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Post by William the Bloody on Oct 31, 2003 14:06:06 GMT -5
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Oct 31, 2003 14:38:13 GMT -5
Nice work, Spring (applauds). I really liked the parallels with Grapes of Wrath, a connection I hadn't even made. It's been years since I've read that one, too. The quote from GoW about the preacher's soul - Wowsa! I got chills thinking about the implications of that.
Another great review.
Thanks for giving me more to think about. I'm going to go and do just that right now.
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Post by Laura on Oct 31, 2003 14:59:55 GMT -5
WOW! Spring! Again, I say, WOW!
I confess, I missed the first couple of lines of the episode, so I never did hear what movie it was that Lorne was casting with a resurrected Henry Fonda. The Grapes of Wrath, indeed. Let's not forget that the title itself is taken from The Battle Hymn of the Republic, which itself was a Civil War anthem of the Union Troops (written by prominent abolitionist Julia Ward Howe). The complete first verse of her poem is:
Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord:
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword:
His truth is marching on.
We're being set up for something this season -- I know JW has said that there isn't going to be a "big arc," but there still has to be some unifying theme. Spring, you think it's going to be Angel confronting a big part of himself that he's hidden on the shelf. I think (leaving aside Steinbeck's motivations in choosing to quote that particular lyric) there's going to be some "fateful lightning" of a "terrible swift sword" being "loosed" on the FG -- could we be being set up for another return of Angelus?
Also, Spring, I love the way you've identified the players in this ep as being "2-D" -- incomplete, cartoonish characters. Great, great job with the review!
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 31, 2003 16:38:42 GMT -5
Spring...that was one outstanding review....man oh man...and I thought it was just some kinda flat funny-ish episode. You amaze me.
Now I have to go watch it again and see if I can pick out all the references and insights you pointed out.
I read Grapes of Wrath in my Steinbeck period...who'd a thunk it would come up years later in a review of an episode of a tv show about some vampires, demons and humans...oh my!
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Post by Karen on Oct 31, 2003 16:42:46 GMT -5
WOW! Spring! Again, I say, WOW!
I confess, I missed the first couple of lines of the episode, so I never did hear what movie it was that Lorne was casting with a resurrected Henry Fonda. The Grapes of Wrath, indeed. Let's not forget that the title itself is taken from The Battle Hymn of the Republic, which itself was a Civil War anthem of the Union Troops (written by prominent abolitionist Julia Ward Howe). The complete first verse of her poem is:
Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord:
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword:
His truth is marching on.
We're being set up for something this season -- I know JW has said that there isn't going to be a "big arc," but there still has to be some unifying theme. Spring, you think it's going to be Angel confronting a big part of himself that he's hidden on the shelf. I think (leaving aside Steinbeck's motivations in choosing to quote that particular lyric) there's going to be some "fateful lightning" of a "terrible swift sword" being "loosed" on the FG -- could we be being set up for another return of Angelus?
Also, Spring, I love the way you've identified the players in this ep as being "2-D" -- incomplete, cartoonish characters. Great, great job with the review!
Spring, Laura took the words right out of my mouth. ;D Thanks for looking up the Grapes of Wrath references. I was excited for Angel to begin this fall, and now am even more excited to see how it will all play out. I hope we'll see Angel confront his inner demons AND see a "terrible swift sword". More Spike would have been great, but I like episodes centered around the minor characters. It adds so much more to the show; fills it out. I do think he is still being shown as a key player. In the last few episodes, he has been the key to defeating the bad. As the 'life of the party', his so out-of-character actions made Wes and Fred realize something was "wrong with this picture". Thanks again for an awesome analysis! P.S. I really enjoy your "Angel mirroring the bad guys" references. In this ep, do you mean that he literally was mirroring the bad guys? |
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 31, 2003 18:47:52 GMT -5
Nice work, Spring (applauds). I really liked the parallels with Grapes of Wrath, a connection I hadn't even made. It's been years since I've read that one, too. The quote from GoW about the preacher's soul - Wowsa! I got chills thinking about the implications of that. Another great review. Thanks for giving me more to think about. I'm going to go and do just that right now. I'm glad you enjoyed the review, Anne, and took the time to let me know. Yes The Grapes of Wrath was a favorite of mine, and I read a lot of Steinbeck after that. But it was a long time ago - I went to refresh my memory on the book by going to sparknotes.com, which has some summaries and the like - and that quote just jumped out at me, as did the image of the nursing woman (when we had seen that demon drink from his servant, and heard Harmony say Angel "sucked." Let us know what results from your thinking! |
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Post by makd on Oct 31, 2003 18:50:26 GMT -5
Spring
Terrific review! I enjoyed it as much as your Spikecentric reviews.
