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Post by Wendy on Nov 23, 2003 21:10:29 GMT -5
ITA, Wendy! Angel and Spike's long-overdue slugfest cleared the air in more ways than one. Notice how calm and quiet they were on returning to W&H, and how neither of them mentioned the fight, or who won. Spike reported Sirk's disappearance to Gunn and Angel rather than going off half-cocked to look for Sirk or get drunk immediately.
I've mentioned it before, but I thought it was significant that after Angel showed Spike some courtesy for the first time since Spike's return, i.e. asking him "Please" to stay and not run after Buffy, Spike called him "Bossman", the first time Spike has acknowledged Angel's authority since SCHOOL HARD. Was it the fact that Angel actually acknowledged that Spike was worthy of the respect that courtesy implies, or Angel's obvious pain over Spike's intention to run off to find Buffy (even if Angel could ditch W&H and run to Buffy, he couldn't have sex with her and Spike can) that prompted Spike to call Angel "Bossman"?
[glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow] I thought that exchange between them ("Please" and "Bossman") was monumental. I would like to believe it had nothing to do with Buffy, but Angel acknowledging that Spike was worthy of respect. And Spike responding to that recognition, and accepting that Angel deserves respect as well. I don't think they will ever love each other, but I do think they can respect each other.
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 23, 2003 21:18:54 GMT -5
I thought that exchange between them ("Please" and "Bossman") was monumental. I would like to believe it had nothing to do with Buffy, but Angel acknowledging that Spike was worthy of respect. And Spike responding to that recognition, and accepting that Angel deserves respect as well. I don't think they will ever love each other, but I do think they can respect each other. This works for me, as well. On their return (presumably separate) to W&H, Angel and Spike are working as a team for the first time in a long time. Angel goes to check on the spread of the "madness" and Spike to locate Sirk. Spike knows where to find Angel, to give his report. I think the cessation of hostilities btwn Spike and Angel is what resolves the madness effecting W&H.
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Post by ldelrossi on Nov 24, 2003 8:05:57 GMT -5
Agree with you Wendy, Gail and Lady Di. The air has cleared a bit for a variety of reasons. One of the reasons was about the cup. When Angel told Spike what a burden it would be and when he asked Spike if it was just about taking something away from him and Spike admitted it was a bit of both.
Spike defeated Angel physically and he beat him to the cup. That fight, physically and verbally, revealed the inner thoughts, strengths and weaknesses of both to each other. They both have much to think about. The victor can always be gracious and I think, deep down Spike still admires Angel. Angel, despite his protests, is connected to Spike because he is his grandsire and have a history, but also because they are both vampires. They have to want to get away from humans some of the time.
We've all been hoping that they can combine their strengths for the greater good. I think they are on their way, though it will be a slow journey.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 24, 2003 11:40:36 GMT -5
I thought that exchange between them ("Please" and "Bossman") was monumental. I would like to believe it had nothing to do with Buffy, but Angel acknowledging that Spike was worthy of respect. And Spike responding to that recognition, and accepting that Angel deserves respect as well. I don't think they will ever love each other, but I do think they can respect each other. Nice review, Lee - and I say that even though I do worry it will all go to your head, and make you even more inclined to share your opinions and ask more questions. Wnde1drs: I notice you mention love, and actually, I think Spike and Angel do love one another, in that love/hate kind of intense, familial way. Lee: I don't think Spike blames Angel for his monstrous crimes - we've seen/heard him take responsibility for them. I thought it was Spike simply telling Angel the truth: "You're the one who taught me, and you know that, and that's why you hate the sight of me." He did say this in a deliberately dramatic way, but I don't think his purposely dramatic, heat of the moment "you made me a monster" was meant to negate all we saw in S7 of BtVS (that clearly showed us that Spike does take responsibility for his crimes). What I mean is - e.g. - I can understand that my parents had everything to do with shaping me, while still understanding that ultimately I am responsible for my own behavior. I think Spike's willingness to take responsibility for "his monster" is why he's stronger than Angel right now. I just am not sure where we are heading with this. How can Angel - given his curse - hope to ever integrate his "Angelus," or allow himself to see Angelus as the part of him that he is? If he does this, a huge source of his suffering will be relieved. Can that be "allowed?" Notice how we listen to Angel insist on the black and white, on "one way or another" while Spike responds: "a bit of both." I am curious to see where it is all going.
