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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 30, 2003 14:12:02 GMT -5
I have two theories on Spike's me-me-me attitude this season, and they co-exist, one not precluding the other:
1. Spike doesn't have anyone to love, adore and fight/sacrifice for; now that Buffy is far away and thinks he's dead. He hasn't had much of a chance to connect with anyone at W&H; so his natural selfishness has come to the forefront more than in Sunnydale last season.
2. You'll see as you download more of this season's ANGEL episodes that Angel & Co. looked down on Spike from the moment he reappeared, treated him as a bothersome, irritating spook who at best they had to put up with and at worst (in Angel's case) they wanted him gone. With one exception; and it was for that person that Spike twice (in HELLBOUND) exhibited definitely unselfish behavior. (there's also a moment in LINEAGE where Spike tries, in a rather comical way, to be nice to Wesley after joking about him earlier in the episode) Spike probably realized that he had to be his own advocate; Buffy wasn't there to champion him. Also, Spike's reincarnation as an ineffective ghost was tremendously frustrating for someone so hyper-kinetic and antsy. I think Spike was pushing his own agenda as a reaction to being largely dismissed, ignored and ineffective. [glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow] I think your analysis is on target as to the reasons for Spike's annoying surface behavior. He hasn't, in reality, been at all selfish, despite all the snarking. He made enormously unselfish sacrifices twice, when he gave up chances at corporeality (the first time, despite the fact that he was feeling pulled into eternal hell). He's been willing and helpful in every episode - most often actively wanting and trying to help - EP 2: he was selflessly and deliberately essential to defeating the necromancer, EP 3: inadvertently essential in saving the werewolf girl, EP 4: selflessly and deliberately essential to defeating Pavayne and saving Fred, EP 5: He ends up portrayed as "the life of the party" and volunteers to help Angel as his "people person", EP 6: tries to help defeat the demon, and eventually provides key advice about going for the heart, EP 7: rushing to save Gunn and trying to cheer Wes up, EP 8: Staying at W&H, and not crowing about his victory over Angel. If you look at his actions instead of his words, you don't see any true selfishness beyond the extremely trivial - drinking Angel's cup of blood, blowing off steam by annoying Angel, etc. Spike is not being portrayed as selfish or unhelpful this season, far from it. But he is being portrayed as snarky and - as Gail said so well - frustrated. There is one exception: that one act with Harmony - and given that he had just recorporealized, I'm giving him a wait-and-see on that one, to see how he behaves with her once all the excitement dies down. If he keeps up the self-centered, thoughtless behavior, I am rooting for Harmony to give him some sort of very painful wake-up call. I don't see going after the cup as selfish - he had as much right to go for it as Angel did. They both wanted it and they both went after it and they were both ultimately willing to suffer whatever torments were involved. Eve & Co were playing both of them, because they were both flawed and vulnerable enough - not due to selfishness, but due to their competitive insecurities regarding one another - to be played.
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Post by Reetta on Nov 30, 2003 15:22:57 GMT -5
I think your analysis is on target as to the reasons for Spike's annoying surface behavior. He hasn't, in reality, been at all selfish, despite all the snarking. He made enormously unselfish sacrifices twice, when he gave up chances at corporeality (the first time, despite the fact that he was feeling pulled into eternal hell). He's been willing and helpful in every episode - most often actively wanting and trying to help - EP 2: he was selflessly and deliberately essential to defeating the necromancer, EP 3: inadvertently essential in saving the werewolf girl, EP 4: selflessly and deliberately essential to defeating Pavayne and saving Fred, EP 5: He ends up portrayed as "the life of the party" and volunteers to help Angel as his "people person", EP 6: tries to help defeat the demon, and eventually provides key advice about going for the heart, EP 7: rushing to save Gunn and trying to cheer Wes up, EP 8: Staying at W&H, and not crowing about his victory over Angel. If you look at his actions instead of his words, you don't see any true selfishness beyond the extremely trivial - drinking Angel's cup of blood, blowing off steam by annoying Angel, etc. Spike is not being portrayed as selfish or unhelpful this season, far from it. But he is being portrayed as snarky and - as Gail said so well - frustrated. There is one exception: that one act with Harmony - and given that he had just recorporealized, I'm giving him a wait-and-see on that one, to see how he behaves with her once all the excitement dies down. If he keeps up the self-centered, thoughtless behavior, I am rooting for Harmony to give him some sort of very painful wake-up call. I don't see going after the cup as selfish - he had as much right to go for it as Angel did. They both wanted it and they both went after it and they were both ultimately willing to suffer whatever torments were involved. Eve & Co were playing both of them, because they were both flawed and vulnerable enough - not due to selfishness, but due to their competitive insecurities regarding one another - to be played. Excellent points, Spring. I don't know if you were actually commenting on my comments (or the combination of my comments and Gail's comments or just Gail's comments or what) but I'd like to say that I didn't mean that Spike was selfish when going after the cup - I agree with you that he had as much right to go for it as Angel did - I just meant that his in the surface annoying selfish behavior (as you so well put it)was a good attitude for the fight and I think it was needed in that situation. I think you are right on target on how one has to look at his actions instead of his words. I also agree that superficially it is very easy to take his snarkiness as selfishness. It is very much true that Spike is frustrated...and so is the fact that their competitive insecurities regarding each other (once again, an excellent expression) is something that brings out the worst in them.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Nov 30, 2003 15:39:01 GMT -5
