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Post by William the Bloody on Jun 6, 2003 4:03:24 GMT -5
Let the discussion begin!
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Post by Kerrie on Jun 7, 2003 16:54:26 GMT -5
I'll play even if this discussion is doomed like the title says. I liked this episode and the analysis. But, I wonder if Spike dressing in Xander's clothes and even acting as his cousin foreshadows Spike's role as ordinary human on AtS. Just a thought, given the amount of foreshadowing that BtVS does (which of course Spring has made me aware).
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Jun 7, 2003 22:34:28 GMT -5
I'll play even if this discussion is doomed like the title says. I liked this episode and the analysis. But, I wonder if Spike dressing in Xander's clothes and even acting as his cousin foreshadows Spike's role as ordinary human on AtS. Just a thought, given the amount of foreshadowing that BtVS does (which of course Spring has made me aware). Kerrie, I never thought of that. Good call! I love to find the foreshadowy things in Buffy.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jun 8, 2003 6:31:31 GMT -5
I'll play even if this discussion is doomed like the title says. I liked this episode and the analysis. But, I wonder if Spike dressing in Xander's clothes and even acting as his cousin foreshadows Spike's role as ordinary human on AtS. Just a thought, given the amount of foreshadowing that BtVS does (which of course Spring has made me aware). Minor point - I don't recall any mention of being Xander's cousin . . . I haven't gone to check, but I think he says "I'm a friend of Xander's." I do believe that Spike is Xander's clothes is one more way of emphasizing the freakish extent of his "humanity" - and whether that scene and others that show Spike as "very human" foreshadow and actual return to humanity . . . well, we shall see!
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Post by Nickim on Jun 8, 2003 9:16:54 GMT -5
Minor point - I don't recall any mention of being Xander's cousin . . . I haven't gone to check, but I think he says "I'm a friend of Xander's." I do believe that Spike is Xander's clothes is one more way of emphasizing the freakish extent of his "humanity" - and whether that scene and others that show Spike as "very human" foreshadow and actual return to humanity . . . well, we shall see! I just loved Spike's ridiculous accent, and I think you're right Spring, he says "a friend of Xander's".
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Post by Kerrie on Jun 8, 2003 16:42:22 GMT -5
You are probably right.
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Post by fish1941 on Feb 8, 2006 18:09:34 GMT -5
From "Doomed" review:
I don't know if I would consider such advice completely bad.
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 9, 2006 11:02:47 GMT -5
From "Doomed" review: I don't know if I would consider such advice completely bad. fish1941! Thanks for your comment on my Doomed review. Yes, so true - Giles' advice is not bad advice at all, in a general way. It's only bad advice in that very specific instance, because Giles is mistaken about the earthquake not meaning anything. But taken by itself, the advice to concentrate "on what is" is good advice. It's just that the earthquake is something that fits with "what is," but he doesn't realize it.
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Post by myhathasacow on Jun 15, 2010 14:16:51 GMT -5
Great analysis, as always!
I just re-watched the episode, and I can't help thinking of it as the light Spike counterpart to the more serious, Angel-focused episode "Amends".
Both episodes show their respective vampires as depressed and lacking a sense of purpose - Angel because The First keeps telling him how much evil he's done, and Spike because he can't commit any more evil. Both episodes show their respective vampire attempting suicide. Whilst Angel's attempt is passive (waiting for the sun to come up) and angsty, Spike's is active (staking himself) and funny. Nevertheless, both vampires end their respective episodes having decided to fight on the side of good (albeit for very different reasons).
I also think that the miracle of "Amends" gets a bit of a reference when Spike says he wants to fight demons: "For justice - and for - the safety of puppies – and Christmas, right?" Angel gets his Christmas miracle from the Powers That Be in "Amends" when it snows in Sunnydale - how long until freshly recruited evil-fighter Spike gets his?
For my final parallel, look at Riley's speech to Buffy in this episode:
“Welcome to the story of the world. Things fall apart Buffy. And evil – it comes and goes. But the way people manage is, they don’t do it alone. They pull each other through."
Doesn't it remind you a little of Buffy's speech to Angel in "Amends":
"Strong is fighting! It's hard, and it's painful, and it's every day. It's what we have to do. And we can do it together."
They're both trying to save the person they're talking to: Buffy is talking Angel out of suicide, whilst Riley is trying to persuade Buffy not to shut down and give up on love (after all, without passion, we'd be truly dead) Both speech-makers get what they want in the short term. Angel chooses to live and fight alongside Buffy in "Amends", and Buffy goes to kiss Riley at the end of "Doomed".
But of course Buffy and Riley are doomed, whilst Angel and Buffy split at the end of Season 3 (and "Amends" is certainly not the last we'll see of Angel/us' inner turmoil).
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Jun 15, 2010 16:44:22 GMT -5
Welcome, myhat. I like your analysis. I hadn't made the connection between the two before, but it certainly does bear much thinkage.
Meantime, feel free to drop in on the general discussion board where we talk about everydamnthing.
What else do you watch?