I didn't get the whole Henry Fonda thing till I saw the episode a 2nd time (thanks, Buffy.nu), and, having read The Grapes of Wrath in the previous millennium, had forgotten the whole conversation with the preacher. Chilling.
Then, when we take the Battle Hymn's lyrics?
whoa. This is gonna be a GREAT May! Them spring-time adventures in the Jossverse just don't let us down, do they?
Thanks again for another insightful review.
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 31, 2003 18:50:43 GMT -5
WOW! Spring! Again, I say, WOW!
I confess, I missed the first couple of lines of the episode, so I never did hear what movie it was that Lorne was casting with a resurrected Henry Fonda. The Grapes of Wrath, indeed. Let's not forget that the title itself is taken from The Battle Hymn of the Republic, which itself was a Civil War anthem of the Union Troops (written by prominent abolitionist Julia Ward Howe). The complete first verse of her poem is:
Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord:
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword:
His truth is marching on.
We're being set up for something this season -- I know JW has said that there isn't going to be a "big arc," but there still has to be some unifying theme. Spring, you think it's going to be Angel confronting a big part of himself that he's hidden on the shelf. I think (leaving aside Steinbeck's motivations in choosing to quote that particular lyric) there's going to be some "fateful lightning" of a "terrible swift sword" being "loosed" on the FG -- could we be being set up for another return of Angelus?
Also, Spring, I love the way you've identified the players in this ep as being "2-D" -- incomplete, cartoonish characters. Great, great job with the review!
Thanks for your nice words, Laura, and by the way, welcome back from Italia, you lucky brat you. Good point about the origin of the phrase, "the grapes of wrath." I like the image of "trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored." Angel's grapes of wrath is stored in Angelus - is he going to be able to make wine? A nice chianti, maybe?  |
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 31, 2003 18:53:09 GMT -5
Spring...that was one outstanding review....man oh man...and I thought it was just some kinda flat funny-ish episode. You amaze me. Now I have to go watch it again and see if I can pick out all the references and insights you pointed out. I read Grapes of Wrath in my Steinbeck period...who'd a thunk it would come up years later in a review of an episode of a tv show about some vampires, demons and humans...oh my! Thanks, Patti. I thought the episode was a bit flat and funnish too, but an Joss-product always has more going on. I am glad I amaze you, but I was only able to be this dazzling in this ep because Spike kept all his clothes on. If I had had to do last week's review, it would have been something like: Spring see Spike. Spring like Spike. Where Spike? Etc. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 31, 2003 18:59:44 GMT -5
Spring, Laura took the words right out of my mouth. ;D Thanks for looking up the Grapes of Wrath references. I was excited for Angel to begin this fall, and now am even more excited to see how it will all play out. I hope we'll see Angel confront his inner demons AND see a "terrible swift sword". More Spike would have been great, but I like episodes centered around the minor characters. It adds so much more to the show; fills it out. I do think he is still being shown as a key player. In the last few episodes, he has been the key to defeating the bad. As the 'life of the party', his so out-of-character actions made Wes and Fred realize something was "wrong with this picture". Thanks again for an awesome analysis! P.S. I really enjoy your "Angel mirroring the bad guys" references. In this ep, do you mean that he literally was mirroring the bad guys? Thanks, SandyS. I am glad you enjoyed the review. Here is my rule: More Spike is always "more good." Of course, you make a good point about filling out the charaterization of the others, etc. I know you are right. But I can't help it: I like Spike. Spike and more Spike. Your question - I am not sure what you mean, exactly. But what I was saying was that, just as Sebassis literally consumes his "employees," Angel has killed several, and they all think he "sucks." There is something of a parallel set up between them, I think - they are both "bosses." Angel, of course, is not trying to be actively evil in his actions. But it's more grayness, I would say. Is living in the lap of luxury while your employees give their life's blood to support your lifestyle OK? Is that what Angel is doing? That's what he's inherited . . . can he change it? Should he? |
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Post by Nickim on Oct 31, 2003 19:32:42 GMT -5
Wow, Spring you blow me away. I thought this ep was a little flat during the first half, but I saw some of the deeper stuff in the 2nd half. I totally missed The Grapes of Wrath reference--just proves what you always say about there not being any throwaway lines in the Jossverse. The finding a soul speech gives me chills everytime.
