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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 5, 2004 16:35:06 GMT -5
This is the thread for overall thoughts about Season 5, overall, now that it's over. Don't hesitate to use it or to comment on the thoughts posted here.
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Post by Linda on Oct 6, 2004 7:19:11 GMT -5
Dear Nan:
Thanks so much for sharing space on your thread for random AtS discussion. Your AtS analyses this past season deepened the meaning each episode held for me and increased my enjoyment tenfold.
And I'm not exaggerating, btw. Prior to finding S3 and the analyses sheltered here, I was more inclined to view the episodes for the funny and "turgid supernatural soap opera" features rather than the deeper story behind the story.
So: Thanks for everything.
Linda, analysis fan -- which I never would've believed a little over a year ago
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Post by Linda on Oct 6, 2004 7:23:20 GMT -5
October 1, 2004:
Hi again:
I was thinking that this could be kinda relevant since TNT is rerunning AtS Season Five beginning this week. Please feel free to skip this post, though. It's just a rehash of the season. A few parts ago, someone posted a link to The Deadly Hook's LJ entry and discussion about the AtS Season 5 overall story. While she made some interesting observations, I kinda got the feeling that she was missing the point. The thing that stood out for me was the fact that she seems to consider Illyria to be an arbitrary story element / character. I disagree.
Here's what I see as the meta-story for AtS Season 5: Joss was commenting about the power elite of American society. Or perhaps our acceptance of that power elite. The members of the Black Thorne were representatives of entrenched power: ArchDuke Sebassis represented power through social & blood connections. Senator B represented power through political connections. Magnus Hainsley represented power through behind-the-scenes manipulations. (Yes, I know he died in the 2nd ep, but I'm sure he was a member.) Izzy represented power through business connections. The Fell Brethren represented power through a willingness to sacrifice others. Vail, always different (and so still alive IMHO -- shameless Greggist plug), represents power maintained through mass-delusion. (This thought just occurred to me as I type: he's the news / entertainment industry? Dayum.)
Another layer: the Black Thorne could also represent Angel's "sins." Sebassis would be his sin of arrogant entitlement. Senator B, his grab for power. Magnus Hainsley, his hidden manipulations. Izzy, his acceptance of W&H power. The Fell Brethren, his willingness to sacrifice others without their consent. And Vail, his willingness to lie to himself and others. ('Nother Greggist plug: repented of all sins except the last, so Vail's still alive along with Wes.)
As for our heroes, just as Willow represented Buffy's spirit, Xander her heart, Giles her mind, Dawn her innocence and Spike her Slayerness, <ETA: thanks to Spring for her illuminating analyses & posts on this subject> I believe that Wes, Gunn, Fred, Lorne and Spike each represent an important aspect of Angel. (Please blame Erin for my obsession with Aspects -- it's certainly not MY fault...) I admit I may be wrong, especially since I have not looked at the previous seasons of Angel through this prism. Regardless, I am certain that the Aspects would have been reconfigured this season, since Spike is an entirely new element in the series. I believe that Wes represents Angel's mind / intellect; Gunn, his will to fight; Fred, his heart; Lorne, his empathy; and Spike, his champion-ness.
Consider what happens to each of them in the course of the season: Wes was incrementally unbalanced by the consequences of his and Angel's decisions -- and then he was "killed" by the Big Dumb Plan. Gunn was distracted and then corrupted by the trappings of power -- and then repented and tried to atone for his sins. Fred, who was the only one to connect the Fang Gang to each other, was attacked from within, then slowly & excruciatingly turned into a hollow, hardened shell. The shell, Illyria, was obsessed with power -- although when she loses her power over everything except herself, she learns about love. Lorne was distracted by the happy lies that are the entertainment industry and then his opinions were pretty much ignored by Angel even unto the very end (IMO). Spike started out as spirit, having been rendered more or less ineffectual as a consequence of using Angel's W&H amulet (though with exceptions due to sheer will.) He becomes solid only when the issue of the Shanshu comes up. For the most part, he remained immune to the seduction of power, though not to the seduction of rewards -- until Fred's death. After that, he committed himself to doing what was right.