Excellent points, Spring. I don't know if you were actually commenting on my comments (or the combination of my comments and Gail's comments or just Gail's comments or what) but I'd like to say that I didn't mean that Spike was selfish when going after the cup - I agree with you that he had as much right to go for it as Angel did - I just meant that his in the surface annoying selfish behavior (as you so well put it)was a good attitude for the fight and I think it was needed in that situation. I think you are right on target on how one has to look at his actions instead of his words. I also agree that superficially it is very easy to take his snarkiness as selfishness. It is very much true that Spike is frustrated...and so is the fact that their competitive insecurities regarding each other (once again, an excellent expression) is something that brings out the worst in them. Is it also possible to look at Spike's "me me me", especially in the scene with Sirk, as a conscious parody of Angel's attitude toward the Shanshu and his position as champion? Julia
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 30, 2003 17:53:16 GMT -5
Is it also possible to look at Spike's "me me me", especially in the scene with Sirk, as a conscious parody of Angel's attitude toward the Shanshu and his position as champion? Julia I think this interpretation is as valid as any other. Let's let our Big, Strapping Hero speak for himself, shall we? Get away from ME! Stop touching ME! Buffy never loved you because you're not ME!Need I go on?
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 30, 2003 22:01:48 GMT -5
I think this interpretation is as valid as any other. Let's let our Big, Strapping Hero speak for himself, shall we? Get away from ME! Stop touching ME! Buffy never loved you because you're not ME!Need I go on? I felt really bad for Spike at the beginning of DESTINY, when he's pestering Angel for a room of his own. Our poor Spikey is a ghost, frustrated, no life of his own, with extreme concentration he can knock over a beaker or punch out a baddie. The woman he loves thinks him dead and he doesn't want to tell her he's back as a bodiless presence even if he could. And he's got no place to call his own at W&H. I imagine that Spike often feels like crying or cussing or just being by himself, and is tired of being lost within crowds of people who don't care about him. And I'm sure he didn't want to be relegated to some broom closet in the basement again.
It wouldn't have killed Angel to set up a small office or guest room for Spike to hang out, with a TV and VCR.
Angel was just not in a frame of mind where he could even admit that anything Spike asked for, other than the basic right not to be sucked into hell, might have validity. Hopefully this situation has been at least slightly changed by the events in DESTINY.
GAIL
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Nov 30, 2003 22:09:41 GMT -5
I felt really bad for Spike at the beginning of DESTINY, when he's pestering Angel for a room of his own. Our poor Spikey is a ghost, frustrated, no life of his own, with extreme concentration he can knock over a beaker or punch out a baddie. The woman he loves thinks him dead and he doesn't want to tell her he's back as a bodiless presence even if he could. And he's got no place to call his own at W&H. I imagine that Spike often feels like crying or cussing or just being by himself, and is tired of being lost within crowds of people who don't care about him. And I'm sure he didn't want to be relegated to some broom closet in the basement again.
It wouldn't have killed Angel to set up a small office or guest room for Spike to hang out, with a TV and VCR.
Angel was just not in a frame of mind where he could even admit that anything Spike asked for, other than the basic right not to be sucked into hell, might have validity. Hopefully this situation has been at least slightly changed by the events in DESTINY.
GAIL This is especially true as Spike is such a nester. The saddest line in Season 7 is when he says, when Buffy tells him he needs to get away from the school basement, "I don't have anywhere else to go." Julia
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Post by Nickim on Dec 1, 2003 20:30:26 GMT -5
This is especially true as Spike is such a nester. The saddest line in Season 7 is when he says, when Buffy tells him he needs to get away from the school basement, "I don't have anywhere else to go." Julia Spike as a nester. So true. He makes his crypt as homey as possible, he even has a nice rug on the floor. I don't understand why Buffy didn't help him find a place to stay sooner, when the school basement was so obviously affecting him. There were surely some abandoned buildings in Sunnydale.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Dec 1, 2003 21:07:19 GMT -5
Spike as a nester. So true. He makes his crypt as homey as possible, he even has a nice rug on the floor. I don't understand why Buffy didn't help him find a place to stay sooner, when the school basement was so obviously affecting him. There were surely some abandoned buildings in Sunnydale. Funny thing is, yesterday I was reading on another site and someone mentioned how sick of the Summers living room they were by the end of Season 7. At the end, none of them seemed to have "anywhere else to go". Julia
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Post by Kerrie on Apr 12, 2004 23:36:07 GMT -5
Great review, Lee. My only criticism is that it was too restrained and did not list all of the irritations in this irritating episode. I suppose that you were trying to keep to the word-limit and tackle the major annoyance thoroughly.