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Post by makd on Nov 24, 2003 13:15:09 GMT -5
Nice review, Lee - and I say that even though I do worry it will all go to your head, and make you even more inclined to share your opinions and ask more questions. Wnde1drs: I notice you mention love, and actually, I think Spike and Angel do love one another, in that love/hate kind of intense, familial way. Lee: I don't think Spike blames Angel for his monstrous crimes - we've seen/heard him take responsibility for them. I thought it was Spike simply telling Angel the truth: "You're the one who taught me, and you know that, and that's why you hate the sight of me." He did say this in a deliberately dramatic way, but I don't think his purposely dramatic, heat of the moment "you made me a monster" was meant to negate all we saw in S7 of BtVS (that clearly showed us that Spike does take responsibility for his crimes). What I mean is - e.g. - I can understand that my parents had everything to do with shaping me, while still understanding that ultimately I am responsible for my own behavior. I think Spike's willingness to take responsibility for "his monster" is why he's stronger than Angel right now. I just am not sure where we are heading with this. How can Angel - given his curse - hope to ever integrate his "Angelus," or allow himself to see Angelus as the part of him that he is? If he does this, a huge source of his suffering will be relieved. Can that be "allowed?" Notice how we listen to Angel insist on the black and white, on "one way or another" while Spike responds: "a bit of both." I am curious to see where it is all going. At some risk: peas in the pod.
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 24, 2003 15:30:06 GMT -5
Nice review, Lee - and I say that even though I do worry it will all go to your head, and make you even more inclined to share your opinions and ask more questions. Wnde1drs: I notice you mention love, and actually, I think Spike and Angel do love one another, in that love/hate kind of intense, familial way. Lee: I don't think Spike blames Angel for his monstrous crimes - we've seen/heard him take responsibility for them. I thought it was Spike simply telling Angel the truth: "You're the one who taught me, and you know that, and that's why you hate the sight of me." He did say this in a deliberately dramatic way, but I don't think his purposely dramatic, heat of the moment "you made me a monster" was meant to negate all we saw in S7 of BtVS (that clearly showed us that Spike does take responsibility for his crimes). What I mean is - e.g. - I can understand that my parents had everything to do with shaping me, while still understanding that ultimately I am responsible for my own behavior. I think Spike's willingness to take responsibility for "his monster" is why he's stronger than Angel right now. I just am not sure where we are heading with this. How can Angel - given his curse - hope to ever integrate his "Angelus," or allow himself to see Angelus as the part of him that he is? If he does this, a huge source of his suffering will be relieved. Can that be "allowed?" Notice how we listen to Angel insist on the black and white, on "one way or another" while Spike responds: "a bit of both." I am curious to see where it is all going. I loved Spike's "Bit o'both." Spike has never been just one thing or another. Never wanted just one thing or another ("First I'll kill her, then I'll save her"). Even when he was evil, he was capable of loving/caring for Dru. He enjoys human food, crumbling Wheetabix into his blood. He was a bad boy with a good man inside. He was a ghost, but not really, and now he's corporeal again.
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 25, 2003 2:22:54 GMT -5
I loved Spike's "Bit o'both." Spike has never been just one thing or another. Never wanted just one thing or another ("First I'll kill her, then I'll save her"). Even when he was evil, he was capable of loving/caring for Dru. He enjoys human food, crumbling Wheetabix into his blood. He was a bad boy with a good man inside. He was a ghost, but not really, and now he's corporeal again. Good point, and one that leads me to a crucial difference between our two Soul-vamps.
Perhaps Spike's wanting - and seeing - more than one thing, the ability to see the shades of gray as well as the black and white - is why JW referred to him as "more evolved" than Angel. Spike has integrated his demon into his character, while Angel has compartmentalized his. Spike can easily let down his barriers and talk to nice women and others, Angel tends to control but has trouble breaking the ice sometimes. But remember, Spike is not as focussed as Angel (with the exception of matters of love, i.e. Drusilla or Buffy). Angel's focus and, to an extent, disciplined thinking, helps to make him an outstanding leader and strategist. Spike's thinking is anything but disciplined, it goes all over the place; he could use some of Angel's focus but is much more an in-the-moment type of person.
