a great scene to me, with the "Oh S*#t" look on Spike's face when he clocks Angel. To me, all the farcical (is that a word? LOL) stuff seemed to emphasize the fact that the more the two of them worry about "her" the farther away from the true "path" they become. It was telling me they need to stop monkeying around and get down to business, whether they like it or not.
I also knew deep down that The Immortal would remain unseen and unidentified. Perhaps like someone suggested earlier, Buffy is apparently drawn to a "type." She is also a mortal so has a limited timeframe so of course she must "move on" probably quicker than either of the boys would like. I liked how someone earlier called him 2D, definitely and that's fine. Yeah, she hooked up with someone "above" joe normal but didn't Andrew say, "He's not all that." before he told the boys to get over themselves?
I liked how Fred and Illyria were stuck in their own little world while they discussed the world while the boys were out flying, scootering and running around in it.
So anyway, I wasn't too bothered by cheesy sets/some forced jokes etc. I did like the story overall and thought it was a fairly fitting end to that triangle. An open ended end perhaps.
So anyway, I've enjoyed these reviews and discussions this year immensely. I've only particpated a few times, when I've had the time but will miss this when there's no more new eps to talk about!
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Post by SpringSummers on May 17, 2004 19:56:19 GMT -5
WOW! I had no idea that people didn't like this ep! I haven't had a chance to read any reviews of this ep til just now... Great thoughts and analysis by everyone, now I understand why people didn't like the ep, still not sure I agree though. I am apparently one of the few that DID like it... Gonna ramble a bit here, forgive me! I liked the opposing moods, Dark and dramatic for Fred and Illyria, Comic Farce for the boys...I'm SO GLAD Buffy didn't make an appearance, otherwise it would have been "all about her." (in my opinion anyway). By keeping her out of it, it forces Angela and Spike to figure out how their own relationship, with her and each other without really getting too near the "will she pick me?" side of things. I think the writers needed to wrap this arc up - hopefuly I won't babble TOO much as I think this through...as I THINK we're seeing the end is going to be about an internal battle (almost corporate) against evil intead of a "Save the World" EPIC type battle. With that in mind, I think they needed to shut down the outside "ties that bind" while also leaving it a little tiny bit open for the future. I've always maintained that that was one issue you could never resolve "satisfactorily" or the buffyverse would cease to exist (the "who gets Buffy" issue). When Spike's coat was destroyed and then magically he has 11 replacements, my thought was, "The more things change, the more they stay the same." Yes, "THE" coat was about who he was. BUT, the new coats to me just show that HE is who he is. The clothes don't make the man. Angel's "new" coat to me was simply a joke on his normally "stylish" self. Sure, the Italians were stereotypical, didn't have much of a problem with that really. Some other review mentioned the "God Father" style fight in the dance club. That was a great scene to me, with the "Oh S*#t" look on Spike's face when he clocks Angel. To me, all the farcical (is that a word? LOL) stuff seemed to emphasize the fact that the more the two of them worry about "her" the farther away from the true "path" they become. It was telling me they need to stop monkeying around and get down to business, whether they like it or not. I also knew deep down that The Immortal would remain unseen and unidentified. Perhaps like someone suggested earlier, Buffy is apparently drawn to a "type." She is also a mortal so has a limited timeframe so of course she must "move on" probably quicker than either of the boys would like. I liked how someone earlier called him 2D, definitely and that's fine. Yeah, she hooked up with someone "above" joe normal but didn't Andrew say, "He's not all that." before he told the boys to get over themselves? I liked how Fred and Illyria were stuck in their own little world while they discussed the world while the boys were out flying, scootering and running around in it. So anyway, I wasn't too bothered by cheesy sets/some forced jokes etc. I did like the story overall and thought it was a fairly fitting end to that triangle. An open ended end perhaps. So anyway, I've enjoyed these reviews and discussions this year immensely. I've only particpated a few times, when I've had the time but will miss this when there's no more new eps to talk about! Oh tkent - you are a great poster and I hope you consider sticking around after AtS is gone. I'll still be doing my analyses for discussion of the BtVS eps, and we hope to find something we all like to keep things fresh and alive. Surely one of the Jossverse alums will have something interesting going next Season . . . anyhow, check back now and then, if you get the urge, even post-Angel. I agree with your assessment of the Immortal. Well put. He obviously isn't the long haul guy (if there ever is one, for Buffy).
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tkent
S'cubie
"Angel and I have never been intimate...well except that once..." --New fodder for fanfic!
