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Post by William the Bloody on Oct 23, 2003 19:58:33 GMT -5
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tkent
S'cubie
"Angel and I have never been intimate...well except that once..." --New fodder for fanfic!
Posts: 21
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Post by tkent on Oct 23, 2003 20:40:59 GMT -5
GREAT analysis! As I watched the ep I kept thinking about the discussions here how we've talked about the different eps being about power or the lack thereof. As I watched I kept thinking this ep was about them all stepping up and trying...and after reading your analysis (helped me put some of my thoughts in order) I look at it all this way; Maybe we can't change or control our destiny (this time) but we sure as hell have to TRY because maybe next time we will be able to. As Fred was trying to help because it was " the right thing to do." As Angel, Wes and Gunn all started to show SOME sympathy and help out. As Spike said enough and fought back I kept thinking about EMPOWERMENT. I think they all put aside their differences and worked together solidly/positively for maybe the first time this season. Best moment for me: when Spike put on his snarky little smirk, stuck his chin out, put on his "I'm the Big Bad" attitude on and "followed the LIGHT" down the hall. I didn't see despair at the end either. Sure, Fred felt bad cause it didn't turn out as she'd wanted, BUT, Spike picked up the cup and I saw...hope. cheesy or what??  |
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Post by Nickim on Oct 23, 2003 21:17:22 GMT -5
Great analysis, Lee. I believe we do have free will and that no matter how wicked we've been salvation is possible. In the Bible, Saul approved of the murder of Stephen--the first Christian martyr. Yet, Saul was forgiven and became the apostle Paul after he changed. Course, I know Joss claims to be atheist, so maybe he doesn't care that the Bible says we really can make atonement and be forgiven. I just can't imagine how hopeless life would be if I believed that our sins can never be forgiven and that nothing we do matters. That kind of despair leads people to give up on life. Even if you don't believe in God or the Bible we can try to make life better for others and in so doing, improve our own lives as well.
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Post by Sue on Oct 23, 2003 22:58:58 GMT -5
Good job, Lee. You've raised a lot of interesting questions. (More than you answered, but hey, that's what the episode did.)
I liked: "He is not going to be a pawn in TPTB’s chess game." Or, I'm thinking in the Senior Partner's plans.
Of course, Spike has had quite of history of being a pawn, or at least being "played."
Not sure he was ever Angel's pawn, but he was certainly enslaved by Dru, and then Buffy. He was definitely The First's pawn--triggered and controlled. And, in a sense, for much of his life he has been the "pawn" of his demon.
No more. I think most of us may agree that it was Lies My Parents Told Me last season on Buffy where, in breaking free of The First's trigger, Spike becomes "his own man, with 'free will' " in more ways that one. I don't think he'd even go back to being Buffy's pawn at this point.
Nope, he's his own man and if he's going to Hell he's going kicking and screaming and fighting all the way, not brooding and accepting. Hopefully he can rub off on Angel and give him back some hope as well.
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Post by Sue on Oct 23, 2003 23:00:06 GMT -5
Quote: "Okay, we’ve had naked Spike. When can we see naked DB? And naked AD? And naked JAR? "
Yep, that's our Lee.
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Post by Sue on Oct 23, 2003 23:00:50 GMT -5
GREAT analysis! I didn't see despair at the end either. Sure, Fred felt bad cause it didn't turn out as she'd wanted, BUT, Spike picked up the cup and I saw...hope. cheesy or what?? Cheesy or not, I agree. |
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Post by Sue on Oct 23, 2003 23:02:34 GMT -5
Just one more comment.
Haven't we seen so far this season a slight variation on the theme: "It's all about power." I think it's been phrased: "It's about control."
Whether he is in fact or not, Spike prefers at least to ACT as if he is in control of his own destiny.
Angel was sounding a tad fatalistic.
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Post by ldelrossi on Oct 24, 2003 7:04:58 GMT -5
Yea Lee! Great review! Your review did ask a lot of questions - the questions we as viewers had as we watched the ep and the questions that the writer dangled in front of us and gave no answers.
I agree that so far this season seems to be about power and control. Angel and the FG do not feel in control because they know that W&H will put everything they can into corrupting them over to the evil side.
Angel feels totally out of control because of all he has lost in spite of his good fight, because he doesn't know what W&H has in store for him and because of "the utter hopelessness that permeates his existence."
We have not seen Wesley control anything, but we haven't really seen him do much of anything. Angel allowed Fred to be in some control telling her "your dept, your call" in spite of being $800,000 over budget.
But whenever you deal with supernatural stuff, there is ultimately no real control. Gunn, although he seems knowledgeable and friendly toward that conduit, doesn't really know if W&H stuck anything dangerous or evil in his brain. Lorne seems the most in control.
Enter Spike, who despite being unable to affect anything physically, decides to assert a measure of control and FIGHT LIKE HELL, knowing that he may not win, but wanting to control at least some of the details of his life and the time of his departure into hell.
