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Post by raenstorm on Oct 24, 2003 8:58:18 GMT -5
I agree - great analysis Lee (except Lee, I don't think the reviewer is supposed to ask the reader so many questions. It makes my brain hurt). tkent - I don't think "seeing hope" is cheesy at all. I think it is an explicit theme, a part of what Lee was referring to in her analysis. Notice that Spike refers to himself and Angel as Hope and Crosby, and that Pavayne tells Spike "there's hope for you yet boy" or some such thing. Hope is word deliberately used in this episode - and I think, hope is something Angel seems to have lost. Maybe Spike will help him find his Hope. *imitates a Trix commercial* Silly Spring, Spike IS his Hope! Seriously, I think Spike actually IS Angel's hope this season. I can't wait to see the relationship between these two explored. They are two very complex men who could be great friends. Then, maybe they can help each other get over Buffy so we can get a lot more naked JM and DB!!
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 24, 2003 9:05:19 GMT -5
*imitates a Trix commercial* Silly Spring, Spike IS his Hope! Seriously, I think Spike actually IS Angel's hope this season. I can't wait to see the relationship between these two explored. They are two very complex men who could be great friends. Then, maybe they can help each other get over Buffy so we can get a lot more naked JM and DB!! Definitely, Spike is Hope. Angel is Crosby. Angel is Stills, Spike is Nash. Spike is Chico. Angel is The Man.
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Post by raenstorm on Oct 24, 2003 9:14:19 GMT -5
Woohooo! Wooohooo! *dances around like an idiot* I got a shout-out in Lee's review! Go me. Go me. Go me. *glances up to see everyone staring at her* Oh, sorry, got side-tracked for a moment there. Lee, absolutely fabulous review. I agree with everything you said. Or, at least, I had all those questions too Reading your review, it occurs to me that the Reaper and Spike had it right. Reality does bend to desire. All we have to do to change our lives is want it bad enough. Granted, we may not change our ultimate destination in life but damn if we can't pick the route with all the good sight-seeing opportunities along the way. Maybe Angel and Spike ARE destined to go to Hell. Maybe they aren't. If anything has been proven so far, it's that they aren't in Hell. Yes, Angel was there, but he's not now. He can to choose to see that as a sign that he should be and could be returned at any time. OR, he could choose to see it as a sign that he really didn't belong there regardless of how he got out. Either way, if Spike and Angel choose to live as though Hell is their destination, they might as well just be in Hell (or, perhaps that is Hell... just the belief that you are going). Spike seems to get that. He might accept that he belongs in Hell but, until he's there, he's not going to live like that is where he deserves to go. I HOPE that Angel can come to the same realization. He deserves a lil' happiness but let's break that pesky curse first, ok?
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 24, 2003 10:32:17 GMT -5
That's one reason I was so worried about my review - I answered NOTHING. But for me, this episode didn't really answer a lot. It brought up a lot of questions - questions that can't be answered in one episode. Hell, these are questions that can't be answered in a lifetime! While I know that JW said there wouldn't necessarily be a seasonal arc (a la The Beast and Jasmine), there are definitely shades of a seasonal arc, or seasonal questions - how do you fight evil when you're working for evil? Can you change your destiny? and so on. I think you're exactly right about Spike. He's no longer anyone's pawn or play thing. He is his own man, fighting for himself, fighting to be his own "leader" (for lack of a better term). Lee, I really enjoyed reading your review - it was 'peppy', full of good questions and excitement. It made me want to watch the episode again, and think maybe this time I wouldn't cry when Spike doesn't get to be a 'real boy' yet. He did the most 'real' thing possible - he saved Fred at his own expense. That's very hopeful.
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Post by makd on Oct 24, 2003 10:52:52 GMT -5
Just want to ditto everything that's been said. Forgot we had this special thread, so sent your congrats to the main board.
I especially liked this comment (forget [that's a major arc in MY life, apparently] who posted it.)
" Either way, if Spike and Angel choose to live as though Hell is their destination, ... (perhaps that is Hell... just the belief that you are going). Spike seems to get that. He might accept that he belongs in Hell but, until he's there, he's not going to live like that is where he deserves to go. I HOPE that Angel can come to the same realization. "
Great themes so far: conviction, inequality of rewards, mercy, the hell of day-to-day life, knowing our true selves and seeing ourselves as flawed, regrets and remorse over those we hurt...and maybe continue to hurt....These ARE the basics, guys, and the creative staff at ME are serving up them home runs game after game.
once again: great job, LeeH
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Oct 24, 2003 12:15:56 GMT -5
Great work, Lee H! I can't think of anything else that hasn't already been said. I'm going to go think about this episode some more now.
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Oct 24, 2003 12:48:40 GMT -5
Well written, Lee. Interesting points. Regret I don't have time to give it the snarky dissection that characterizes our usual debates, but I'll give you this one:
If I were to assign a poem to Spike, I'd assign
Invictus William Ernest Henley. 1849–1903 Out of the night that covers me, Black as the Pit from pole to pole, I thank whatever gods may be For my unconquerable soul. In the fell clutch of circumstance I have not winced nor cried aloud. Under the bludgeonings of chance My head is bloody, but unbowed. Beyond this place of wrath and tears Looms but the Horror of the shade, And yet the menace of the years Finds, and shall find, me unafraid. It matters not how strait the gate, How charged with punishments the scroll, I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul.
This is the message of Hellbound and the very essence of Spike.