I believe that all of the above mirrored Angel's inner journey which began with his acceptance and use of W&H power. And through AtS Season 5, I believe Joss also has commented about his and our acceptance of the status quo. Made explicit IMO, with Underneath's depiction of suburbia as Purgatory and the fact that The Apocalypse is ongoing. (Side note: Angel saw suburbia as a reward, while Spike saw it as Hell.)
I know that the above is presented somewhat sketchily and unsupported by examples, but I thought it would be interesting to keep in mind as the reruns unfolded on TNT for the next few weeks.
I am not feeling at all dogmatic about the above, so I would love to hear any alternate interpretations if anybody has 'em. 'Cause I know there *is* such a layer to Joss' storytelling. The guy is just too much of a control "enthusiast" to have only one layer to any work that has his name on it.
Side note: I love big patterns, but sometimes boiling things down to their essence makes 'em sound boring, doesn't it? 'Cause eeetah with Julia about Jossverse stories doing the "meat & potatoes" sheer entertainment side so well. It makes the stuff going on underneath so much more difficult to notice due to the distraction of all the pretty and funny and heartbreaking things happening onscreen.
Linda, determined to fix her home computer this weekend, although I may decide to buy a sledgehammer as the main tool for said fix
P.S. Many thanks to those who commented on this post back in Part 291. I have quoted your posts here as well. I may have missed a couple of posts, for which I apologize. However, if I have taken an unacceptable liberty by quoting you over here, please IM me and I will delete it (or feel free to ask your friendly neighborhood Technopagan to do so). I just thought that the points brought up were excellent.
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Post by Linda on Oct 6, 2004 7:25:38 GMT -5
In Part 291, Nan said: Hi Nan! Thank you for your comments! I really appreciate that you can be so encouraging even while disagreeing with me. <== Happy, blushy smiley You are very possibly right about the slap-dashery of the season. I think that Joss can be something of an opportunist when it comes to utilizing story elements. This hindsight thing can be distorting. The main reason that I get the feeling that it is Joss & ME's intention to have the supporting characters mirror the main character's internal journey actually stems from an almost offhand comment that Joss made on the commentary track of Wild at Heart from the BtVS Season 4 DVD set. He said that the story of Oz's leaving was the only one they'd ever done in which the things which happened to Willow and Oz did NOT mirror or connect back to Buffy's inner development. Which implied that it *did* in all of the other episodes. Eetah with you that what was intended is not always what we see, though. Regarding the Black Thorn members: I actually do see a reason why each one was selected to be a part of the cabal. Throughout the season -- Sebassis, Izzy, the Fell Brethren, Senator B., Vail -- these were the ones to whom Angel deferred as a direct result of their power over his W&H position (or, in Vail's case, the original reason he was there in the first place). And this was in spite of their obvious evilness. Each occasion caused Angel, I believe, to chip away at his personal principles in order to do so. All the other evil-doers were more or less defeated or at least neutralized. The one exception to the list of SP-connected Black Thorners: Magnus Hainsley. Angel did NOT defer to him, and he had the most direct Power over Angel -- power over the dead. This is the thing that hit me when I re-watched Just Rewards this past week: the defeat of Hainsley was a mirror of Angel's Big Dumb Plan, with Spike (the questionable champion) standing in for Angel. Like Angel, Spike gave every appearance of having betrayed them all. Spike basically inhabited the skin of a Power Player and gave Angel the chance to behead him. Just as Angel inhabited the form of a Power Player and gave the Gang the opportunity to behead the SP's Council on this plane of existence. So: Foreshadowing? Opportunism? Or recycling? It's fun keeping things like this in the back of my mind as I re-watch the season. I could very well be proven wrong, but it's *neat* when a new piece seems to fit the pattern. (Why yes, I *am* a geek.) Linda, of the three, I favor foreshadowing. But I admit that I could be giving Joss too many genius points ...
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Post by Linda on Oct 6, 2004 7:27:29 GMT -5
In Part 292, Julia said:
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Post by Linda on Oct 6, 2004 7:39:03 GMT -5
In Part 291, Spring said: Hi Spring: Eetah for the most part, except for Vail being dead -- doornail-y or otherwise . And I completely understand about the loss of BtVS. I feel a bit more of an emotional distance from AtS, possibly since Spike is not as emotionally engaged here. In my case, the distance is what probably makes my viewings of AtS a bit more analytical than before.