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Post by Kerrie on Apr 12, 2004 23:38:51 GMT -5
I think your analysis is on target as to the reasons for Spike's annoying surface behavior. He hasn't, in reality, been at all selfish, despite all the snarking. He made enormously unselfish sacrifices twice, when he gave up chances at corporeality (the first time, despite the fact that he was feeling pulled into eternal hell). He's been willing and helpful in every episode - most often actively wanting and trying to help - EP 2: he was selflessly and deliberately essential to defeating the necromancer, EP 3: inadvertently essential in saving the werewolf girl, EP 4: selflessly and deliberately essential to defeating Pavayne and saving Fred, EP 5: He ends up portrayed as "the life of the party" and volunteers to help Angel as his "people person", EP 6: tries to help defeat the demon, and eventually provides key advice about going for the heart, EP 7: rushing to save Gunn and trying to cheer Wes up, EP 8: Staying at W&H, and not crowing about his victory over Angel. If you look at his actions instead of his words, you don't see any true selfishness beyond the extremely trivial - drinking Angel's cup of blood, blowing off steam by annoying Angel, etc. Spike is not being portrayed as selfish or unhelpful this season, far from it. But he is being portrayed as snarky and - as Gail said so well - frustrated. There is one exception: that one act with Harmony - and given that he had just recorporealized, I'm giving him a wait-and-see on that one, to see how he behaves with her once all the excitement dies down. If he keeps up the self-centered, thoughtless behavior, I am rooting for Harmony to give him some sort of very painful wake-up call. I don't see going after the cup as selfish - he had as much right to go for it as Angel did. They both wanted it and they both went after it and they were both ultimately willing to suffer whatever torments were involved. Eve & Co were playing both of them, because they were both flawed and vulnerable enough - not due to selfishness, but due to their competitive insecurities regarding one another - to be played. That is a very large thing to ignore. I found it difficult to believe that Spike had any soul at all in this episode. It seemed to reek of pre-soul, pre-Buffy Spike. He seemed a lot more obviously selflishly motivated in this ep than in other eps.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 13, 2004 7:50:34 GMT -5
That is a very large thing to ignore. I found it difficult to believe that Spike had any soul at all in this episode. It seemed to reek of pre-soul, pre-Buffy Spike. He seemed a lot more obviously selflishly motivated in this ep than in other eps. I guess you mean the Harmony-thing? I agree it shouldn't be ignored, hence the not ignoring it. Taken as a whole, Spike has not been "the soul of selfishness" this Season, far (far, far, far) from it. He's far from perfect as well, and like all of Joss's characters (and actual people), can exhibit childishness, selfishness, thoughtlessness, etc. He and Angel were doing their "competitive"' thing in this episode, definitely. They were even using their supposedly beloved Buffy as a weapon to hurt each other. It all seemed to me to be about the intensity of the Angel/Spike rivalry, not about either one being intrinisically selfish outside of that.