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Post by RAKSHA on Oct 31, 2003 23:00:23 GMT -5
WOW! Spring! Again, I say, WOW!
I confess, I missed the first couple of lines of the episode, so I never did hear what movie it was that Lorne was casting with a resurrected Henry Fonda. The Grapes of Wrath, indeed. Let's not forget that the title itself is taken from The Battle Hymn of the Republic, which itself was a Civil War anthem of the Union Troops (written by prominent abolitionist Julia Ward Howe). The complete first verse of her poem is:
Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord:
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword:
His truth is marching on.
We're being set up for something this season -- I know JW has said that there isn't going to be a "big arc," but there still has to be some unifying theme. Spring, you think it's going to be Angel confronting a big part of himself that he's hidden on the shelf. I think (leaving aside Steinbeck's motivations in choosing to quote that particular lyric) there's going to be some "fateful lightning" of a "terrible swift sword" being "loosed" on the FG -- could we be being set up for another return of Angelus?
Also, Spring, I love the way you've identified the players in this ep as being "2-D" -- incomplete, cartoonish characters. Great, great job with the review!
Part of Angel is a big socially unskilled guy who would much rather watch hockey than be a CEO at his company's party, and part of him is a virile fellow who'd love to get lucky with a pretty woman. Part of Spike IS a people-person in that he likes companionship and fun. Part of Gunn is an ambitious alpha male with designs on Angel's turf. And part of Lorne is angry and tired of making nice with the scum of the universe. And all these parts, repressed and otherwise, came out to play on Halloween.
I don't know if JW was trying to make points about the evils of corporate culture in that W&H was not a warm and fuzzy happy family group like the FG had been, or even an equal partnership. If he was trying to make such a point, then I'm not buying. I will never believe that corporations are evil in themselves; there's elements of good and evil in them, just like any organization, and the potential for misuse. W&H isn't so much evil because it's a big law firm and some people are bosses and others are associates and others are mail clerks and secretaries, it's evil because they do evil things, like sacrifices, killing lawyers instead of letting them go or not promoting them, and generally doing evil deeds. [glow=red,2,300]GAIL  [/glow] |
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 1, 2003 0:29:02 GMT -5
Good job, Spring! And good point Laura for underscoring it; I feel the strongest point of the episode was the problems occuring when people wall off portions of themselves without dealing with those parts.
Part of Angel is a big socially unskilled guy who would much rather watch hockey than be a CEO at his company's party, and part of him is a virile fellow who'd love to get lucky with a pretty woman. Part of Spike IS a people-person in that he likes companionship and fun. Part of Gunn is an ambitious alpha male with designs on Angel's turf. And part of Lorne is angry and tired of making nice with the scum of the universe. And all these parts, repressed and otherwise, came out to play on Halloween.