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Post by Linda on Oct 6, 2004 7:40:54 GMT -5
In Part 291, Lola said:
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Post by Linda on Oct 6, 2004 7:42:25 GMT -5
In Part 291, Shan quoted Nan and said:
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Post by Linda on Oct 6, 2004 7:44:49 GMT -5
From Part 291, Matthew said:
Hi Matthew!
Thank you, sir, for the kind words.
As to the cyborgs, I have no clue. Perhaps they were left as a loose end for possible usage in Season Six. They could be plausibly retconned to be either good or evil, after all.
I'm not sure what purpose they would serve in the machinations of the Black Thorn, though, if they (the BT) were privy to SP plans and the cyborg-ninja goal seemed to be kidnapping Angel and subverting his will. Hmmm...an end run around Wesley's vigilance, maybe. Gotta think on it.
And sending heal-y thoughts your way. Weasels be damned.
Linda, only dealing with a sick computer this time around.
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Post by Linda on Oct 6, 2004 7:46:42 GMT -5
From Part 291, beccaelizabeth said: Hi becca! Thank you for your "cool." I'm feeling the happy blushy smiley ==> And aha! I like your Lorne thoughts. You're right about his future reading. I'm inclined toward Hope. *neat* Sometimes I think of him as Mercy, too, since that's also something Angel is missing. And that was Angel's interpretation of the meaning of "caritas" (Lorne's old karaoke bar). Also: Yay! On your new laptop! For the school stuff, of course. Linda, *not* jealous of the new computer at all. Nope, not at *all* durnit.
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Post by Linda on Oct 6, 2004 7:49:58 GMT -5
From Part 291, Karen said:
Thank you for your kind remarks about my AtS season Five thoughts.
Regarding the lack / destruction of the female element in Season 5: I dunno. I don't believe that Joss is a misogynist. (But eeetah with Rachael about the sheer number of demon pregnancy storylines in AtS over the course of the series.) The Cordy situation in Season 5 was, I believe, an unfortunate result of some real life issues affecting the Season 4 storyline. (Not gonna talk about Cordy/Connor either, 'cause, ick.) As for Fred, well, I think that Joss needed to have the most painful consequence imaginable occur before Angel started coming back from the wrong turn he took. And I believe that Fred was chosen, not because she was the damsel in distress, but because she was the strongest character, morally and spiritually in the group AND she connected them all to each other. I don't consider any of it to be female bashing, since Spike went through a great deal of torment, especially in BtVS Season 7, and came through as one of the richest, most layered and heroic fictional characters -- well, ever. (IMHO.) I really feel that Joss is an equal opportunity tormentor.
And too bad Eve ended up being such a non-entity. I wish they had chosen Christina Hendricks (Bridge-Saff-Yo, aka Saffron from Firefly) to play Eve as Sara suggested in her Our Mrs. Reynolds review. Or some other actress with more chemistry than Sarah Thompson. And there was potential for Harmony's storyline. But I think she would have had to have gone through some pretty painful things before she acquired the depth of character to hold her own with everyone else as something other than comic relief.
Linda, and btw that is one creepy avatar you got there!
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Post by Linda on Oct 6, 2004 7:51:58 GMT -5
And then in Part 292, Karen said:
Hi Karen!
I think you expressed your thoughts very well. I admit I haven't looked at it quite like that, so thanks! New angles are always welcome.
IIRC, there were very few one-on-one conversations between Angel & Fred in Season Five. Except the memorable Hellbound confrontation in which Fred stared Angel down. And Fred's corporate contributions seemed to be limited to science things and not the important "What should we do next?" decisions, except when Angel consulted with *all* of them. So yeah, I think you're on to something here.
Linda, although, not so awake right now…
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Post by Linda on Oct 6, 2004 7:54:26 GMT -5
On October 5, 2004:
Hi all!
I couldn't resist watching The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco. And then I had to stop and think and suddenly it's 2 am.
