|
Post by William the Bloody on Jan 24, 2004 7:09:04 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Cal on Jan 24, 2004 9:52:32 GMT -5
Wow Makd! Brilliant review. Well thought out. Again, more questions raised than answers given in this episode. Your whole take on the Angel/Spike relationship is thought provoking and makes sense to me. Spike and Angel are both at a crossroads in their undead lives. Where will this lead them? Only time will tell. They are both searching for their "Soul Purpose" in life. Will this bring them closer together or pull them further apart? I would like to think that it will bring them closer together. As you say, these two do not hate each other - in fact they are the only family each other has really got, if they would only put their differences (and Buffy) to one side for a while. I want to see the more sensitive, likeable Spike that we knew on BTVS too. Don't get me wrong, I love snarky Spike, but I do miss the old Spike too. I would like to see more of a mixture of the two. Spike as a whole, rather than two different personalities. I hope we get to see more of that as the season continues. In my eyes, Spike is still a ladies man, but without having anyone (Buffy?) to spark off, we are seeing a different, lost, lonely Spike. He tries to cover it well, but we know, don't we? I'm sure I have probably contradicted myself more than once above, but thats what this episode, and your review Makd, has achieved well. More questions than answers, wanting to see what happens next. Wanting both our souled vampires to find what they are looking for. I feel sympathy for both Spike and Angel - they are both feeling empty at the moment, both needing something - I really feel that they could help each other in this. Well, thats my opinion. See what you have done, Makd? Once I start I can't stop. I hope I haven't sent you all to sleep and it makes some sort of sense. Well done, Makd! Cal
|
|
|
Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Jan 24, 2004 10:32:34 GMT -5
Great job! I like the format, I like the candy and the background music, you write a fun review to read.
I also like the ideas - I was just thinking, as I read, that Spike is where Buffy was, S6 after her resurrection - adrift, not knowing why he was brought back, or where he belongs - and you mentioned OMWF. Minds in the same track (except that yours works much better!).
Thank you!
|
|
|
Post by Karen on Jan 24, 2004 11:21:51 GMT -5
Makd - I can't wait to read your review, but I'm going to take your advice to heart and download your music suggestions first. I can't express in words how much I feel that music adds to any experience (and I feel that's one area in which Ats is lacking - on purpose or not?).
|
|
|
Post by makd on Jan 24, 2004 11:32:31 GMT -5
Wow Makd! Brilliant review. Well thought out. Thank you. Praise is always welcome. Again, more questions raised than answers given in this episode. Your whole take on the Angel/Spike relationship is thought provoking and makes sense to me. Spike and Angel are both at a crossroads in their undead lives. Where will this lead them? Only time will tell. They are both searching for their "Soul Purpose" in life. Will this bring them closer together or pull them further apart? I would like to think that it will bring them closer together. As you say, these two do not hate each other - in fact they are the only family each other has really got, if they would only put their differences (and Buffy) to one side for a while. Hopefully, the end of the season will not only provide us with a cliff-hanger for Season 6, but a new alliance between our Avenger Brothers. (They are sorta like Batman and Robin, only it's not just Batman that's sexy, but Robin, too. And he's older. And there's still some slash. Excuse me. OT.I want to see the more sensitive, likeable Spike that we knew on BTVS too. Don't get me wrong, I love snarky Spike, but I do miss the old Spike too. I would like to see more of a mixture of the two. Spike as a whole, rather than two different personalities. I hope we get to see more of that as the season continues. Well, as Spike finds purpose, as he learns more about who HE is, the various elements that make up Spike should come together. The sensitive should mix with the sour. For Spike, the sensitive emerges when he's in love. What can I say? He's a total dependent personality, oral to the core. Whether it's liquor, smoking, talking, fulking, whatever.....it's all a substitute for his being accepted and loved unconditionally.
I mean, think about it: We never saw Spike do any heavy drinking or smoking until Dru left him. Then, after the chip, he really started on the smoking and booze. Season 7, ensouled, unchipped? not as much with the drinking and smoking.
