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Post by William the Bloody on Jul 12, 2004 23:39:02 GMT -5
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jul 13, 2004 3:55:11 GMT -5
"Lindsey wants Spike to reenact Angel’s rise from lone defender of the helpless to the top of W&H, supplanting Angel, with himself gliding right on behind as Spike’s trusted right hand." I disagree about Lindsey's plan. I dont think he wanted in to W&H again. Everyone assumed he did, and he didnt say elsewise. I think he had his own game that didnt involve getting tangled like that again. Being a real boy would mean finally having no strings. I think that was what Lindsey was after. But I'd have to dig and twist a bit to support that interpretation. I wasnt entirely happy with how they wrote Lindsey this year. I dont think the failsafe monster onwards was the original version of the plan. I think Lindsey kinda went with the flow after things went wonky on him. Which makes it difficult to figure what he intended. I do agree Lindsey is an entirely plausible candidate for Spike's return. I just think theres a whole different story going on from Lindsey's perspective than the one we saw from following the FG. Us not seeing Angel tell Lorne to shoot Lindsey preserves the surprise so we are shocked along with Lindsey, but it does leave Lorne's motives kind of grey. I mean without having seen it, we dont know for sure Angel told him to do that. But I cant think of a more personal motive Lorne might have to do it neither. So I figure, probably on orders. Maybe not out loud orders? Maybe Lorne picked up from Angel that he wanted Lindsey dead and acted on that? Which would be dumb. But without having seen, theres all this fuzzy unsureness. Vails head exploded with a lack of squishy bits- There were grey bone bits, which is gross, but no squishy pink bits or fountain of blood. He's all dried out. Which explains the need for extra added bodily fluids. 'Because of a final vision given him by Cordelia' I'm pretty sure we're meant to believe that. But I have no idea why Angel believes it. I mean it didnt behave like the visions Doyle and Cordy had. So why did he figure thats what it was? Could have been from anywhere. “Let’s go to work.” good words to end the show with but I'd kinda like it if we had last words that hadnt been the tag line on a totally unrelated movie Of the loose ends list, I don't find roboDad's precise imitation particularly worrying, because theres a spell in GURPS grimoire or basic magic that delivers that exact effect from having some personal belonging or bit of the subject implanted in the golem. Combined history and illusion spells. So if RWP gets his hair cut and doesnt keep the trimmings, robodad could get built. And in canon they said it could be from data from stolen files. So I figure adequate explanation, magic plus science makes cyborg. WHO made the cyborgs should have been explained. Of everything this season, thats the one loose end that really should not have been left dangling. I mean how difficult would it have been to have one of the Circle be the cyborg's creators, and the dubiously good things it did be power plays? If the cyborgs were only meant as a throwaway, trash them properly! If Buffy had definitely for certain learned that Spike was alive then she would have run back to him and that couldnt happen for ooc reasons so that omission I understand. Lindsey needed more explaining. Fred's story we know for sure got shortcircuited by the cancellation, so anything Fred or Illyria related that got dropped is understandable, just irritating. The balance must be ever shifting or else someone would have won by now. But its shifting in humanities favour, because the world belonged to demons once and now it doesnt. How they get out of the alley is what the 4 tv movies are going to be for. she says with happy faith that they will eventually occur. Personally I'd bet on a portal made by Fred-Illyria, because all the pieces are there and it would get the four of them out of the alley without adding anything new or having slayers to the rescue out of the blue or anything. Got all the pieces they need right there, if she only integrates them. After that, 4 of them split up in an alternate dimension, lots of story in how they get back together and get home. good review as ever looking forward to your thoughts on all the older episodes now
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jul 13, 2004 4:56:38 GMT -5
Becca, I agree with you: things are left too fuzzy, in terms of Lindsey's motivation, to be even 50% sure of what he intended. And I agree there's a change when his imposture, re Spike, is disclosed.