Posts: 21
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Post by tkent on May 18, 2004 8:20:30 GMT -5
Also, everybody seems to be confused/put off by the appelation "The Immortal". Folks, that is just an inside joke refering to a character by the same name from Ben Edlund's series, "The Tick". In that series, "The Immortal" was a similarly revered character - loved (and bedded) by women and envied by men. I got that joke right away, but I had just finished watching my new "The Tick" series dvd set. I can understand how anyone who hadn't previously watched that show wouldn't get the joke. I am kind of surprised that NO ONE seems to have gotten the joke. I guess "The Tick" was not widely followed. That's too bad because "The Tick" was to superhero shows what "Get Smart" was to spy shows. Really funny, if you like wacky parody - like the TGIQ A story, which I took for the wacky parody that it seemed to be intended. ... OK, I'll stop now. I hope the info. regarding "The Tick" helped clarify the source of "The Immortal" for everybody. Thanks, I can't believe I didn't get that and I REALLY can't believe the hubby didn't catch that, the comic book geek of ALL comic book geeks...He who makes fun of the all the OTHER 40'ish geeks in the comic book store while he's in there getting his weekly fix! LOL... That's what the A side of the ep really struck me as, a parody. >>>>SPOON! (he did catch that reference back in the beginning of the season)
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Post by Karen on May 18, 2004 12:13:17 GMT -5
Thanks, I can't believe I didn't get that and I REALLY can't believe the hubby didn't catch that, the comic book geek of ALL comic book geeks...He who makes fun of the all the OTHER 40'ish geeks in the comic book store while he's in there getting his weekly fix! LOL... That's what the A side of the ep really struck me as, a parody. >>>>SPOON! (he did catch that reference back in the beginning of the season) Spoon? I was wondering about the cutlery. Edit: Oh! I just googled The Tick. SPOON is the Tick's headquarters - and the Tick is blue? Hmmmm. The Mighty Blue Warrior. Oh - and the original Tick was written by Ben Edlund? Huh! One more post, tkent - and you'll be a full-fledged S'cubie!
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tkent
S'cubie
"Angel and I have never been intimate...well except that once..." --New fodder for fanfic!
Posts: 21
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Post by tkent on May 18, 2004 13:31:09 GMT -5
Guess I better post again then!
SPOON! was also the "battlecry" The Tick came up with (at least in the shortlived animated series I saw)...
Yep, the original Tick was written by Ben Edlund and I think we've certainly seen his influence this season, everywhere from Angel killing the butler with a spoon to Gunn "marking his territory" (in my opinion anyway!)...I think we saw it in this ep with the fight at the dance club or chasing the bad guy by motorbike, even if he never went near this ep. The Tick was all about parody, it made fun of super heros. The Tick himself was a big blue bumbler. I think that's exactly what this ep did, knocked the boys down a peg or two. I mean, if you've got loser extradonaire Andrew giving you advice... Granted, this is a change of style from Angel season's past but I kinda like it.
Am I a full-fledged S'cubie yet? LOL
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Post by Karen on May 18, 2004 14:21:20 GMT -5
Guess I better post again then! SPOON! was also the "battlecry" The Tick came up with (at least in the shortlived animated series I saw)... Yep, the original Tick was written by Ben Edlund and I think we've certainly seen his influence this season, everywhere from Angel killing the butler with a spoon to Gunn "marking his territory" (in my opinion anyway!)...I think we saw it in this ep with the fight at the dance club or chasing the bad guy by motorbike, even if he never went near this ep. The Tick was all about parody, it made fun of super heros. The Tick himself was a big blue bumbler. I think that's exactly what this ep did, knocked the boys down a peg or two. I mean, if you've got loser extradonaire Andrew giving you advice... Granted, this is a change of style from Angel season's past but I kinda like it. Am I a full-fledged S'cubie yet? LOL Congrats, S'cubie tkent! I want to echo Spring's post to come around after Angel is off the air. I like your postings! I also liked TGIQ. I think maybe the timing of when it was aired was a little off - so close to the end of the series, but it was a good way to put Buffy to bed, so to speak. Especially since we won't be getting another season to tie up all the loose ends to anybody's satisfaction anyway. See you after the final hour - "Angel's finest"! I hope ME lives up to that promo. Oh, and thanks to the link to GOTR stuff. Nice work you did there for StreetTeam. (p.s. - what happened to your picture?)
