|
Post by Karen on Nov 17, 2003 14:26:23 GMT -5
My god, Erin, what a fabulous review! First off, what an ingenious way to write it - as a letter. Great idea right there. I had never really thought of Wesley as "the heart" of the group before. I think many of us saw him as "the brain" and seeing him as "the brain" is probably what led most of us to criticizing his behavior of S3. After all, he's the brain, he's supposed to think everything through, he's supposed to be the voice of reason for the group. Seeing him as the heart puts in an a whole other light - one of self-sacrifice, duty and loyalty. Erin, GREAT job on the review. I'm sorry I'm just now commenting on it. This was an absolutely wonderful review. I wonder how Wesley as the heart would fit into Rae's pentagram from her review of Numerio Cinco?
|
|
|
Post by ldelrossi on Nov 18, 2003 10:39:50 GMT -5
Absolutely wonderful review Erin! Your recap of Wesley's "career" on both Buffy and Angel was really helpful.
Like others, I thought of Wesley as the brain of the FG, but you present a valid argument for him as the heart. More thinking on that.
Everyone else has already said what I thought - so thank you for your clever letter review.
I am increasingly worried about the continuously raising bar for reviews since I have to follow you all.
|
|
|
Post by missbuffy on Nov 18, 2003 15:39:27 GMT -5
WOW Erin! That was really great! I never even thought to wonder about how Wes ended up such a good guy at heart... looking at it from that prespective makes me like him even more. Again, a really great review... like reading a letter from a friend. You should submit that to the 'noise' section (where they accept and then highlight opinions via email) over on the WB site. I think it's well worth it.
|
|
|
Post by Kerrie on Mar 27, 2004 16:56:54 GMT -5
I know it is late, but I can only re-iterate what everyone has already said - this is a marvellous review.
I particularly liked your link between the dead bird and wounded Fred. I hadn't thought about how Wesley did not like to see loved ones suffer. It is interesting that he does not appear to mind inflicting a little torture for the greater good.
My only uncertainty about the episode was that Wesley claimed to have done everything his father wanted and done it well. That is not true, if it were true he wouldn't have stuffed up as a watcher or the various other mistakes he has made in his life.
Whilst I think about it, I thought it interesting that Spike called Wesley, "head boy Percy". I assume this is from Percy Weasley from Harry Potter and wonder what the connection is between the two, apart from their headboyship. It is rather ominous.
As an aside, I watched this episode twice in quick succession because it is the special seventh episode.
|
|
|
Post by Kerrie on Mar 29, 2004 17:33:19 GMT -5
My only uncertainty about the episode was that Wesley claimed to have done everything his father wanted and done it well. That is not true, if it were true he wouldn't have stuffed up as a watcher or the various other mistakes he has made in his life. I know only the coolest S'Cubies quote themselves so I thought I would too. I have been thinking about my earlier statement. I want to clarify my position. Wesley does thngs on his own agenda very well. He is an excellent Rogue Demon Hunter, but he wasn't a very good Watcher. HIs father did not want him to be a Rogue Demon Hunter, he wanted him to be a Watcher. I know the difference is subtle, but I think Wes's father was a conformist - Watching is the preferred occupation, Rogue Demon Hunting has stepped outside the bounds of appropriate behaviour. Rogue Demon Hunting has an uncontrolled vigilante element that would be distatesteful to a Traditionalist like WEs's dad. I think things like Wes's clumsiness and lack of social graces when his father is present partly reflects his inability to follow his father's agenda very well. On his own, Wes is polite and reasonably graceful but then he is following his own agenda. (In a room surrounded by yes people I would still get into an argument - I am naturally contrary.)
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Apr 15, 2004 20:52:13 GMT -5
As suggested, a copy of stuff I thought when watching while getting ready for the last shows of the season. _________________________________
Sorta-serious post with my sorta-coherent thoughts on Lineage. And sorta on-topic, with the whole Wes talk happening and all.
And I for one am very willing to help look for Wes' self-esteem. I'll search that boy for days lookin' for it. I don't care how much or where I have to pat him down, I'll find it by God! I'm willing to make that sacrifice.