That's why I think he is so important to all of the others. He will inspire Angel especially to use some of his inner demonic energy to fight W&H and to escape from his pit of despair. Although Fred failed to corporealize Spike, she was willing to try to manipulate supernatural and physical rules to give him back his body so he was an inspiration for her. Even Gunn was willing to approach that panther and ask for some help in the scary white room to help Spike.
I admire that Spike, in spite of realizing he hasn't changed his ultimate destiny, is willing to fight. "I do deserve to go to hell...just not today." I know I would be more like Angel and despair. His losses and guilt are so enormous. I would like to be more like Spike and I became hopeful during the sofa scene - the snarkiness proves that there is some chutzpa left in Angel and Spike will force him to allow it to surface
All of the questions raised are ones that philosophers having been raising forever. I can't wait to see how ME attempts to answer them over the season.
Yes, more naked Angel, but God, not with Eve!
Again great review Lee, you expressed a lot of what my muddled brain was thinking, but in a clear, organized, and upbeat way.
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 24, 2003 7:56:51 GMT -5
GREAT analysis! As I watched the ep I kept thinking about the discussions here how we've talked about the different eps being about power or the lack thereof. As I watched I kept thinking this ep was about them all stepping up and trying...and after reading your analysis (helped me put some of my thoughts in order) I look at it all this way; Maybe we can't change or control our destiny (this time) but we sure as hell have to TRY because maybe next time we will be able to. As Fred was trying to help because it was " the right thing to do." As Angel, Wes and Gunn all started to show SOME sympathy and help out. As Spike said enough and fought back I kept thinking about EMPOWERMENT. I think they all put aside their differences and worked together solidly/positively for maybe the first time this season. Best moment for me: when Spike put on his snarky little smirk, stuck his chin out, put on his "I'm the Big Bad" attitude on and "followed the LIGHT" down the hall. I didn't see despair at the end either. Sure, Fred felt bad cause it didn't turn out as she'd wanted, BUT, Spike picked up the cup and I saw...hope. cheesy or what?? I agree - great analysis Lee (except Lee, I don't think the reviewer is supposed to ask the reader so many questions. It makes my brain hurt). tkent - I don't think "seeing hope" is cheesy at all. I think it is an explicit theme, a part of what Lee was referring to in her analysis. Notice that Spike refers to himself and Angel as Hope and Crosby, and that Pavayne tells Spike "there's hope for you yet boy" or some such thing. Hope is word deliberately used in this episode - and I think, hope is something Angel seems to have lost. Maybe Spike will help him find his Hope. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 24, 2003 7:58:13 GMT -5
Lee - I was glad you didn't let us down when it came to mentioning naked Spike. But I was kinda disappointed in the advertised "partial nudity" in this episode. It was entirely too partial.
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Post by LeeHollins on Oct 24, 2003 8:38:06 GMT -5
Lee - I was glad you didn't let us down when it came to mentioning naked Spike. But I was kinda disappointed in the advertised "partial nudity" in this episode. It was entirely too partial. Naked Spike wasn't nearly naked enough for me. I'm holding out hope for the rest of the season - we've still got 18 episodes. Surely Spike is bound to be naked again? Please, Joss? Pretty please? |
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Post by LeeHollins on Oct 24, 2003 8:40:32 GMT -5
GREAT analysis! As I watched the ep I kept thinking about the discussions here how we've talked about the different eps being about power or the lack thereof. As I watched I kept thinking this ep was about them all stepping up and trying...and after reading your analysis (helped me put some of my thoughts in order) I look at it all this way; Maybe we can't change or control our destiny (this time) but we sure as hell have to TRY because maybe next time we will be able to. As Fred was trying to help because it was " the right thing to do." As Angel, Wes and Gunn all started to show SOME sympathy and help out. As Spike said enough and fought back I kept thinking about EMPOWERMENT. I think they all put aside their differences and worked together solidly/positively for maybe the first time this season. Best moment for me: when Spike put on his snarky little smirk, stuck his chin out, put on his "I'm the Big Bad" attitude on and "followed the LIGHT" down the hall. I didn't see despair at the end either. Sure, Fred felt bad cause it didn't turn out as she'd wanted, BUT, Spike picked up the cup and I saw...hope. cheesy or what?? Thanks, tkent! I'm completely on board with what you say about hope (and no, it wasn't cheesy at all!). I think Spike picking up the cup dempnstrated that he has hope - hope that maybe he'll eventually become corporealized and failing that, hope that he will learn to accept his not-quite-a-ghost status. Great thoughts, tkent!  |
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Post by LeeHollins on Oct 24, 2003 8:43:46 GMT -5
