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Post by Lola m on Oct 6, 2004 17:03:28 GMT -5
<snipped for space> Here's what I see as the meta-story for AtS Season 5: Joss was commenting about the power elite of American society. Or perhaps our acceptance of that power elite. The members of the Black Thorne were representatives of entrenched power: ArchDuke Sebassis represented power through social & blood connections. Senator B represented power through political connections. Magnus Hainsley represented power through behind-the-scenes manipulations. (Yes, I know he died in the 2nd ep, but I'm sure he was a member.) Izzy represented power through business connections. The Fell Brethren represented power through a willingness to sacrifice others. Vail, always different (and so still alive IMHO -- shameless Greggist plug), represents power maintained through mass-delusion. (This thought just occurred to me as I type: he's the news / entertainment industry? Dayum.) Wanted to make another comment on this portion of your post. Because I think you've hit a very important aspect of AtS arc or theme for season 5, "power-elite" as you say (huh - it always about power), and/or the power of corporate structure on society and individuals. Add this to, as Spring mentions, Angel's struggle with the Angelus part of him and you have a very interesting metaphor for adult life - especially in the "big city". Working for a large institution, having to sometimes be "two people" - the corporate you and the personal you. Balancing home and work or perhaps seeing a pull between personal ethics / feelings and corporate goals of profitability, etc. Since I've always felt that one of AtS underlying themes is "facing adulthood", I am undoubtedly putting my own spin on it, but still . . . . Very interesting thoughts from everyone! Lola
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Oct 8, 2004 0:53:50 GMT -5
Had a thought, about Ats season 5 and everyone representing stuff. Fred was the inventor of the group. She would take a bunch of bits and pieces and put them together to make something new. Problem solver. Probably the only problem solver among them, since the others were more like problem eliminators. So, Fred gets dead, the group no longer has that capacity.
She was also the only one with a normal life and a home and nothing hugely wrong in her past. She had something to go back to, which made it easier to believe in a normal life, a happy ending or a good outcome.
The others, not so much. So the dumbness of the big dumb plan, think breaking is the only option left and have forgotten how to make a new and better thing.
Of course Fred was also the post traumatic crazy agoraphobic girl, afraid of being part of the world cause the world was scary. She had grown out of that a lot by season 5, but it is a big reflection of Angel before then. Angel was more afraid of what he would do to the world than what it would do to him, but still, afraid. Trying to hide. By season 5 he was connected to more people than ever, but in much more shallow ways. Lorne ways, party guy, trying to keep everyone happy when you really want to kill them.
I get why Lorne never had a girlfriend (or whatever, a romance I mean). Not because green guys get no love, but because most of his connections stayed so shallow, and all about the person he was helping, not so much his needs. Does not a happy romance make. And as an Angel reflection? Pretty clear in the party ep.
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Post by cancergirl41 on Jun 15, 2005 13:41:34 GMT -5
Honestly, I really don't know what to make of Season 5. I truly don't. Hmmm.
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Post by Rachael on Jun 15, 2005 14:19:26 GMT -5
Honestly, I really don't know what to make of Season 5. I truly don't. Hmmm. S'okay. What I make of it is - it's incomplete. The story wasn't over, and yet it also wasn't modified to make it end satisfactorily. And hi, and welcome - drop by the main board for a bit if you have time, 'cause we welcome topicy discussions there, as well.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jun 15, 2005 16:01:57 GMT -5
Honestly, I really don't know what to make of Season 5. I truly don't. Hmmm. S'okay. What I make of it is - it's incomplete. The story wasn't over, and yet it also wasn't modified to make it end satisfactorily. And hi, and welcome - drop by the main board for a bit if you have time, 'cause we welcome topicy discussions there, as well. cancergirl4, I'm in full agreement with Rachael here. It's hard to make complete sense of Season 5, because I think much of it was set-up for a Season 6 that we never got to see. Also, I am in agreement with her on inviting you over to the main board, anytime!
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Post by Onjel on Jun 15, 2005 16:12:51 GMT -5
S'okay. What I make of it is - it's incomplete. The story wasn't over, and yet it also wasn't modified to make it end satisfactorily. And hi, and welcome - drop by the main board for a bit if you have time, 'cause we welcome topicy discussions there, as well. cancergirl4, I'm in full agreement with Rachael here. It's hard to make complete sense of Season 5, because I think much of it was set-up for a Season 6 that we never got to see. Also, I am in agreement with her on inviting you over to the main board, anytime! Ditto. It just felt rushed, you know? And ditto with regard to coming over to the main thread! #welcome#
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Post by Queen E on Jun 15, 2005 17:06:50 GMT -5
Damn, Linda, you are just fully of awesomely shiny thoughts!