The problem with leaving it that way is that Lindsey's plan pretty much drives the whole season. Spike has no particular agenda--he adapts to the circumstances in which he finds himself. Angel just reacts to events: his plans for W & H don't determine or even much influence the season's events. Neither does the Fred/Illyria arc. So it's important, I feel, to come up with some reasonably plausible and coherent explanation of what Lindsey was doing, was after, to make sense of the season as a whole. Only he appears to have a consistent purpose gradually--but incompletely--revealed from one episode to the next. Otherwise the whole Circle of the Black Thorn tale comes out of noplace--introducing a whole new set of baddies, since W & H is pretty much a given, once Angel is in charge. Like the Sisterhood (or whatever it was) thrown in at the last second, as a counter-force to the Watchers' Council, in Buffy the Vampire Slayer. REALLY lame and unconvincing, per me. So I think Lindsey's plan is the key. The problem about it is that we never are shown/told, and now never will be, what it was.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jul 13, 2004 5:03:42 GMT -5
Becca, I agree with you: things are left too fuzzy, in terms of Lindsey's motivation, to be even 50% sure of what he intended. And I agree there's a change when his imposture, re Spike, is disclosed. The problem with leaving it that way is that Lindsey's plan pretty much drives the whole season. Spike has no particular agenda--he adapts to the circumstances in which he finds himself. Angel just reacts to events: his plans for W & H don't determine or even much influence the season's events. Neither does the Fred/Illyria arc. So it's important, I feel, to come up with some reasonably plausible and coherent explanation of what Lindsey was doing, was after, to make sense of the season as a whole. Only he appears to have a consistent purpose gradually--but incompletely--revealed from one episode to the next. Otherwise the whole Circle of the Black Thorn tale comes out of noplace--introducing a whole new set of baddies, since W & H is pretty much a given, once Angel is in charge. Like the Sisterhood (or whatever it was) thrown in at the last second, as a counter-force to the Watchers' Council, in Buffy the Vampire Slayer. REALLY lame and unconvincing, per me. So I think Lindsey's plan is the key. The problem about it is that we never are shown/told, and now never will be, what it was. eetah The Circle thing only just barely worked for me, and if I didnt like the show I'd decide the other way the season was about free will and letting people pull your strings, push your buttons or put their hand up your... puppet hole. But Lindsey seemed to be a free agent. And by making it so he didnt show up on screen he kinda made himself like all those behind the scenes people on that puppet show, or the puppeteers, who are right there on set but dont show up from far away. Player, not played. Lindsey was key.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 13, 2004 6:10:49 GMT -5
Nice job, Nan, and a fitting ending to your season long effort. I especially liked your description of Angel as the tarnished hero and the way you described "The Last Supper." Yes - you really did have to squint really hard. Ah - it has just made me wish all over again that we could have had Season 6. Angel was just so far from through with this part of his journey. Spike, at least, was further along, and I could feel more satisfied with his progress and direction.
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Post by Karen on Jul 13, 2004 6:19:02 GMT -5
Nan - excellent review! I loved your loose end list, and especially your theories as to who was behind Spike's return and why. I agree with your conclusion. I feel that Lindsey was the "big bad" of the season. It was his thirst for the power that was Angel's ("Angel is a major player - you and Lilah are expendable." paraphrased), as told to him from the start, that drove him to bring back Spike and use him to try to make the SP's believe they were "backing the wrong horse." And like you said, Lindsey's "grand design" also shapes the conclusion of the series. It was all about the power.
I think we could take each of your loose ends and come up with theories for years - or at least until Joss gets the chance to explain them with a movie or two. (Please God?) (Maybe a new series?) Until then - we can "wait and hope"!
Thank you for all your reviews this year. To me, they were the hub of S3. {{Nan}}
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jul 13, 2004 10:38:39 GMT -5
Becca, I agree with you: things are left too fuzzy, in terms of Lindsey's motivation, to be even 50% sure of what he intended. And I agree there's a change when his imposture, re Spike, is disclosed. The problem with leaving it that way is that Lindsey's plan pretty much drives the whole season. Spike has no particular agenda--he adapts to the circumstances in which he finds himself. Angel just reacts to events: his plans for W & H don't determine or even much influence the season's events. Neither does the Fred/Illyria arc. So it's important, I feel, to come up with some reasonably plausible and coherent explanation of what Lindsey was doing, was after, to make sense of the season as a whole. Only he appears to have a consistent purpose gradually--but incompletely--revealed from one episode to the next. Otherwise the whole Circle of the Black Thorn tale comes out of noplace--introducing a whole new set of baddies, since W & H is pretty much a given, once Angel is in charge. Like the Sisterhood (or whatever it was) thrown in at the last second, as a counter-force to the Watchers' Council, in Buffy the Vampire Slayer. REALLY lame and unconvincing, per me. So I think Lindsey's plan is the key. The problem about it is that we never are shown/told, and now never will