So this is what hit me about the episode from the perspective of Season's end: the cautionary part was not that Angel would become No. 5, but that he would become Texcatcatl. Texcatcatl started out as a warrior. Not necessarily evil, since Aztecs were pretty brutal themselves (as Wes seemingly unnecessarily pointed out). Until his grab for power. It is his quest for power that made him into an evil heart-sucking monster. A vampire, in fact: immortal until his skewered-heart dusty defeat.
So, the exploration of Angel's possible paths seemed threefold to me: Texcatcatl, the power-grabber; No. 5, who lost his heart & Spike. Yep, Spike, who seemed to me to embody the true hero's path in this episode. In his little talk with Fred, Spike (honestly, I believe) shrugged off his heroism: I just stood there and let the fire come. Fred had to point out that he had saved her life before he saw it in a more heroic light.
However: what can be more heroic than taking a stand and letting the fire come? And it *is* heroic because the fire did not come from without, like some freight train barrelling toward him, but from within, his passion and his soul. It was an active choice, not the passive choice that it initially sounds like. Spike stood his ground against the forces of the Hellmouth, even as the fire he himself supplied consumed him, with no thought of an afterwards or a reward, just because it was right and he believed it would save the people he loved.
From that scene with Fred and Spike, we cut to Angel awkwardly bothering Wes about finding out more on the heart-sucking monster. So that he can stop him. Because that's what he does. Certainly heroes do that. But so do warriors. So, not inherently heroic, here. It echoes what seems to many of us S'cubies to be Angel's problem of late: he beats the bad guys, he doesn't save people, except as a consequence of his bad-guy beating.
I believe that No. 5 *did* become a hero in the end. Not because he was instrumental in killing Texcatcatl (he wasn't, except indirectly), but because he entered the fight to save Angel and in doing so, lost his own life. So Angel seems to be doing the reverse of the hero-thing: he's supposed to save people first and beat the bad guys only as a consequence of the saving. Not the other way around.
Oh, and Texcatcatl? He'll be back. His defeat wasn't the point. The fight against him was the point. I believe it's the point of the entire series, in fact: you can never stop fighting.
I hope the above makes as much sense as it did when I first sat down to write it.
And there was a bunch more stuff about head (Angel & Wes & No. 5) vs. heart (Spike & Fred), but: 2:30 am.
Linda, catching up later, I guess.
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Post by Linda on Oct 6, 2004 8:05:13 GMT -5
Hi again! This thought occurred to me after I finished my main post on The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco: in this episode, both Spike and Angel want the Shanshu. But, I think, for different reasons. Spike wants the Shanshu so that he can live. Angel wants the Shanshu so that he can die. When Angel watched No. 5 fade away in the company of his beloved brothers, it seemed that THIS was his idea of a final reward -- to die in the arms of his family. I feel as though it is not the heroism, but the *final* reward that reawakens his interest in the Shanshu. I hope I'm wrong. But if I'm not, then maybe the signing away of the Shanshu in the end was not such a bad thing for Angel. Why yes, I had this thought at 4am. Does it show? Also: In my earlier Numero Cinco post, I mentioned that I thought the "Cautionary" applied to Texcatcatl and not No. 5. So the "Numero 5" in the title could actually apply to AtS Season 5 instead. The episode was a microcosm of the Angel issues they dealt with throughout the entire season. I'm having much retroactive increased respect for Jeffrey Bell. And thank you for your kind words, beccaelizabeth, cal, Sara, Anne, Julia, Karen, Lola, Erin and anyone else I have unintentionally missed. I hope you don't live to regret encouraging me... And an essay? Scary. to Nan, Spring, Sara, Erin, Sue, Vlad & other analysis goddesses and gods for their wonderful, insightful work. This stuff doesn't feel finished yet, and I am not absolutely certain that it will stand up after a full season's re-watch. Linda, will you look at the time -- I am so consistent P.S. Yes, Sue, I have posted this in Nan's thread, too
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Post by Linda on Oct 6, 2004 8:58:14 GMT -5
In Part 293, Julia said:
Hi Julia!
I think you described Spike's heroism better than I did.
Thanks for the compliments and computer commiseration.
Linda, alliterative at 4 am
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