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Post by Len on May 20, 2004 17:58:08 GMT -5
Still trying to forget that we've no more Angels left and the massive injustice of canceling the show , so I thought I'd comment on the massive injustice of getting down on an ep that I really liked. Not that I didn't see Nan's points - and I guess humor is subjective - but I really enjoyed this episode - especially the A story in Rome which seems to have incurred the most complaints. I found it to be just a plain fun episode in preparation for the 2 final darker, more intense episodes. I will concede that the light hearted tone of the A story DID clash to some extent with the more serious B story - Wesley dealing with the loss of Fred and his rejection of Illyria's illusion (which, ultimately he embraces on his deathbed). But still - the writers dealt with an impossible issue - trying to somehow resolve the loss of Buffy vis a vis Spike and Angel - and I think they accomplished the best they could under the circumstances. The two impossibilities the writers had to face were (a) the fact that Sarah Michelle Gellar refused to appear for a resolution type episode; and the ever present (b) fact that they can't really wrap things up with too much finality because it would limit their options for future motion pictures and/or TV movies (hint! hint! : . So they came up with the clever conceit of sending our boys on a wild goosechase of the illusive Immortal and Buffy. Giving us just the barest glimpse of "Buffy" on the dance floor was a perfect wink to the fans and a clear compromise over the alternatives of not addressing the Buffy issue or using a stand-in actress (which, personally, if done well, I could have bought). Similarly, given the hype on the Immortal, it would have been a TERRIBLE mistake if they had actually shown him. No actor and no written lines could match the buildup he received (how hilarious was the scene with Darla and Dru!?!). Keeping it all tongue in cheek struck the perfect tone. Otherwise, the episode came off as a perfect homage to Fellini films - from the laid back, carefree, big-breasted CEO of W&H Rome, to her thick framed bespeckled gopher (both character types show up in several Fellini films). Other things I enjoyed: having W&H Rome be a carbon copy of W&H LA, the "Americans and their resorting to violence" running joke, the flashback to Spike in the 50's enjoying himself in Rome (while Angel didn't), and Andrew (a PERFECT sendoff to a thoroughly fun character). I wasn't bothered either by the trashing of Spike's sacred coat. The fact that it's survived 30+ years of adventures without any apparent drycleaning always stretched credulity anyway. Giving him a dozen of them was great! (and for the more serious-minded, their resemblance to the original coat still serves to imbue them with SYMBOLIC meaning). At the end of the day, our boys see they must move on. But it's not such a harsh and serious lesson such that if we get a movie with Buffy, a 100% reversal and return to Buffy pining would be inconsistent or a betrayal of this resolution. For me, this episode hit all the right notes scene after scene. With The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco, one of the really more fun eps of the (sob) final season!
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Post by LadyDi on May 20, 2004 22:00:13 GMT -5
I posted on the spoiler thread I thought this ep. was a set-up for something. I had hoped ME would tip us a wink in one of the final two eps., but no such luck. To give it its due, it does a good job of presenting the boys' differing viewpoints towards Buffy. Angel is still taking her very much for granted, while Spike (who's never been one to give up easily) is all too ready to accept the possibility of Buffy's moving-on. This ep really was more about dealing with Angel and Spike's rivalry (makes sense, they're the ones we're focused on). What's interesting to me is despite Spike's assertion to the contrary, he did not lose Dru to The Immortal. We see them very much together in Rome in the 50s (a terrific visual), and we know they were very much together in SunnyD (until Angelus came out to play). So what are we suppose to infer from this? Is The Immortal too good for his own good? After all, Warren ditched 'April' in I Was Made to Love You because she was too perfect.
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Post by Nuria on Jun 1, 2004 15:09:03 GMT -5
Sorry to be so late with posting, but we have only just had the episode on screen in the UK. My initial reaction was to hate it. At face value it renders meaningless all that went before in Buffy, all the heartbreak and hopelessness of the Angel/Buffy love and all Spike's sacrifice; and it makes Buffy herself just a shallow bimbo waiting for the next uber-vamp to come along. The best interpretation I have been able to come up with is that this is like the Bobby-Dallas situation. The A plot was all a nightmare in the minds of Angel & Spike; losing their girl to the Immortal, a character who haunts their worst nightmares; the scooter is the sort of vehicle one would find in a nightmare (totally inadequate for the task and hopeless at catching up with their fast car), and being caught in those dreadful droopy drawers would be worse even for the dignity of A & S than Willow's recurring nightmare of being naked in an inappropriate situation.
They will wake up in the morning and find that it never happened.
And fun though the Andrew character is, would it not be a nightmare for his two dates to end up on an evening with him (even speaking perfect Italian) leaving Angel and Spike behind!
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jun 1, 2004 20:09:22 GMT -5
Sorry to be so late with posting, but we have only just had the episode on screen in the UK. My initial reaction was to hate it. At face value it renders meaningless all that went before in Buffy, all the heartbreak and hopelessness of the Angel/Buffy love and all Spike's sacrifice; and it makes Buffy herself just a shallow bimbo waiting for the next uber-vamp to come along. The best interpretation I have been able to come up with is that this is like the Bobby-Dallas situation. The A plot was all a nightmare in the minds of Angel & Spike; losing their girl to the Immortal, a character who haunts their worst nightmares; the scooter is the sort of vehicle one would find in a nightmare (totally inadequate for the task and hopeless at catching up with their fast car), and being caught in those dreadful droopy drawers would be worse even for the dignity of A & S than Willow's recurring nightmare of being naked in an inappropriate situation. They will wake up in the morning and find that it never happened. And fun though the Andrew character is, would it not be a nightmare for his two dates to end up on an evening with him (even speaking perfect Italian) leaving Angel and Spike behind! Hello, Nuria, glad you could visit us. Nightmare, I'd buy. Reality, I'm a bit iffy on, in regard to this episode. I think it was the baggy underwear since everybody knows Spike goes commando....