I realized recently, while re-watching School Hard on DVD, that Spike, in asking Sheila, "Who do you want me to be?", was revealing how very fluid his persona was. Always before, when I'd watched, I'd focused on Predator!Spike. But, in watching JustPlain!Spike, I saw the irony. and the sadness. Spike isn't just a fun, sexy, character. He's really, on a certain level, a sad, lonely character who's constantly trying to overcome the profound aloneness that was William. Remember Darla? "Who we were informs who we will be." There's the lonely git in Spike, just as there's the shallow Lothario in Angel. Each is constantly fighting their personal demon. JW has created great metaphors.
But again, I digress. In my eyes, Spike is still a ladies man, but without having anyone (Buffy?) to spark off, we are seeing a different, lost, lonely Spike. He tries to cover it well, but we know, don't we? Right there with you, Scooter. He loves women, and eventually, ME is gonna have to get him one. He plays off best with a strong, independent woman. The ball's in ME's court. (hm. Maybe I should've used another analogy.)I'm sure I have probably contradicted myself more than once above, but thats what this episode, and your review Makd, has achieved well. More questions than answers, wanting to see what happens next. Wanting both our souled vampires to find what they are looking for. I feel sympathy for both Spike and Angel - they are both feeling empty at the moment, both needing something - I really feel that they could help each other in this. ITAWell, thats my opinion. See what you have done, Makd? Once I start I can't stop. I hope I haven't sent you all to sleep and it makes some sort of sense. You have been crystal clear; it's been a nice chat. Well done, Makd! Thanks again, Cal! Come back with any more comments, ok? always welcome. Cal
|
|
|
Post by makd on Jan 24, 2004 12:01:33 GMT -5
Great job! I like the format, I like the candy and the background music, you write a fun review to read. Thanks, Anne D; compliments are always appreciated!I also like the ideas - I was just thinking, as I read, that Spike is where Buffy was, S6 after her resurrection - adrift, not knowing why he was brought back, or where he belongs - and you mentioned OMWF. Minds in the same track (except that yours works much better!). Spike has always been a reflective character. Somehow, he reflects the star, as any good supporting player. On Buffy, he reflected Buffy. On Angel, he reflects Angel. Also, Spike is a true Beta male; he will always be loyal to the Alpha. On Buffy, he became the Alpha, but he was Beta to Buffy. On Angel, he is Beta to Angel. I suspect that, by the end of the season, Angel will know that, and, if the series can last another year, by the end of next year, Angel will know that Spike's his back, just as Buffy knew that Spike was her back, too.
Spike is not only following Angel's ensoulment path, he's also following Buffy's resurrection path. I just hope he doesn't find himself in the same kind of depressing, co-dependent relationship he was in with Buffy on season 6 BtVS. That didn't end well - and not just because he died. While their love is classic (a la Bronte, etc.), it's just not healthy.
Hopefully Spike will be matched with a strong, independent woman who will encourage Spike's harmonious affability. Thank you! You're welcome. Don't be shy about coming back with more comments.
|
|
|
Post by makd on Jan 24, 2004 12:06:27 GMT -5
Makd - I can't wait to read your review, but I'm going to take your advice to heart and download your music suggestions first. I can't express in words how much I feel that music adds to any experience. Have fun! I almost never write or go online without the CD player going. (That's why, if the music is really getting to me, I sometimes include what I am listening to.) I suspect the reason for the lack of noticeable music in AtS may be the budget? Or maybe, it's a creative decision. Personally, I think, considering the age of Angel(us), there are some wonderful opportunities missed for music that spans the centuries - from Bach to Straus to ragtime, jazz, pop, rock, etc. So many possibilities. Their music track could be as memorable as Northern Exposure's, but I don't think they want that effect. I think there's more of a decision for stillness, hence little "notable" music. Come back and let's chat about the episode, ok? I'm looking forward to it.
|
|
|
Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Jan 24, 2004 16:39:40 GMT -5
makd, dang it girl...you put a ton of work into this! gonna make my job even worse next week.
TONS of thought here.... and first thing I want to say is to agree with soemthing you mention at the very end - David Boreanaz did a WONDERFUL job as directior this week - I'm very proud for him. I think his 'ho hum, have fun, go home' attitude he 'talks' must be a sham. A yamsham!