• I particularly looked for robot indications with the dadbot this time, because that is one of the advantages of watching something again – you already know the ending. So what struck me is that there really aren’t any. Granted, we haven’t seen Wes’ dad before, so that makes spotting “differences” harder, but still. Made me think of two things that affect the larger story. First, I believe Wes when he says he really thought it was his dad – no “part of you knew it wasn’t” like Fred was thinking. So the killing your father thing is very real for him and what does that say about where he is emotionally both before and after the incident. Because of this, I will always refer to the dadbot as Wes’ dad when I talk about this ep, because that is really how Wes was seeing him in all their interactions. Second, why aren’t there more differences – why does the robot still act like W-P Sr when he doesn’t really “have to”? Why try to talk to Wes about his feelings for Fred? Why continue to act “dad-like” once the safe is open – why not just knock Wes out right away and take what he needs? Other than as a plot device to make the viewer continue to think it is really his dad up until after the shooting, does this say something about the people who were making up the robots? Did they have access just to info about Wes, or actual access to Wes’ dad, so that the robot was really somehow imprinted with his personality? • Did a lot of watching how Wes reacted to his dad in this re-watching. Made me realize how a lot of Wes’ characteristic traits probably stem from the way he was treated as a child – which, I know, duh! Just really struck me. His very reserved, distant way of behaving and speaking, tendency to often look away from people, self-deprecating, etc. I thought it was really sad to see Wes just sort of perching on the far edge of the couch next to his dad – just not able to even sit close or comfortably when his dad is there. • On the roof, when his dad says: “I will kill you for it, please believe me.” And Wes so calmly replies: “Oh I believe you. I was raised by you after all.” First time I watched this ep, I only thought about the past abusive history - that Wes could very easily believe his father would have no problem killing him because he had shown no problem hurting him before. On this re-watch, I think it could also have an additional meaning – that Wes knows his father will always do what he says he is going to do – showing that Watcher rigidity and dedication. • Lastly, noticed more depth to the Spike and Wes interactions. Yes, there is Spike teasing him, etc. But actually, the look on Spike’s face when he first hears the phrase “head boy” is just more interest/recognition/perhaps respect. Because, as we all discussed the first time this aired, of course William would have know what a head boy was and how this indicates that Wes is smart, etc. I think that moment of connection is what later suggests to Spike that he try to make Wes feel better by telling him about his own mother – doesn’t work, of course, but means Spike was genuine in his desire to help.
Lola
|
|
|
Post by Queen E on Apr 16, 2004 14:25:45 GMT -5
I was surprised to see any discussion for my review after all this time; I'd forgotten about the UK time delay or the potential for rewatching. (Sometimes I'm dense.)
Excellent insights, both of you. I really like what you say, Kerrie, about Wes' discomfiture stemming from subverting his father's authority and chosen lifestyle, but not having completely broken with him.
You mean, will Wesley betray his "family" and side with those in authority who which to surpress what's happening? At this point, I'm not seeing that happening, but time will tell; I think he's already been there in Season 3...and is currently too broken and sad.
Lola: Eetah about Wes and Spike. I think there are more similarities between them as time goes by...not only in parental terms, but in "don't hurt the girl" vibes as well.
|
|
|
Post by Kerrie on Apr 16, 2004 22:56:56 GMT -5
You mean, will Wesley betray his "family" and side with those in authority who which to surpress what's happening? At this point, I'm not seeing that happening, but time will tell; I think he's already been there in Season 3...and is currently too broken and sad. I admit that it is a long shot, but Wesley has not profited from his experience because the Conner thing was cleaned from his mind. JW might decide not to go down that path again unless he wants to do the whole "If we don't learn from history we are doomed to repeat it" story-line. I suspect you are right. The alienation fromm family story arc for Wes and Percy has been played out.
|
|
|
Post by LadyLavinia on Sept 1, 2004 15:12:54 GMT -5
I have a few problems with this episode:
1) Who was behind the cyborgs? It was never explained during the entire season.
2) How was Wesley shooting Roger Wyndham-Price a foreshadow of things to come in the future? Unless you're talking of his stabbing of Charles Gunn. Is that it?
I'm not a big fan of this episode. It seemed irrevelant to Season 5 - aside from his continuing obssession of Fred (and that wasn't handled very well in the latter part of the season). In fact, why was he in love with Fred again, in the first place? Who sent the cyborgs? What did the cyborgs have to do with the season's plot? What did Wes shooting his father have to do with the season's plot?
The only good thing about this episode was the revelation of the relationship between Wes and his father.
|
|
|
Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Jun 7, 2007 6:20:35 GMT -5
This was so worth a re-read. Really well done.
|
|
|
Post by Queen E on Jun 7, 2007 8:04:53 GMT -5
This was so worth a re-read. Really well done. Thanks, Diane! You don't know how much I appreciate that!
|
|
|
Post by Onjel on Jun 7, 2007 8:26:18 GMT -5
What is it about our parents that turns us into children all over again? Truer words were never spoken. As one who has to fight against this almost every day (remember, they live with me), I can totally relate to Wes' initial reaction and applaud is finally cutting the umbilical cord, not necessarily the way I would do it, but. . .. Excellent review! I don't get over the reviews often enough, sad to say. I'm very glad I got there today. *applause*
|
|
|
Post by fish1941 on Jan 28, 2009 11:03:45 GMT -5
I think I rather pitied Wesley in Season 5. It seemed as if whatever emotional or character development he had gained in Season 4, had regressed by the end of Season 5. Pity.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Jan 28, 2009 13:43:03 GMT -5
I think I rather pitied Wesley in Season 5. It seemed as if whatever emotional or character development he had gained in Season 4, had regressed by the end of Season 5. Pity. Some people never really change. They just repeat the same predicatable pattern/behavior over and over and over and over.
|
|
|
Post by Queen E on Jan 28, 2009 18:49:17 GMT -5
I think I rather pitied Wesley in Season 5. It seemed as if whatever emotional or character development he had gained in Season 4, had regressed by the end of Season 5. Pity. Well, I think that the mindwipe eliminated a lot of his growth.
|
|