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Post by SpringSummers on Jun 15, 2010 17:31:52 GMT -5
Great analysis, as always! I just re-watched the episode, and I can't help thinking of it as the light Spike counterpart to the more serious, Angel-focused episode "Amends". Both episodes show their respective vampires as depressed and lacking a sense of purpose - Angel because The First keeps telling him how much evil he's done, and Spike because he can't commit any more evil. Both episodes show their respective vampire attempting suicide. Whilst Angel's attempt is passive (waiting for the sun to come up) and angsty, Spike's is active (staking himself) and funny. Nevertheless, both vampires end their respective episodes having decided to fight on the side of good (albeit for very different reasons). I also think that the miracle of "Amends" gets a bit of a reference when Spike says he wants to fight demons: "For justice - and for - the safety of puppies – and Christmas, right?" Angel gets his Christmas miracle from the Powers That Be in "Amends" when it snows in Sunnydale - how long until freshly recruited evil-fighter Spike gets his? For my final parallel, look at Riley's speech to Buffy in this episode: “Welcome to the story of the world. Things fall apart Buffy. And evil – it comes and goes. But the way people manage is, they don’t do it alone. They pull each other through." Doesn't it remind you a little of Buffy's speech to Angel in "Amends": "Strong is fighting! It's hard, and it's painful, and it's every day. It's what we have to do. And we can do it together." They're both trying to save the person they're talking to: Buffy is talking Angel out of suicide, whilst Riley is trying to persuade Buffy not to shut down and give up on love (after all, without passion, we'd be truly dead) Both speech-makers get what they want in the short term. Angel chooses to live and fight alongside Buffy in "Amends", and Buffy goes to kiss Riley at the end of "Doomed". But of course Buffy and Riley are doomed, whilst Angel and Buffy split at the end of Season 3 (and "Amends" is certainly not the last we'll see of Angel/us' inner turmoil). Very interesting angle there, myhat. You make me want to watch this again, soon. Usually, if another ep is being deliberately paralleled, there will be quite a lot of little references. (If you've read my "The Replacement" review, which very much refers back to "Passion," you'll see what I mean.) You've mentioned a couple similarities here . . . the suicide attempt, the Riley speech, the mention of Christmas - would love to take a look and see if there are any more. Thanks for your comment!
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Post by myhathasacow on Feb 2, 2013 7:29:49 GMT -5
I saw this ep again recently and it made me so sad for Riley. That great speech he gives - "The way people manage is, they don’t do it alone. They pull each other through." And Buffy does take a chance on Riley, but she never really lets him in the way she let Angel (or later on, Spike) in, and she certainly didn't let Riley "pull her through" Joyce's illness.
I love the way this show wrote about love/relationships/intimacy. Sometimes you can't really love someone, even if you want to, because you were burned too badly in the past. Sometimes you meet someone who's Mr Tall Handsome Romantic Lead, straight out of central casting, but they're not the one you really, passionately want. It feels real.
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Feb 2, 2013 21:07:36 GMT -5
I saw this ep again recently and it made me so sad for Riley. That great speech he gives - "The way people manage is, they don’t do it alone. They pull each other through." And Buffy does take a chance on Riley, but she never really lets him in the way she let Angel (or later on, Spike) in, and she certainly didn't let Riley "pull her through" Joyce's illness. I love the way this show wrote about love/relationships/intimacy. Sometimes you can't really love someone, even if you want to, because you were burned too badly in the past. Sometimes you meet someone who's Mr Tall Handsome Romantic Lead, straight out of central casting, but they're not the one you really, passionately want. It feels real. Hello, Hat. I think that the reason that Buffy couldn't open up completely to Riley was that it was too soon after breaking up with Angel. Essentially, Riley, for all his good qualities, never got past "rebound guy" status. When you're burned as badly as Buffy was romantically it sometimes takes years before you're really ready to trust again.
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 4, 2013 10:20:05 GMT -5
I saw this ep again recently and it made me so sad for Riley. That great speech he gives - "The way people manage is, they don’t do it alone. They pull each other through." And Buffy does take a chance on Riley, but she never really lets him in the way she let Angel (or later on, Spike) in, and she certainly didn't let Riley "pull her through" Joyce's illness. I love the way this show wrote about love/relationships/intimacy. Sometimes you can't really love someone, even if you want to, because you were burned too badly in the past. Sometimes you meet someone who's Mr Tall Handsome Romantic Lead, straight out of central casting, but they're not the one you really, passionately want. It feels real. I definitely agree with Diane that Buffy basically had her heart "shut down" after being burned so badly with Angel (and also, in a way, Parker). So that pretty much precluded her letting anyone really close. Though, beyond that, there was also a feeling that even "open-hearted," Buffy and Riley were not that great a match. They had such different ways about them, such different views of, and approaches to, life. And yes, love the Riley speech. I liked Riley, though like all the others, he had some growing up to do. He seemed to have done pretty well for himself when we seem him again in S6.
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Feb 4, 2013 22:14:29 GMT -5
I saw this ep again recently and it made me so sad for Riley. That great speech he gives - "The way people manage is, they don’t do it alone. They pull each other through." And Buffy does take a chance on Riley, but she never really lets him in the way she let Angel (or later on, Spike) in, and she certainly didn't let Riley "pull her through" Joyce's illness. I love the way this show wrote about love/relationships/intimacy. Sometimes you can't really love someone, even if you want to, because you were burned too badly in the past. Sometimes you meet someone who's Mr Tall Handsome Romantic Lead, straight out of central casting, but they're not the one you really, passionately want. It feels real. I definitely agree with Diane that Buffy basically had her heart "shut down" after being burned so badly with Angel (and also, in a way, Parker). So that pretty much precluded her letting anyone really close. Though, beyond that, there was also a feeling that even "open-hearted," Buffy and Riley were not that great a match. They had such different ways about them, such different views of, and approaches to, life. And yes, love the Riley speech. I liked Riley, though like all the others, he had some growing up to do. He seemed to have done pretty well for himself when we seem him again in S6. You forget that Buffy was hurt long before this by her parents' divorce. Her father essentially wrote her out of his life by Season 3. Kids who are deserted by a parent often have severe trust issues. You follow that up with Angel's turning bad and the nasty business with Parker and the question isn't why she wouldn't let Riley in--it's how did she manage to let him in as far as he got. And Riley--the psych post-grad--ought to have figured that out. Instead he went all whiney "poor pitiful me" when she didn't -- couldn't react the way he wanted her to.
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