be, what it was. I think you're right about it being Lindsey's plan. The problem is not his plan, so much, as it is the lack of understanding of Spike, which makes the plan weak at its core. It's obvious that all Lindsey's information about Spike dates from the time that Giles is sending regular updates to The Council of Watchers- with another large and misleading chunk from "Checkpoint" (this relating to earlier discussions about the likelihood that The Council of Watchers and W&H had imbedded agents against each other). After that, the information they have would have been at second or third hand at best, and would not have included the interactions he's had with Slayers and Scoobies. No one would predict Spike's behavior correctly based on that data, even with the additional datum of his ensoulment. So Lindsey's plan is contingent on a Spike who is out for the main chance, a hedonist and a brawler. It would be easy to manipulate such a being, but not the Spike who resists Glory's torture, babysits Dawn, lets himself be beaten in "Dead Things", who gives himself up to Buffy's stake in "Sleeper" or volunteers to leave in "First Date". Lindsey's plan doesn't work because he has chosen the wrong tool. So, anyway, great job on the review, Nan, and we do all nneed to get to work now to find out how it really ends! Julia, surprised to have written coherant and on topic sentences, even paragraphs
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Post by lurawan on Jul 13, 2004 13:59:38 GMT -5
Nan does it again! Was wondering what took you so long, but completely sympathize with the reason it did. I just didn't have an action or an inaction that would make it not true that Angel had indeed been cancelled. (sigh) I have been toying with this, however: If you look really closely, DID Angel acutally sign *his* name on the Shanshu? It seems sloppy and unclear, smudged in the blood. Remember Angel telling Connor he has really good handwriting? Remember all the other times we saw Angel sign things in blood where the signature was REALLY clear (one time with Gunn, I believe). Other times we've seen his hand, on the note "upstairs" he left for Giles (well, that was really Angelus, I guess); the inscription "Always" in the book of poetry he gave to Buffy.... I guess the point is, what if he DIDN'T sign away his right to the Shanshu? Lots of other things might not be what they at first seem, either. Your analysis as always was insightful and thoughtful and thought provoking.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jul 13, 2004 14:28:07 GMT -5
Nan - excellent review! I loved your loose end list, and especially your theories as to who was behind Spike's return and why. I agree with your conclusion. I feel that Lindsey was the "big bad" of the season. It was his thirst for the power that was Angel's ("Angel is a major player - you and Lilah are expendable." paraphrased), as told to him from the start, that drove him to bring back Spike and use him to try to make the SP's believe they were "backing the wrong horse." And like you said, Lindsey's "grand design" also shapes the conclusion of the series. It was all about the power. I think we could take each of your loose ends and come up with theories for years - or at least until Joss gets the chance to explain them with a movie or two. (Please God?) (Maybe a new series?) Until then - we can "wait and hope"! Thank you for all your reviews this year. To me, they were the hub of S 3. {{Nan}} Thanks, Karen. Hope you weren't holding your breath waiting for this one!
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Post by Karen on Jul 13, 2004 14:49:08 GMT -5
Thanks, Karen. Hope you weren't holding your breath waiting for this one! LOL! I was - how did you know? I was just about to IM you and offer support and sympathy - and kick your butt into gear. (just kidding about the last part)
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Post by Queen E on Jul 13, 2004 15:03:41 GMT -5
Nan - excellent review! I loved your loose end list, and especially your theories as to who was behind Spike's return and why. I agree with your conclusion. I feel that Lindsey was the "big bad" of the season. It was his thirst for the power that was Angel's ("Angel is a major player - you and Lilah are expendable." paraphrased), as told to him from the start, that drove him to bring back Spike and use him to try to make the SP's believe they were "backing the wrong horse." And like you said, Lindsey's "grand design" also shapes the conclusion of the series. It was all about the power. I think we could take each of your loose ends and come up with theories for years - or at least until Joss gets the chance to explain them with a movie or two. (Please God?) (Maybe a new series?) Until then - we can "wait and hope"! Thank you for all your reviews this year. To me, they were the hub of S 3. {{Nan}} Nan hits it out of the park again, although this time your made us stew in anticipation. You made some really excellent points about Lindsey's plan and how up the air and lacking a central motivating factor you could really sink your teeth into. I really believe that when the show either comes back as a midseason replacement or the 'verse is further explored in movies, we might understand a bit more of the cause. I'm certain that's what Season 6 was slated to cover. In many ways, it reminds me of Season 3, which ended with so much confusion, misunderstandings, and mystery on the parts of the characters.
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Post by Haunt on Jul 13, 2004 16:29:15 GMT -5
I've been dying in anticipation of your final review Nan, and you don't disappoint. Fantastic.
The loose ends for the most part don't overly concern me. I tend to write them off as casualties of cancellation. If there's been a sixth season I suspect at least SOME of these questions might have been answered.