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Post by Queen E on Jun 2, 2004 17:22:05 GMT -5
Still trying to forget that we've no more Angels left and the massive injustice of canceling the show , so I thought I'd comment on the massive injustice of getting down on an ep that I really liked. Not that I didn't see Nan's points - and I guess humor is subjective - but I really enjoyed this episode - especially the A story in Rome which seems to have incurred the most complaints. I found it to be just a plain fun episode in preparation for the 2 final darker, more intense episodes. I will concede that the light hearted tone of the A story DID clash to some extent with the more serious B story - Wesley dealing with the loss of Fred and his rejection of Illyria's illusion (which, ultimately he embraces on his deathbed). But still - the writers dealt with an impossible issue - trying to somehow resolve the loss of Buffy vis a vis Spike and Angel - and I think they accomplished the best they could under the circumstances. The two impossibilities the writers had to face were (a) the fact that Sarah Michelle Gellar refused to appear for a resolution type episode; and the ever present (b) fact that they can't really wrap things up with too much finality because it would limit their options for future motion pictures and/or TV movies (hint! hint! : . So they came up with the clever conceit of sending our boys on a wild goosechase of the illusive Immortal and Buffy. Giving us just the barest glimpse of "Buffy" on the dance floor was a perfect wink to the fans and a clear compromise over the alternatives of not addressing the Buffy issue or using a stand-in actress (which, personally, if done well, I could have bought). Similarly, given the hype on the Immortal, it would have been a TERRIBLE mistake if they had actually shown him. No actor and no written lines could match the buildup he received (how hilarious was the scene with Darla and Dru!?!). Keeping it all tongue in cheek struck the perfect tone. Otherwise, the episode came off as a perfect homage to Fellini films - from the laid back, carefree, big-breasted CEO of W&H Rome, to her thick framed bespeckled gopher (both character types show up in several Fellini films). Other things I enjoyed: having W&H Rome be a carbon copy of W&H LA, the "Americans and their resorting to violence" running joke, the flashback to Spike in the 50's enjoying himself in Rome (while Angel didn't), and Andrew (a PERFECT sendoff to a thoroughly fun character). I wasn't bothered either by the trashing of Spike's sacred coat. The fact that it's survived 30+ years of adventures without any apparent drycleaning always stretched credulity anyway. Giving him a dozen of them was great! (and for the more serious-minded, their resemblance to the original coat still serves to imbue them with SYMBOLIC meaning). At the end of the day, our boys see they must move on. But it's not such a harsh and serious lesson such that if we get a movie with Buffy, a 100% reversal and return to Buffy pining would be inconsistent or a betrayal of this resolution. For me, this episode hit all the right notes scene after scene. With The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco, one of the really more fun eps of the (sob) final season! Len: Thanks. That's one of the best arguments I've read about this episode, and one that I have made too; I, for one, needed the lightheartedness of this episode. Unspoiled as I was, I knew it was going to be dark dark dark. I found it to be delightful and hilarious.
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Post by Linda on Jun 14, 2004 3:58:11 GMT -5
Hi all,
Okay. The following thoughts are not specifically in response to Nan's excellent review. I just decided to post them here because they applied to this episode specifically.
Since this was **not** one of my favorite episodes, I hadn't watched it more than twice until just recently. It is funny. Still not my favorite. However, here are a couple of things that caught my interest upon repeat viewing:
From the A story: For the first time, I think, all intents & screentime being equal, Spike is the protagonist and Angel is the snarky comic foil sidekick who is mirroring Spike rather than the other way around (most obviously with the puffy jacket nonsense). Throughout the Rome scenes, Spike is the one whose feelings are presented with a bit more gravitas (not much more, though), who gets greeted first, who gets the last words, who comes up with the ideas, who asks the important questions, and who drives the chase moped. Angel gets to make the decisions about where to go and when to go, but he’s doing it from the back seat. And Spike gets an extra flashback (Ciao – hee.) It is also a “lesson” that Spike needs more than Angel does – Angel has demonstrably moved on to Cordy & Dog-girl – oops – Nina. Spike has demonstrably NOT (but I think that’s sweet & true & loyal, myself).
From the B story: Illyria ends the episode with the words "As you wish." I honestly believe that this was a deliberate echo of the movie Princess Bride, where the phrase equalled "I love you." Because Illyria began the episode stating that she will not bend to Wes's wishes and ends up doing just that.
Linda, who still enjoys even the worst Jossverse episode more than ANYTHING on TV at the moment ... and this one was not the worst
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