Spike could benefit by trying to impose some of Angel's mental discipline on himself; Angel could benefit by occasionally living more in the moment and savoring simple pleasures, not to mention trying to find passion in his considerable heroism. (of course, has anyone noticed that when Angel unbends, he can be rather goofy? I would like to see that goofy side come out and play with Spike in a non-slashy way, now that they're both souled, it could be very fun/funny)[glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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Post by ldelrossi on Nov 25, 2003 7:38:22 GMT -5
I absolutely agree Gail. Again you said eloquently what I was thinking. If Angel and Spike combined their strengths - what a team they would be. They could defeat W&H, Evel and Lindsey! Of course, then there might not be any evil and the show would be over! ;D Like Lee I want to shake both of them and force them to see past their superficial differences and to see how amazing both of them are!
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 25, 2003 14:47:43 GMT -5
Good point, and one that leads me to a crucial difference between our two Soul-vamps.
Perhaps Spike's wanting - and seeing - more than one thing, the ability to see the shades of gray as well as the black and white - is why JW referred to him as "more evolved" than Angel. Spike has integrated his demon into his character, while Angel has compartmentalized his. Spike can easily let down his barriers and talk to nice women and others, Angel tends to control but has trouble breaking the ice sometimes. But remember, Spike is not as focussed as Angel (with the exception of matters of love, i.e. Drusilla or Buffy). Angel's focus and, to an extent, disciplined thinking, helps to make him an outstanding leader and strategist. Spike's thinking is anything but disciplined, it goes all over the place; he could use some of Angel's focus but is much more an in-the-moment type of person.
Spike could benefit by trying to impose some of Angel's mental discipline on himself; Angel could benefit by occasionally living more in the moment and savoring simple pleasures, not to mention trying to find passion in his considerable heroism. (of course, has anyone noticed that when Angel unbends, he can be rather goofy? I would like to see that goofy side come out and play with Spike in a non-slashy way, now that they're both souled, it could be very fun/funny)[glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow] I think the "more evolved" comment could have many meanings. The way I interpret it (and I could be wrong), Spike is more complete than Angel. He's closer to...something - enlightenment, maybe. Angel lives in the past, Spike in the now. Angel's so afraid of what he might do (as Angelus), he's constricted in what he can do. His soul was forced on him and it's easily lost. Spike has no such limitations. He has the opportunity to explore more aspects of himself and find out what he's really capable of. The chip was forced on him, but it wasn't gonna control him forever. Once he got his soul, the chip was redundant. Buffy believed the soul would keep Spike from killing innocents again, even tho' Warren and Willow had killed despite their souls. So it isn't just the soul she's trusting, it's the demon who won back that soul. I get so angry about the "Spike only did good/won back his soul to get in Buffy's pants" argument 'cuz I can't believe anyone would put him/herself thru that much pain and suffering just for a little nookie. It's a very simplistic rendering of a more complex situation.
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Post by Nickim on Nov 25, 2003 15:08:25 GMT -5
I think the "more evolved" comment could have many meanings. The way I interpret it (and I could be wrong), Spike is more complete than Angel. He's closer to...something - enlightenment, maybe. Angel lives in the past, Spike in the now. Angel's so afraid of what he might do (as Angelus), he's constricted in what he can do. His soul was forced on him and it's easily lost. Spike has no such limitations. He has the opportunity to explore more aspects of himself and find out what he's really capable of. The chip was forced on him, but it wasn't gonna control him forever. Once he got his soul, the chip was redundant. Buffy believed the soul would keep Spike from killing innocents again, even tho' Warren and Willow had killed despite their souls. So it isn't just the soul she's trusting, it's the demon who won back that soul. I get so angry about the "Spike only did good/won back his soul to get in Buffy's pants" argument 'cuz I can't believe anyone would put him/herself thru that much pain and suffering just for a little nookie. It's a very simplistic rendering of a more complex situation. Besides, he got in her pants without the soul, but never--onscreen, anyway--with the soul. He wanted to be someone she could proud of and love. He became that man in Season 7. Also, Buffy trusts her judgement and knows they can't "fight evil by doing evil."