In a way I hate that we have discussed the eps to death on the board before the reviews are out here, cause I feel like everything I could say to you in agreement or even disagreement - we've covered it!
Except this - you mentioned that the way Fred looked so beautiful in Angel's 'out to pasture' dream showed how he sees her - and 'click!' it hadnt' occurred to me - but that goes along with the 'treasures' she found too, doesn't it? Wouldn't it be JUST like Joss ...to set up the whole Knox vs. Wes. thing...and then let Angel find that there really is no place like home...and his dream girl is really from KansasTexas?
I think the communication lack between Spike and Angel MUST be corrected soon - and I speculate that this episode really set that up. Spike only has to say the word 'Doyle' once...and you know he will.
Didn't do your review justice Mary, but it was great!
|
|
|
Post by makd on Jan 24, 2004 17:44:46 GMT -5
makd, dang it girl...you put a ton of work into this! gonna make my job even worse next week. Thanks, Patti, but it's not like you're not up to it! I am hyped at reading your interpretation of next week's show. TONS of thought here.... and first thing I want to say is to agree with soemthing you mention at the very end - David Boreanaz did a WONDERFUL job as directior this week - I'm very proud for him. I think his 'ho hum, have fun, go home' attitude he 'talks' must be a sham. A yamsham! I have a suspicion The Big Man handles stress a lot differently than most, i.e, he takes it in stride.
And, the choices he made as director? wonderful. All the low shots, which only emphasized that Angel is feeling "beneath"; playing up the height differences between Gunn and Wes vs. Spike, yet there's Spike in a male dominance pose, out"manning" the guys. Great set-up. Buffy and Spike and Angel in the same bed, with Angel out of the action? very nice shot. Spike turning his back to the couple who are trying to thank him? again, good choice. 'Course, I don't know who made those creative decisions - David, James, Brent, or even if they are by consensus. Doesn't matter; as director, "he's the man", and he did a fine job with an intricate plot. I only hope he has the time and the energy to do more directing, because he's clearly got a gift for it.
Who knows? Maybe in the next few years we'll be looking at a feature film directed by DB. Only to be wished for, only to be wished for. In a way I hate that we have discussed the eps to death on the board before the reviews are out here, cause I feel like everything I could say to you in agreement or even disagreement - we've covered it! I agree, but it's really impossible to have a review done by 10:00 p.m. And, as soon as the episode is over, we all want to share. Except this - you mentioned that the way Fred looked so beautiful in Angel's 'out to pasture' dream showed how he sees her - and 'click!' it hadnt' occurred to me - but that goes along with the 'treasures' she found too, doesn't it? Wouldn't it be JUST like Joss ...to set up the whole Knox vs. Wes. thing...and then let Angel find that there really is no place like home...and his dream girl is really from KansasTexas? Oh, Patti, ITA. The depth of what Angel feels for Fred has yet to be expressed. In his dreams, she's clean, fresh, feminine, smart, adores him, and there's never a hesitation in her mind as to what's right/wrong. Smart chicks aren't hot just for Xander. All the guys in the Jossverse are attracted to smart chicks. Even if the gal is gay. [Hello? Willow.]
Plus, in terms of coloring, height, and build, she's reminiscent of Drusilla - prior to Angelus' corruption of her. That's important, I think, because IMO one of the things that attracted Angel to Buffy was that she looked a lot like Darla, but was "good", vs. "evil".
Angel is a pretty predictable guy when it comes to the ladies, it seems. Blonde, pretty, petite, heart-shaped face, fair eyes. This is the Darla-Buffy-Tina-Kate-Nina chain. (Dare I use that word?) The alternate is the tall brunette mysterious, dark eyed. This is the Drusilla-Jheira-Rebecca Lowell chain. Using that theory, then Fred could easily fit. Angel seems to have a harder time with the "dark beauties"; maybe because he's more concerned (because of his history with Dru) about corruption of them.
(ahem. cough. Channeling Giles, cleaning my glasses,) Now let's turn our attention to red-heads. Angel doesn't seem particularly attracted to red-heads, for example, whereas we know that Spike was quite attracted to Willlow for awhile.
