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Post by William the Bloody on Nov 21, 2003 21:38:23 GMT -5
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Post by makd on Nov 21, 2003 22:02:27 GMT -5
Lee
great review!
I like the title -- our boys really do need to grow up! And when they do, what a dynamic duo they will make.
I also like that you included the "this and that". Those little things that made us think...
thanks, again. great job.
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Post by makd on Nov 21, 2003 22:02:52 GMT -5
Thank you, Vlad.
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 22, 2003 2:57:49 GMT -5
Boys will be boys, even vampire centenarian boys. Spike and Angel both have a lot of growing up to do. I've noticed that even mention of Spike, as in that opening scene in CHOSEN, brings out the petulant child in Angel; and that Spike behaves more maturely when 'Gramps' isn't around.
Pavayne referred to Spike as "Boy", and Hainsley called him "Son". Yet Spike defeated both of them. This is no longer the pathetic Spike of BUFFY's seasons past. Those who under-estimate Spike are usually proven wrong.
Now that Spike has won a hard-fought battle against his grandsire/surrogate father, will he mature? I think he will, but not by much. We don't really want another completely noble, long-suffering, well-mannered souled vamp around, do we? Angel Jr.? Let's hope not.
Great job, Lee!
[glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Nov 22, 2003 10:19:31 GMT -5
Well done Lee! I love having all these reviews to read - the episodes get much more interesting!
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Post by Nickim on Nov 22, 2003 16:18:15 GMT -5
Awesome review, Lee. I know I wanted to smack 'em. A little of the "I hate you" "Oh yeah, well, I hate you more" goes a long way. Guess that's why Wesley is my favorite character right now. I'm hoping that Spike will make me change my mind before too long. ;D
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Post by Linda on Nov 22, 2003 17:07:48 GMT -5
Hi Lee!
Thanks for the great review.
If I may offer a slight disagreement -- I hope they don't grow up (too much, at least) 'cause some of the funniest moments in BtVS and AtS are the childish, petulant ones.
I loved the sight of Angel's face taped to Spike's punching bag in Chosen. And Angel's reaction to Lindsey's most excellent singing in Dead End (scheduled to rerun on TNT on Tuesday 11/25/03 check your local listings!). And Angel's smirk at Riley as he walked out with Buffy on the Yoko Factor. Hee.
And on a more serious note, I'm not totally convinced that Spike really abdicated responsibility for his evil acts. During a Truth Smackdown, words are weapons, and your strongest weapons are your opponent's deepest emotional truths (and fears). So when he told Angel about why he (Angel) couldn't stand the sight of him (Spike), he was revealing Angel, not himself. If Angelus taught him anything, it would be to not hand your enemy another weapon. So Spike would have no reason to reveal his own burden of guilt to Angel during the fight.
And may I also say that I LOVE Spike's Truth Smackdowns -- so primal, painful and pivotal. The one he had with Buffy in Smashed ended in, well, zipper anyone? The last one he had before Destiny was the one with Robin Wood in Lies My Parents Told Me and Spike emerged as the consummate warrior. I wonder what he'll be after this one?
Can't wait to find out!
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Post by Nickim on Nov 22, 2003 17:54:36 GMT -5
Meant to put this in my first comment, but I'm braindead today. I loved your insight into William telling Angelus his feelings about Dru. Angelus immediately used that against William. Angelus lets William out of the coach to go on foot and immediately goes to find Dru himself. Poor William. He was way too sensitive when he was alive and he stayed that way, for a while anyway, after he died and was turned.
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Post by makd on Nov 22, 2003 21:48:20 GMT -5
Meant to put this in my first comment, but I'm braindead today. I loved your insight into William telling Angelus his feelings about Dru. Angelus immediately used that against William. Angelus lets William out of the coach to go on foot and immediately goes to find Dru himself. Poor William. He was way too sensitive when he was alive and he stayed that way, for a while anyway, after he died and was turned. hence the snarkiness. He learned, quickly, to snark instead of reveal his sensitivity. 123 years later, he still snarks. and, yes, the word I'd use for Spike's dialogue in the fight scene is primal.
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Post by Karen on Nov 23, 2003 13:18:28 GMT -5
Thanks, Lee! For sharing your feelings in your review. I like how in doing so, you illustrated the gut reaction most of us had to this episode.
I wasn't thinking so much, "grow up", as "what the heck are you guys doing fighting for a "cup of perpetual torment"? Doesn't seem like something I'd go for. And isn't the human condition a "cup of perpetual torment", so why want the Shanshu? Maybe the answer in the Shanshu will not be so much who wants it or deserves it more, but who needs it the most? I don't know.
This episode left me going Hmmmm? A lot. You could take one theme and expound on it all day.
Thanks again for a great review!
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Post by Wendy on Nov 23, 2003 14:44:59 GMT -5
I didn't think "Oh Grow Up" as much as "It's about time." Not to be disagreeable, but I was actually hoping they would have this fight. Growing up with 2 brothers and and having 2 sons of my own, I think sometimes a fight is needed for *boys to clear the air. Please note that I am not in any way condoning violence, and certainly don't accept it among my children, however, as an observer of the nature of boys, it seems that, in the case where the boys actually care about each other(as I think our vampires do), once the fight is over, they can let go of the issue that caused it and become better friends. Which is why I hoped for this fight as I think it may bring them closer together. This also reminds me of a quote from Matrix 2 that Seraph said to Neo: "You never truly know somebody until you fight them." It's been awhile since Angel and Spike had a good slug fest, and each could show the other what they were about, as they have both changed considerably since their last brawl. Spike has changed and Angel has to deal with that now. He might even eventually be proud that one he grandsired would go to the lengths he did to get his soul. Rather than be reminded of the horrible things he taught Spike, he can see one of his own has chosen the same path that he is on. Now if he could only stop thinking of his soul as a curse instead of the gift that it really is, I think he may finally mature and be the father figure that the FG needs. I do agree that both of them need to move on and put all of this behind them. I think the fight may the catalyst to doing this.