I don't know if JW was trying to make points about the evils of corporate culture in that W&H was not a warm and fuzzy happy family group like the FG had been, or even an equal partnership. If he was trying to make such a point, then I'm not buying. I will never believe that corporations are evil in themselves; there's elements of good and evil in them, just like any organization, and the potential for misuse. W&H isn't so much evil because it's a big law firm and some people are bosses and others are associates and others are mail clerks and secretaries, it's evil because they do evil things, like sacrifices, killing lawyers instead of letting them go or not promoting them, and generally doing evil deeds. [glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow] Thanks Gail, for your comments. On the corporate evil thing - I agree that corporations aren't evil because there are bosses and lower level associates, and I don't think that's the message. I think the target was unbridled coroporate greed, of the kind we have seen in the headlines the last couple of years. You know - CEOs or owners that live in the lap of utrageous luxury, that make 100s of millions of dollars, while cutbacks are made that leave everyday people - who have devoted their lives to a company - in poverty. You read of top dogs leaving a sinking ship with mega-dollars, selling all their stocks before the plunge, while longtime employees loose all their retirement, and are left to drown, etc. That's the kind of thing I think is being addressed with the images from The Grapes of Wrath and Sebassis literally drinking the life's blood of his servant. And more generally, I think the target was . . . grotesque selfishness in general - people who are willing to horribly use and abuse others for their own gain. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 1, 2003 0:35:18 GMT -5
Wow, Spring you blow me away. I thought this ep was a little flat during the first half, but I saw some of the deeper stuff in the 2nd half. I totally missed The Grapes of Wrath reference--just proves what you always say about there not being any throwaway lines in the Jossverse. The finding a soul speech gives me chills everytime. Thanks, Nicki. I felt the same way you did on first viewing of the ep. I was kind of disappointed in it - not as funny as I thought it would be, and kind of flat. But I watched it three times, trying to pay attention so I could do the review, and it started to click for me . . . the way the images worked together, etc. Yeah, that quote about going off into the wildnerness to find his soul - it did just make me sit and stare at the screen when I found it. And that message - that you don't really have your own soul, but just a piece of a great soul that you share with everyone else, that you aren't whole until you connect with everyone else . . . I do think that will be Spike's role. I mean, he'll lead Angel to that. He'll be the people person - which really, he already is. It's already in him - he gets down and depressed and seeks solitude (like right after he got his chip) but ultimately, he needs others, he always has, much more than Angel has. |
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Post by KMInfinity on Nov 1, 2003 12:01:15 GMT -5
Great review, Spring! As a former Lit major, I love the connections you highlighted with The Grapes of Wrath.
One thing I've been thinking about. In addition to the theme of corporate evil, what other themes are connected to the "dark side" of Angel? I agree with others that "bottling up" Angelus may be a major theme.
But what about Angel's views of good and evil?
So far, the major focus seems to have been that Angel wants redemption for the evil he has commited - specifically, against those (innocent?) victims he has harmed.
But what about how he treats others of "evil" persuasion? Could Josh W be setting up an eventual exploration of the way Angel blithely assumes that demons, etc. can be destroyed? There's always been an undercurrent in BtVS and Angel that some things cannot be redeemed, but must be fought. Yet we now have two vampires with souls, have met various "demons" that aren't intrinsically evil, and have seen an increasingly ambiguous definition of what evil really is.
I think it's significant that Angel has randomly hurt" or killed some employees, with the assumption they are evil and so it's okay. What if it becomes a given that nothing evil is irredeemable? If Spike has been "souled" and has the chance to be redeemed, or "saved" then doesn't that imply all evil can be redeemed?
I'm thinking about two possibly relevant Christian concepts:
~Jesus' admonition to turn the other cheek/fighting isn't the answer (Peter at Gesthemane)
~the idea of a "merciful" God
If JW develops a salvation theme, (even over more than one year), then the way Angel faces evil may change. He cannot only fight the evil and defeat it, he has to find some way to transform it. And maybe the first place he needs to do that is in W&H.
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