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Post by John G on Oct 24, 2003 13:19:45 GMT -5
Great work, Lee H! I can't think of anything else that hasn't already been said. I'm going to go think about this episode some more now. Pretty much same here. I like reading Bangel reviews best!!!! (Take that Spuffy Nan! HA! ;D)
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Oct 24, 2003 13:45:09 GMT -5
Pretty much same here. I like reading Bangel reviews best!!!! (Take that Spuffy Nan! HA! ;D) Now hold it right there, John! I said I liked the review. That doesn't mean I've been converted. For the record, I am not now nor have I ever been a Bangel. So there!!!!! Besides, I said nice things about Nan's review too. I just enjoy reading reviews, like I enjoy reading letters to the editor...
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Post by LadyDi on Oct 24, 2003 14:50:50 GMT -5
I thought this was a great ep., and a pretty good review, too. Gotta say, tho', the idea of more nekkid DB does absolutely nothing for me. JM has d*mn near ruined me for other men. ;D
Disturbing the status quo is Spike's raison-d'etre, and it's all for the good. Angel is mired in misery, and is (as usual) incapable of enjoying what he's been handed. It's a huge difference btwn the two. Spike works like a dog for crumbs, embracing the pain of his labors, and appreciates the rewards (however meager). Angel gets everything handed to him, wallows in pain bemoaning his fate, and won't allow himself more than a modicum of pleasure in any good. What's more, he blames himself for anything that goes wrong. We saw that last week w/wwg: "Anything happens to Nina, it's on me." Angel is losing the mission, his heart just isn't in it anymore. Spike is indomitable will. He refuses to give up, refuses to believe that nothing good can come of doing good (I refuse to believe it myself). I can't accept the idea of ME telling us there's no point to any of it, since they've put so much emphasis on good and evil, and doing what's right (regardless of motive). I do sometimes wonder about JW's spirituality. You don't have to be religious, or even believe in "God" to be spiritual. I'm sure the message(s) we're receiving reflect that, just as they'd be different if JW was religious.
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tkent
S'cubie
"Angel and I have never been intimate...well except that once..." --New fodder for fanfic!
Posts: 21
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Post by tkent on Oct 24, 2003 18:05:10 GMT -5
Thanks all for not thinking my HOPE theme was cheesy! It totally didn't register for me all the times the word Hope was used.
And to whover said it first. I agree, Spike is Angel's Hope.
The ep was definitely full of "spiritual" overtones and undertones, for lack of a better word.
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Post by ldelrossi on Oct 24, 2003 18:15:49 GMT -5
Absolutely Spike is determined to fight, bugger all.
I disagree that Angel is given everything and can't appreciate it. Given W&H, an evil law firm who gave him an amulet that may have made him exactly like Spike? How can you be happy if you're looking around every corner to see what horror the SPs have this time? How can he not wonder if Gunn's head is a time bomb? He feels always responsible. How can he not worry about what he's gotten his friends into. Even though they may have made the decision on their own, Angel signed on the dotted line first, to save Connor.
Spike doesn't have the responsibility of W&H. He doesn't feel responsible for the FG. That's one of the reasons he is important. All of them need a fresh pair of eyes, even if they aren't corporeal to see below the surface and point them in the right direction; someone unburded with second-guessing.
Spike acted like he didn't lead Fred to Dr. Royce's office on purpose, but of all the offices he could have gone into - he chose that one? Maybe it's the good PTBs finally getting off their respective asses, providing they have asses, and manipulating something to help Angel and the FG.
Angel especially needs Spike, yes, as someone who won't let him wallow in his loss of hope. Spike also galvanized the whole team, even that horror Eve, to work together to figure out what's going on.
Angel needs Spike and the FG; Spike needs Angel and the FG - or W&H will win the corruption sweepstakes.
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Post by Karen on Oct 26, 2003 17:48:39 GMT -5
I love all your questions, Lee! That's exactly how I felt about this episode. What the heck is going on?
The scene between Angel and Spike was just perfect. I hope we see alot more of this. Big broody brother, little kick ass brother. One with all the reponsibilities of the world heaped upon his shoulders, the other trying to just get into the world.
Agreed, not enough face time for Wesley, Gunn or Lorne. Angel needs to be 2 hours long.
Eve is a sneaky little bitca. Pitting Angel and Fred against each other. She just hits with the - "Oh Spike, with those eyes" comments, just needling Angel, leading on Fred. I don't know, she just seems really snakey to me.
Great review, Lee!
P.S. Not enougt nekkid Spike, and when we gonna see nekkid Angel indeed!
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Post by Queen E on Oct 27, 2003 14:50:24 GMT -5
I love all your questions, Lee! That's exactly how I felt about this episode. What the heck is going on? The scene between Angel and Spike was just perfect. I hope we see alot more of this. Big broody brother, little kick ass brother. One with all the reponsibilities of the world heaped upon his shoulders, the other trying to just get into the world. Agreed, not enough face time for Wesley, Gunn or Lorne. Angel needs to be 2 hours long. Eve is a sneaky little bitca. Pitting Angel and Fred against each other. She just hits with the - "Oh Spike, with those eyes" comments, just needling Angel, leading on Fred. I don't know, she just seems really snakey to me. Great review, Lee! P.S. Not enougt nekkid Spike, and when we gonna see nekkid Angel indeed! Wanted to second that: Great review, lots of verve and humor in your writing.
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Post by Kerrie on Nov 19, 2003 6:30:21 GMT -5
Great review Lee. I am also eagerly awaiting more male FG air-time. I thought Spike represented Angel's hope too. I had a few more thoughts based partially on what you have written but I have taken them over to part 70 as I suspect not many people are reading this and I wanted some information and didn't want to pressure on specific individuals.
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