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 25, 2003 17:20:14 GMT -5
Nice review, Lee - and I say that even though I do worry it will all go to your head, and make you even more inclined to share your opinions and ask more questions. Wnde1drs: I notice you mention love, and actually, I think Spike and Angel do love one another, in that love/hate kind of intense, familial way. Lee: I don't think Spike blames Angel for his monstrous crimes - we've seen/heard him take responsibility for them. I thought it was Spike simply telling Angel the truth: "You're the one who taught me, and you know that, and that's why you hate the sight of me." He did say this in a deliberately dramatic way, but I don't think his purposely dramatic, heat of the moment "you made me a monster" was meant to negate all we saw in S7 of BtVS (that clearly showed us that Spike does take responsibility for his crimes). What I mean is - e.g. - I can understand that my parents had everything to do with shaping me, while still understanding that ultimately I am responsible for my own behavior. I am curious to see where it is all going. I definitely agree that Spike and Angel love each other and hate each other as family. Angel is all the family Spike has, at least that he can access. They have hurt each other in the past; let's not forget that Spike had Angel tortured just a few years ago, after Angel stole Dru and humiliated crippled Spike. They are capable of bringing out the best in each other, let's hope they do so.
GAIL
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Post by Reetta on Nov 29, 2003 15:25:11 GMT -5
I think the "more evolved" comment could have many meanings. The way I interpret it (and I could be wrong), Spike is more complete than Angel. He's closer to...something - enlightenment, maybe. Angel lives in the past, Spike in the now. Angel's so afraid of what he might do (as Angelus), he's constricted in what he can do. His soul was forced on him and it's easily lost. Spike has no such limitations. He has the opportunity to explore more aspects of himself and find out what he's really capable of. The chip was forced on him, but it wasn't gonna control him forever. Once he got his soul, the chip was redundant. Buffy believed the soul would keep Spike from killing innocents again, even tho' Warren and Willow had killed despite their souls. So it isn't just the soul she's trusting, it's the demon who won back that soul. I get so angry about the "Spike only did good/won back his soul to get in Buffy's pants" argument 'cuz I can't believe anyone would put him/herself thru that much pain and suffering just for a little nookie. It's a very simplistic rendering of a more complex situation. I agree with you, Lady Di. And with you, too, Lori, Wendy and Gail. Spike definitely lives more in the present than Angel. I just finished watching Destiny - it was the first episode I downloaded this season. Let me just say - that Eve really is annoying - I wish she could just wipe that, well, annoying smirk off her face. Like many of you have said, it really is the performance that is so bothersome. That actress really tries to bite more than she can chew. She's like a teenager trying to play an adult. But back to the episode: I complete agree with Lee's comments on William's naivete and simplicity. That was one of the main points of the episode. And what an excellent point you made about A's and W's destiny conversation. Like Wendy said, the fight definitely cleared the air - and how both Angel and Spike seemed much more at ease with themselves and with each other after that. I found Spike's constant me - me - me attitude a little disturbing. Has he been like this all season? While that attitude was appropriate for the fight scene, I think it was exaggerated a little bit too much at the beginning of the episode. Anyway, I'm downloading Hellbound next. Let's see how it turns out be there. And yes, this episode was less with the Lorne. How nice of the writers to have AH put on all his make-up for his two lines. In conclusion - and this is not going to be a very good conclusion - I too remain hopeful of Angel acknowledging that Spike is worthy of respect, and vice versa. It certainly seemed much more likely towards the end of the episode.