(On the subject of the cyborg ninjas of doom, however... I'd read somewhere someone mentioning that the cyborg Wes and Roger were examining before it almost blew up had the symbol of the Circle of the Black Thorn in its chest. Is that true? I don't happen to have that episode available for reviewing, sadly...)
Now, since there are always questions and/or suggestions about "what if" with a sixth season, and since I've got a few ideas about what I personally think could happen if the show came back (or there was a spin-off, telefilm, whatever), where would be the most appropriate forum hereabouts to share my ideas?
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jul 13, 2004 18:47:03 GMT -5
I've been dying in anticipation of your final review Nan, and you don't disappoint. Fantastic. The loose ends for the most part don't overly concern me. I tend to write them off as casualties of cancellation. If there's been a sixth season I suspect at least SOME of these questions might have been answered. (On the subject of the cyborg ninjas of doom, however... I'd read somewhere someone mentioning that the cyborg Wes and Roger were examining before it almost blew up had the symbol of the Circle of the Black Thorn in its chest. Is that true? I don't happen to have that episode available for reviewing, sadly...) Now, since there are always questions and/or suggestions about "what if" with a sixth season, and since I've got a few ideas about what I personally think could happen if the show came back (or there was a spin-off, telefilm, whatever), where would be the most appropriate forum hereabouts to share my ideas? Come join the general discussion on the "Main" board: scubiefan.proboards18.com/index.cgi?board=generalThe highest numbered Part, (almost) always at the top, is where we hang out and discuss anything that interests, whether from the Jossverse, RealLife, or the imaginary country of Erinland, where Fred is still alive and well. It's just off the Thrall Room, where hijinks have been known to occur, frequently sparked by Matthew, who has been known to turn into a giant spirit anteater, Antubis, from time to time. I am not gonna mention the ostriches. We'd all be happy to hear your ideas about S6, and some may find them so intriguing that discussion ensues. You're most welcome to hop on over, Haunt. And thanks for your kind words about my review. I was very reluctant to do it, and now it's done, freeing me to procrastinate about something else.
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Post by LadyDi on Jul 13, 2004 19:09:40 GMT -5
Nan - can totally sympathize w/your reluctance, but glad to see your final AtS review nonetheless. Right with you on the loose ends as well. Cursing the WB (toying with the idea of making that literal) for mucking things up. From what JW's said, I think s6 was planned to be the last season. Also twigged to the biblical references made during the meeting at Spike's. Never really imagined Angel as a Christ-like figure myself. Still, interesting that Spike should be playing St. Peter. Could Spike really be Angel's rock? It fits w/Spring's notion that Spike would serve a similar function here as on BtVS (w/o the mind-blowing sex). Also makes sense considering Spike finds himself in a very similar sitch here as in BtVS s4 & s5, reluctantly becoming part of a group reluctant to have him. As for Buffy, I can only imagine she was supposed to find out about Spike's return from Andrew after TGiQ. There's no way in this or any other dimension she could be indifferent about it if she knew. Am feeling sorely cheated out of an on-screen reunion! OTOH, it leaves me free to imagine my own version (smoochies are key).
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Post by J Smith on Jul 13, 2004 19:17:52 GMT -5
Dear Dan:
Enjoyed your analysis, and I loved the concluding questions
Whedon may be gambling/hoping that he can continue the Whedonverse in some way. I.E. the possible telemovies.
From previous reports, what we saw whas mostly planned as a season finale rather than a series ending with the exception of Wesley dying.
If by some miracle, Whedon gets the movies going, I wouldn't be suprised if Wesley gets miraculously resurrected. There's still a great deal of material to be resolved. And like a few others, I do wonder how much of Fred is lurking underneath Illeryias surface.
Still, I'm not sure if Whedon can be trusted to ever give a "happy ending" on anything even on his other shows, since he has a track record of not believing in them. Still I do wish he could have a more positive spin on things, rather than leaving things on a dour note. Despite what everyone says, I do feel it was a suicide mission, even though Angel couldn't wait to get to the dragon.
If there had been a sixth season, I do think Illyeria would have tried to do a power grab with the absence of Wolfram and Hart. Remember, she did say something "about ruling all, and being loved." Even Angel or was it Wesley saying about her never trying to stop conquer everything.
That might have been part of the dichotomy. The Illyeria starting plans to "take over," while the Fred side of her would start reemerging; putting ol' Wes in more of a quandry. That's if there would have been a sixth season.
Dan: Love your analysis, hope to see more of your work in the future.
Why do I hate that word "occult" as in Josh Whedon's "occult" world?
Sincerely,
JThree carolyn@dia.net
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