And, knowing how JW loves to surprise the fans, it wouldn't surprise me if Angel's next "true love" will be Fred. No demon/demi-god problem there. No bitchiness. Just a sweet girl that he could love. 'Course, he's still got that pesky curse, but maybe Fred and Willow could get together and re-shape the conditions of Angel's ensoulment. The Big Man really does need to get la....well, you know.
We could start a pool, with the winner of the speculation pool winning a cup of virtual coffee and a bronze nameplate on their comfy chair in the Thrall Room. I think the communication lack between Spike and Angel MUST be corrected soon - and I speculate that this episode really set that up. Spike only has to say the word 'Doyle' once...and you know he will. ITADidn't do your review justice Mary, but it was great! Thanks, Patti; and thanks for giving me the opportunity to chat more about the episode.
|
|
|
Post by thelittlestvampire on Jan 24, 2004 18:38:55 GMT -5
Hey Makd, great review!!!!!! I actually took notes. Of course that means I gonna reply a whole bunch. Your review made me think of several things: 1. Angel is a big fat wuss. Things aren't always good vs. evil, right vs wrong? Poor Angel! That's life baby, you would think that after 250 years Angel would have realized that life's a little more complex than that. His views of R vs W were on par with Buffy's when they dated and she was a friggin' teenager. 2. I love that you talked about Angel's true fears having NOTHING to do with the right vs. wrong issue, and everything to do with how others perceive him, his own lack of direction, and the threat to his Alpha male/leader status. 3.. Great succinct run down of Angel's fears as demonstrated in his dreams. 4. I saw the term "helping the helpless" in a whole new light. When Spike said it to Angel it is insulting. That made me wonder, how highly does a person think about someone they are deaming "helpless." 5. I think Spike is a better lover than Angel. In season 6, Spike tell Buffy, "I'm the best you ever had." Hmmm..... What was I saying? Oh yeah- Buffy does not correct him. In the world of vampires, I don't imagine they bother closing the door and turning out the light- so Angel probably has some first hand knowledge of Spike's moves. Spike has always had issues with not being as Evil as Angelus, but we never got the feeling he felt threatened in the sack. 6. Family ties.... I know that by the end of the season (not ina spoilery way, don't worry!) Angel and Spike will become closer. I wonder if they will form an alliance (perhaps with Harmony, an adopted vamp) and have a bit of distance from the humans of the FG. Could be a fun twist. 7. I could totally see a Fred thing. 8. Alright, I'm lame but what was the string of pearls about? My own thought- Wes is seeming more evil nowadays. For some reason I could see him getting into a lilah-y sitch again, but this time with Harmony. It would be funny if he was more evil or corrupted than her. Harmony notes: As with Spike, Harmony is totally Beta. She referred to Spike treating her like a dog, but I think she is showing that there is something dogged about her persistence and her loyalty. Now that she has found her identity being loyal to Angel (who is good0 who knows what could happen. Sorry for the long-iness Go Makd! TLV
|
|
|
Post by beccaelizabeth on Jan 24, 2004 18:50:58 GMT -5
Fred is my hero, totally, and I like her, and she is pretty and sweet and all that, but- "You know what they say about payback? Well, I'm the bitch." It's easy not to see that side of her, but it does her a disservice. She has a darkness too, and it can be a strength. I cannot figure if she still remembers it, because the whole interpersonal vibe in the office is so off since the mindwipe. It made things so awkward between her and Gunn, and lately I havent seen that awkward. Which makes me wonder.
Angel, as far as I know, doesn't know about that particular murder. He sees Fred as all vulnerable and girly and sweet, doesnt know the sharp center. Which is why I think him dating her would be as disastrous as him getting back together with Buffy without getting to know her- he still only sees little miss sweetness high school Buffy and never liked to see her darkness either.
Which actually makes for a good reason for Angel/Fred to happen, because then you can explore that without needing Buffy around.