Now I could be "Jossed" the next new episode and they may hate each other even more, but I am hopeful that our two favorite souled vampires can work out their differences for the sake of good. Angel may already be trying, he did say "Please" to Spike, after all.
And Lee, my fellow Alabamian, you did a great job with your review. I wouldn't have even known where to begin with this episode. So many layers to uncover, so much back story to consider. I thought you did a great review!
Wendy
* In the case of RL boys, a verbal confrontation is usually enough to clear the air, but when talking about vampires, we accept the physical fight more readily.
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Post by Wendy on Nov 23, 2003 14:58:01 GMT -5
Hi Lee! Thanks for the great review. And on a more serious note, I'm not totally convinced that Spike really abdicated responsibility for his evil acts. During a Truth Smackdown, words are weapons, and your strongest weapons are your opponent's deepest emotional truths (and fears). So when he told Angel about why he (Angel) couldn't stand the sight of him (Spike), he was revealing Angel, not himself. If Angelus taught him anything, it would be to not hand your enemy another weapon. So Spike would have no reason to reveal his own burden of guilt to Angel during the fight. And may I also say that I LOVE Spike's Truth Smackdowns -- so primal, painful and pivotal. The one he had with Buffy in Smashed ended in, well, zipper anyone? The last one he had before Destiny was the one with Robin Wood in Lies My Parents Told Me and Spike emerged as the consummate warrior. I wonder what he'll be after this one? Can't wait to find out! ITA, I believe he was revealing Angel as well. Enough ammo out there without bringing up his own shortcomings. Spike is good with the Smackdowns. Always able to see the truth about people. Like he said in Life of the Party, SPIKE: Ooh, ooh! Me! Me! I'm your people person. Wendy
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Nov 23, 2003 17:13:28 GMT -5
Lee, I enjoyed reading your review of this great episode, particularly because you managed to make me disagree with you AND agree with you in the same review! Which is fun.
I actually enjoyed the fighting and bickering between the S3 (sexy souled suckers) and don't want them to become much more mature or I won't be able to relate to them.
But I really agreed with your comments about Spike's naivety in revealing his emotions and needs to Angelus, about Drusilla.
Great review, thanks Lee!
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 23, 2003 17:25:18 GMT -5
Lee, great insight about the conversation btwn Angelus and William. I hadn't even considered the idea that Angelus went out and found Dru after he'd dropped William off. Revealing the intensity of his feelings to Angelus was definitely William's undoing. This ep neatly raises the old nature vs. nurture debate. How much of Spike's evil resulted from his own darkness? How much from Angelus' influence? William (one might think) would have been content with the 3 F's of vampire existence - Feeding, Fighting, and F*cking - if not for Angelus.
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 23, 2003 20:57:19 GMT -5
I didn't think "Oh Grow Up" as much as "It's about time." Not to be disagreeable, but I was actually hoping they would have this fight. Growing up with 2 brothers and and having 2 sons of my own, I think sometimes a fight is needed for *boys to clear the air. Please note that I am not in any way condoning violence, and certainly don't accept it among my children, however, as an observer of the nature of boys, it seems that, in the case where the boys actually care about each other(as I think our vampires do), once the fight is over, they can let go of the issue that caused it and become better friends. Which is why I hoped for this fight as I think it may bring them closer together. This also reminds me of a quote from Matrix 2 that Seraph said to Neo: "You never truly know somebody until you fight them." It's been awhile since Angel and Spike had a good slug fest, and each could show the other what they were about, as they have both changed considerably since their last brawl. Spike has changed and Angel has to deal with that now. He might even eventually be proud that one he grandsired would go to the lengths he did to get his soul. Rather than be reminded of the horrible things he taught Spike, he can see one of his own has chosen the same path that he is on. Now if he could only stop thinking of his soul as a curse instead of the gift that it really is, I think he may finally mature and be the father figure that the FG needs. I do agree that both of them need to move on and put all of this behind them. I think the fight may the catalyst to doing this. Now I could be "Jossed" the next new episode and they may hate each other even more, but I am hopeful that our two favorite souled vampires can work out their differences for the sake of good. Angel may already be trying, he did say "Please" to Spike, after all. And Lee, my fellow Alabamian, you did a great job with your review. I wouldn't have even known where to begin with this episode. So many layers to uncover, so much back story to consider. I thought you did a great review! Wendy* In the case of RL boys, a verbal confrontation is usually enough to clear the air, but when talking about vampires, we accept the physical fight more readily. ITA, Wendy! Angel and Spike's long-overdue slugfest cleared the air in more ways than one. Notice how calm and quiet they were on returning to W&H, and how neither of them mentioned the fight, or who won. Spike reported Sirk's disappearance to Gunn and Angel rather than going off half-cocked to look for Sirk or get drunk immediately.
I've mentioned it before, but I thought it was significant that after Angel showed Spike some courtesy for the first time since Spike's return, i.e. asking him "Please" to stay and not run after Buffy, Spike called him "Bossman", the first time Spike has acknowledged Angel's authority since SCHOOL HARD. Was it the fact that Angel actually acknowledged that Spike was worthy of the respect that courtesy implies, or Angel's obvious pain over Spike's intention to run off to find Buffy (even if Angel could ditch W&H and run to Buffy, he couldn't have sex with her and Spike can) that prompted Spike to call Angel "Bossman"?
[glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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