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Post by Cal on Apr 13, 2004 9:11:53 GMT -5
I guess you mean the Harmony-thing? I agree it shouldn't be ignored, hence the not ignoring it. Taken as a whole, Spike has not been "the soul of selfishness" this Season, far (far, far, far) from it. He's far from perfect as well, and like all of Joss's characters (and actual people), can exhibit childishness, selfishness, thoughtlessness, etc. He and Angel were doing their "competitive"' thing in this episode, definitely. They were even using their supposedly beloved Buffy as a weapon to hurt each other. It all seemed to me to be about the intensity of the Angel/Spike rivalry, not about either one being intrinisically selfish outside of that. I agree with you completely here Spring. The only thing I didn't like in " Destiny" was the Harmony episode. But even that is understandable. Spike has just been made corporeal again and lets face it, he's always enjoyed the physical side of life. I don't think it was selfish. Harmony was a willing partner. She knows how Spike feels about Buffy. The Angel/Spike "relationship" has been the most interesting thing about this season for me. Neither are perfect, both can behave selfishly at times. Having a soul doesn't change that. I was pleased that Spike beat Angel to the "fake" cup. Not because I like Spike more, but because at that time, I think he both deserved and wanted it more than Angel did.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 13, 2004 13:43:49 GMT -5
I agree with you completely here Spring. The only thing I didn't like in " Destiny" was the Harmony episode. But even that is understandable. Spike has just been made corporeal again and lets face it, he's always enjoyed the physical side of life. I don't think it was selfish. Harmony was a willing partner. She knows how Spike feels about Buffy. The Angel/Spike "relationship" has been the most interesting thing about this season for me. Neither are perfect, both can behave selfishly at times. Having a soul doesn't change that. I was pleased that Spike beat Angel to the "fake" cup. Not because I like Spike more, but because at that time, I think he both deserved and wanted it more than Angel did. Same here. It confirmed what I think the whole Spike now in LA thing is all about: Spike is ahead of Angel right now, just as he is ahead of him on the road, in the Viper. He's much farther along as far as integrating his soul with his darkside, because he doesn't deny that darkside. He's much more ready to shanshu (Not that I think either one will, considering how we are ending the series unexpectedly, rather than as Joss hoped to end it). On the surface, it seems as if Angel is the one who is constantly dealing with his guilt, but in actually, Spike is the one who takes responsibility for his soulless acts and has therefore dealt much more successfully with his guilt. You can't really deal with your guilt, if you don't claim it. Angel can't really admit to himself that Angelus is a part of him, that in fact, he IS Angelus with a soul, and Angelus is he without a soul. But they are both the same guy. There is only him. And he is responsible for Angelus' acts. I think Spike is meant to help Angel with all that. If Angel could ever get where Spike is, he could stop being so afraid of the curse and could really climb out of that pit of broodiness.
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Post by Kerrie on Apr 13, 2004 17:46:33 GMT -5
I guess you mean the Harmony-thing? I agree it shouldn't be ignored, hence the not ignoring it. Taken as a whole, Spike has not been "the soul of selfishness" this Season, far (far, far, far) from it. He's far from perfect as well, and like all of Joss's characters (and actual people), can exhibit childishness, selfishness, thoughtlessness, etc. He and Angel were doing their "competitive"' thing in this episode, definitely. They were even using their supposedly beloved Buffy as a weapon to hurt each other. It all seemed to me to be about the intensity of the Angel/Spike rivalry, not about either one being intrinisically selfish outside of that. Yes I meant the Harmony thing. Sorry to be so incoherent. I agree that over the course of the season Spike has not been selfish. I confess I rather suspect David Fury of not really always writing Spike fairly. I would have forgiven soulless Spike for taking Angel's blood, using Harmony for sexual pleasure when he knows that she is attached to him and that he loves Buffy, getting a head-start on Angel regarding the cup and even trying to upset Angel by using Buffy to hurt him. However, whilst some of these things I would over-look because of their rivalry the treatment of Buffy and Harmony are two things that I draw the line at. They are unconscionable. I thought that Spike got his soul back so that he would not be the kind of man who abuses women. Obviously, I interpreted it too broadly - he meant that he would not try to rape them. It is still OK to sully their names and exploit them if that is what you feel like doing. My bad. All is fair in love and war or the celebration of corporeality or rivalry.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 13, 2004 20:49:22 GMT -5
Yes I meant the Harmony thing. Sorry to be so incoherent. I agree that over the course of the season Spike has not been selfish. I confess I rather suspect David Fury of not really always writing Spike fairly. I would have forgiven soulless Spike for taking Angel's blood, using Harmony for sexual pleasure when he knows that she is attached to him and that he loves Buffy, getting a head-start on Angel regarding the cup and even trying to upset Angel by using Buffy to hurt him. However, whilst some of these things I would over-look because of their rivalry the treatment of Buffy and Harmony are two things that I draw the line at. They are unconscionable. I thought that Spike got his soul back so that he would not be the kind of man who abuses women. Obviously, I interpreted it too broadly - he meant that he would not try to rape them. It is still OK to sully their names and exploit them if that is what you feel like doing. My bad. All is fair in love and war or the celebration of corporeality or rivalry. I don't understand your last sentence - I definitely did not mean to imply anything like that. I used the Harmony example, and the "using Buffy as a weapon" example as something that was NOT all right, not something that was OK because of corporeality or rivalry. In saying that I thought Spike's behavior toward Harmony was related to his sudden corporealization, and in saying that both Angel and Spike used Buffy as a weapon because of their rivalry, I was stating my theories as to why they behaved as they did. I wasn't saying (and didn't say) that their behavior was OK. I definitely find it all forgiveable (which is different than giving it approval), because subsequent behavior shows improvement. And also because all the characters are so imperfect, that not forgiving occasional heat-of-the-moment misbehavior is going to leave me with no one to like.
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