I really don't have much to add, except a slight mwah ha ha on the "aspects" thing.
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Post by cancergirl41 on Jun 17, 2005 13:16:24 GMT -5
Honestly, I really don't know what to make of Season 5. I truly don't. Hmmm. S'okay. What I make of it is - it's incomplete. The story wasn't over, and yet it also wasn't modified to make it end satisfactorily. And hi, and welcome - drop by the main board for a bit if you have time, 'cause we welcome topicy discussions there, as well. I guess that was the main problem I had with Season 5. The last few episodes seemed rushed . . . yet, incomplete to me. By the way, here is an essay I had found about Season 5: www.slayage.tv/essays/slayage16/Kaveney.htm
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Post by Lola m on Jun 17, 2005 16:28:27 GMT -5
S'okay. What I make of it is - it's incomplete. The story wasn't over, and yet it also wasn't modified to make it end satisfactorily. And hi, and welcome - drop by the main board for a bit if you have time, 'cause we welcome topicy discussions there, as well. I guess that was the main problem I had with Season 5. The last few episodes seemed rushed . . . yet, incomplete to me. By the way, here is an essay I had found about Season 5: www.slayage.tv/essays/slayage16/Kaveney.htm Very interesting essay! I particularly liked: the points about the "slingshot" season enders of AtS; their thoughts on the re-introduction of Anne; the commentary about Gunn (like noting that Gunn's musical themes parallell Angel's - we've talked about Gunn and Angel mirroring each other); and, of course, the comments regarding Spike. Trickster truth-teller, warrior poet. Gosh - insights into Illyria and Wes - my! Excellent essay! I need to print this out and read in more depth.
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Post by Queen E on Jun 17, 2005 16:39:27 GMT -5
I guess that was the main problem I had with Season 5. The last few episodes seemed rushed . . . yet, incomplete to me. By the way, here is an essay I had found about Season 5: www.slayage.tv/essays/slayage16/Kaveney.htm Very interesting essay! I particularly liked: the points about the "slingshot" season enders of AtS; their thoughts on the re-introduction of Anne; the commentary about Gunn (like noting that Gunn's musical themes parallell Angel's - we've talked about Gunn and Angel mirroring each other); and, of course, the comments regarding Spike. Trickster truth-teller, warrior poet. Gosh - insights into Illyria and Wes - my! Excellent essay! I need to print this out and read in more depth. Don't forget the endnote: "However, remarks by Alexis Denisof in interview that he likes the character of Wesley so much that he would always be prepared to play him again may indicate that this self-sacrificing death, like Spike’s, may not be all it seems, ‘Parting Gifts: Interview with Alexis Denisof’, Official Angel Magazine, 13 (2004), pp. 10–16. "
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jul 14, 2005 4:29:57 GMT -5
I have been pretty "out of it," of late, and so I'm just reading all this fine commentary instigated and respectfully removed to this thread by Linda, to be a more closely connected discussion than it was scattered through the Parts.
Thank you, Linda, for your thoughts and your proactive preservation of this discussion. I'm also more disengaged toward AtS than I was toward the later seasons of BtVS; that doesn't seem to make me see the meta better--it just makes me less involved. So I'm probably seeing the meta elements less clearly than others are--you, in particular.
However, I think the the buried mirroring of the characters in the Jossverse is part of the reason any Joss-directed series holds together so well, seems so much one united thing under even the most casual attention. So the *idea* of the meta connections, if not some of those meta interpretations, has persuaded that you're right, Linda--your approach is more fruitful of accurate insight than mine.
Hmm. I need to get more sensitive to meta, I see!
Again, thanks to all, but particularly Linda, for this present and connected discussion. May new insights continue to gather here.
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Post by RAKSHA on Jul 21, 2005 0:51:51 GMT -5
I loved most of Season 5, but do think the ending could have been better; it did feel a bit rushed to me, not to mention I thought that Whedon could have opted for a less cliffhangerish ending to the entire series; since he knew of its cancellation in time to make alterations.
I soooo wish there had been a Season 6 to tie up the series.
[shadow=pink,left,300]GAIL[/shadow]
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Post by LadyDi on Jul 21, 2005 18:57:34 GMT -5
I soooo wish there had been a Season 6 to tie up the series.
[shadow=pink,left,300]GAIL[/shadow] You're not alone there. It's especially frustrating b/c Joss said he had "other ideas" (besides the Shanshu) for Spike. Joss being so coy, we never really got a clue what would become of him. If not the Shanshu, or a Higher Being, then what? I'd missed Joss' comments about s6 being Mad Max-ish. It sorta makes sense, given the events of NFA, but what does it mean for Buffy's normal life/freedom, or the Slayer Army? Would the effects be localized? Could they be?
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