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 29, 2003 22:50:40 GMT -5
I agree with you, Lady Di. And with you, too, Lori, Wendy and Gail. Spike definitely lives more in the present than Angel. I just finished watching Destiny - it was the first episode I downloaded this season. Let me just say - that Eve really is annoying - I wish she could just wipe that, well, annoying smirk off her face. Like many of you have said, it really is the performance that is so bothersome. That actress really tries to bite more than she can chew. She's like a teenager trying to play an adult. But back to the episode: I complete agree with Lee's comments on William's naivete and simplicity. That was one of the main points of the episode. And what an excellent point you made about A's and W's destiny conversation. Like Wendy said, the fight definitely cleared the air - and how both Angel and Spike seemed much more at ease with themselves and with each other after that. I found Spike's constant me - me - me attitude a little disturbing. Has he been like this all season? While that attitude was appropriate for the fight scene, I think it was exaggerated a little bit too much at the beginning of the episode. Anyway, I'm downloading Hellbound next. Let's see how it turns out be there. And yes, this episode was less with the Lorne. How nice of the writers to have AH put on all his make-up for his two lines. In conclusion - and this is not going to be a very good conclusion - I too remain hopeful of Angel acknowledging that Spike is worthy of respect, and vice versa. It certainly seemed much more likely towards the end of the episode. I have two theories on Spike's me-me-me attitude this season, and they co-exist, one not precluding the other:
1. Spike doesn't have anyone to love, adore and fight/sacrifice for; now that Buffy is far away and thinks he's dead. He hasn't had much of a chance to connect with anyone at W&H; so his natural selfishness has come to the forefront more than in Sunnydale last season.
2. You'll see as you download more of this season's ANGEL episodes that Angel & Co. looked down on Spike from the moment he reappeared, treated him as a bothersome, irritating spook who at best they had to put up with and at worst (in Angel's case) they wanted him gone. With one exception; and it was for that person that Spike twice (in HELLBOUND) exhibited definitely unselfish behavior. (there's also a moment in LINEAGE where Spike tries, in a rather comical way, to be nice to Wesley after joking about him earlier in the episode) Spike probably realized that he had to be his own advocate; Buffy wasn't there to champion him. Also, Spike's reincarnation as an ineffective ghost was tremendously frustrating for someone so hyper-kinetic and antsy. I think Spike was pushing his own agenda as a reaction to being largely dismissed, ignored and ineffective. [glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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Post by Reetta on Nov 30, 2003 7:33:15 GMT -5
I have two theories on Spike's me-me-me attitude this season, and they co-exist, one not precluding the other:
1. Spike doesn't have anyone to love, adore and fight/sacrifice for; now that Buffy is far away and thinks he's dead. He hasn't had much of a chance to connect with anyone at W&H; so his natural selfishness has come to the forefront more than in Sunnydale last season.
2. You'll see as you download more of this season's ANGEL episodes that Angel & Co. looked down on Spike from the moment he reappeared, treated him as a bothersome, irritating spook who at best they had to put up with and at worst (in Angel's case) they wanted him gone. With one exception; and it was for that person that Spike twice (in HELLBOUND) exhibited definitely unselfish behavior. (there's also a moment in LINEAGE where Spike tries, in a rather comical way, to be nice to Wesley after joking about him earlier in the episode) Spike probably realized that he had to be his own advocate; Buffy wasn't there to champion him. Also, Spike's reincarnation as an ineffective ghost was tremendously frustrating for someone so hyper-kinetic and antsy. I think Spike was pushing his own agenda as a reaction to being largely dismissed, ignored and ineffective. [glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow] Thanks, Gail! Once again, that makes sense when you put it in context. I'm so glad there are people here who can explain these things to a semi-stupid person like me. Now I can steal your thoughts and impress my fellow Finnish Buffy/Angel fans with "my" profound analysis on Spike's character. Oh right, I was supposed to talk about the episode here...
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Nov 30, 2003 11:12:08 GMT -5
Great review, Lee, and a great discussion.
I just wanted to comment about the way in which the conflict between Angel and Spike is typical of brotherly rivalries which extend long beyond childhood. I'm from a large extended family (Mom was the 8th of 12 children, Dad the eldest of 6; I have cousins the way other people have casual aquaintances, and there are 30 of them living within five miles of here) and have seen these conflicts existing between brothers as old as eighty (my mother's uncles) and currently between some in their late forties and fifties. While the all-in wrestling matches and fistfights tend to taper off in the thirties, the snarking and sucker punches seem to go on forever.
Not that I think it's a good thing, mind you, just that I'm not unduly optimistic that Angel and Spike are going to move completely beyond this dynamic, even after the grand air-clearing figth and apparent cooperation of their last scenes together.
Sisterly sibling rivalry tends, by the way, to take the form of unwanted advice.
Julia, ah the tales I could tell of my cousin the biker and his little brother the redheaded landscaper
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