Great analysis, Lee. I believe we do have free will and that no matter how wicked we've been salvation is possible. In the Bible, Saul approved of the murder of Stephen--the first Christian martyr. Yet, Saul was forgiven and became the apostle Paul after he changed. Course, I know Joss claims to be atheist, so maybe he doesn't care that the Bible says we really can make atonement and be forgiven. I just can't imagine how hopeless life would be if I believed that our sins can never be forgiven and that nothing we do matters. That kind of despair leads people to give up on life. Even if you don't believe in God or the Bible we can try to make life better for others and in so doing, improve our own lives as well. Oh, I'm completely on board with this. I believe in free will and I think we can be forgiven of our sins. Angel, unfortunately, is not of this mindset right now. I hope that Angel will see Spike's struggle and learn from it - learn to accept that he has sinned but that he CAN be forgiven. Echoing tkent's thoughts from above - Angel needs to find HOPE. |
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Post by LeeHollins on Oct 24, 2003 8:49:21 GMT -5
Good job, Lee. You've raised a lot of interesting questions. (More than you answered, but hey, that's what the episode did.) I liked: "He is not going to be a pawn in TPTB’s chess game." Or, I'm thinking in the Senior Partner's plans. Of course, Spike has had quite of history of being a pawn, or at least being "played." Not sure he was ever Angel's pawn, but he was certainly enslaved by Dru, and then Buffy. He was definitely The First's pawn--triggered and controlled. And, in a sense, for much of his life he has been the "pawn" of his demon. No more. I think most of us may agree that it was Lies My Parents Told Me last season on Buffy where, in breaking free of The First's trigger, Spike becomes "his own man, with 'free will' " in more ways that one. I don't think he'd even go back to being Buffy's pawn at this point. Nope, he's his own man and if he's going to Hell he's going kicking and screaming and fighting all the way, not brooding and accepting. Hopefully he can rub off on Angel and give him back some hope as well. That's one reason I was so worried about my review - I answered NOTHING. But for me, this episode didn't really answer a lot. It brought up a lot of questions - questions that can't be answered in one episode. Hell, these are questions that can't be answered in a lifetime! While I know that JW said there wouldn't necessarily be a seasonal arc (a la The Beast and Jasmine), there are definitely shades of a seasonal arc, or seasonal questions - how do you fight evil when you're working for evil? Can you change your destiny? and so on. I think you're exactly right about Spike. He's no longer anyone's pawn or play thing. He is his own man, fighting for himself, fighting to be his own "leader" (for lack of a better term). |
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Post by LeeHollins on Oct 24, 2003 8:55:29 GMT -5
Yea Lee! Great review! Your review did ask a lot of questions - the questions we as viewers had as we watched the ep and the questions that the writer dangled in front of us and gave no answers. I agree that so far this season seems to be about power and control. Angel and the FG do not feel in control because they know that W&H will put everything they can into corrupting them over to the evil side. Angel feels totally out of control because of all he has lost in spite of his good fight, because he doesn't know what W&H has in store for him and because of "the utter hopelessness that permeates his existence." We have not seen Wesley control anything, but we haven't really seen him do much of anything. Angel allowed Fred to be in some control telling her "your dept, your call" in spite of being $800,000 over budget. But whenever you deal with supernatural stuff, there is ultimately no real control. Gunn, although he seems knowledgeable and friendly toward that conduit, doesn't really know if W&H stuck anything dangerous or evil in his brain. Lorne seems the most in control. Enter Spike, who despite being unable to affect anything physically, decides to assert a measure of control and FIGHT LIKE HELL, knowing that he may not win, but wanting to control at least some of the details of his life and the time of his departure into hell.
That's why I think he is so important to all of the others. He will inspire Angel especially to use some of his inner demonic energy to fight W&H and to escape from his pit of despair. Although Fred failed to corporealize Spike, she was willing to try to manipulate supernatural and physical rules to give him back his body so he was an inspiration for her. Even Gunn was willing to approach that panther and ask for some help in the scary white room to help Spike.I admire that Spike, in spite of realizing he hasn't changed his ultimate destiny, is willing to fight. "I do deserve to go to hell...just not today." I know I would be more like Angel and despair. His losses and guilt are so enormous. I would like to be more like Spike and I became hopeful during the sofa scene - the snarkiness proves that there is some chutzpa left in Angel and Spike will force him to allow it to surface All of the questions raised are ones that philosophers having been raising forever. I can't wait to see how ME attempts to answer them over the season. Yes, more naked Angel, but God, not with Eve! Again great review Lee, you expressed a lot of what my muddled brain was thinking, but in a clear, organized, and upbeat way. Lori, are you doing a review? I really hope so!! I think (well, I hope) that Spike will show the FG that yes, you may not be able to change your destiny, but you sure can fight like hell to show you're not going to accept whatever the Senior Partners or TPTB throw at you. In this episode, the FG are slowly realizing that - they band together to help Spike. They don't know if it will work but they feel they have to try. They have to give it their all. They have to prove to themselves they are not just going to roll over and allow the SPs to corrupt them. |
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