I prefer Wesley- he sees her. He didnt try to get her to go back to being sweet and vulnerable when she wanted to kick ass, he just helped her do it. And he didnt think to give her a gun in Lineage, but I think thats for the reason I yelled at the screen- you want a gun, bring a gun! Competent hero knows that, so I reckon Wes figured Fred was as armed as she wanted to be. Treating her like a slightly dark hero, like him, until he got yelled at by Angel the overprotective.
|
|
|
Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jan 24, 2004 19:45:33 GMT -5
Just one note: Alpha status is entirely dependant on who is in the room at the time, and where the room is; Spike is "Beta" only when with Angel, and on Angel's turf- at least as the dominance heirarchy exists on AtS. If his status was subordinate to Wes, Gunn, or " Doyle" those scenes would have played out entirely differently.
Thanks for the great insights, makd. I'm going to have to reread your review, and Nan's, and rewatch SP with them in mind.
Julia, hey, it's that or watch Bullriding and America's Most Wanted
|
|
|
Post by Linda on Jan 24, 2004 20:48:22 GMT -5
Fred is my hero, totally, and I like her, and she is pretty and sweet and all that, but- "You know what they say about payback? Well, I'm the bitch." It's easy not to see that side of her, but it does her a disservice. She has a darkness too, and it can be a strength. <snip> Angel, as far as I know, doesn't know about that particular murder. He sees Fred as all vulnerable and girly and sweet, doesnt know the sharp center. Which is why I think him dating her would be as disastrous as him getting back together with Buffy without getting to know her- he still only sees little miss sweetness high school Buffy and never liked to see her darkness either. Which actually makes for a good reason for Angel/Fred to happen, because then you can explore that without needing Buffy around. Oooh! Excellent pitch for Frangel -- not that they were meant for each other, but that it will be fun/painful to watch. We all know how much JW likes that. However, I'm not totally sure that Angel doesn't know what happened. He demonstrated in Soulless that his hearing was good enough to catch a lot of what went on throughout the hotel. Unless, that was all just insight and mind-fulking. Linda, who now has to find her recordings of AtS Season 4 stuff, if they still exist
|
|
|
Post by Linda on Jan 24, 2004 21:19:52 GMT -5
Wow.
Thank you, Makd, for the wonderfully detailed analysis. I loved the way you bring up so much of what went on before.
I get the impression that the only place where I might slightly disagree with you (and this is only a matter of degree, I think), is how much Spike is being taken in bye erstatz!Doyle. Yes, Spike distrusts him. He also distrusts Crockett & Tubbs, but he is still willing to have a drink with them. Something he WILL NOT do with fake!Doyle.
Yes, Lindsey is trying to play Spike, but I really think that Spike is waiting to see if Lindsey will tip his hand. I think that the W&H report of a vampire vigilante who asks his rescuees to come listen to some Sex Pistols and drink some hooch is a Lindsey fake, to get around Eve's little rune-stone distraction. I mentioned this in Nan's review thread, so forgive me for the repeat, but the report doesn't seem to be the Spike I saw in the episode -- tired, lost & UNsociable. If the report is fake, there is less evidence that Spike is actually buying into the hero thing.
I really wish that Lindsey was a true Doyle. Doyle's whole point in helping Angel in City of was to get him to become connected to humanity. This is exactly what Spike needs, too. Spike's overtures to Angel and the Fang Gang were rejected for the most part (except for Fred & Harm). I actually think they would have accepted him if it weren't for the creeping corruption of W&H.
Still, Lindsey's decision to name himself Doyle must be part of a game plan where Angel & Spike will eventually compare notes. As to how he intends them to react, well, that is up in the air. However, just about any communication between the two of them would be good, in my opinion. Hopefully, there won't be too many distracting lies between them when that finally happens.
Linda, who is enjoying this episode and the analyses a whole lot.
|
|
|
Post by makd on Jan 24, 2004 21:21:27 GMT -5
Hey Makd, great review!!!!!! I actually took notes. Of course that means I gonna reply a whole bunch. Your review made me think of several things: 1. Angel is a big fat wuss. Things aren't always good vs. evil, right vs wrong? Poor Angel! That's life baby, you would think that after 250 years Angel would have realized that life's a little more complex than that. His views of R vs W were on par with Buffy's when they dated and she was a friggin' teenager. OKay, Gotta say this: Angel is NOT a big fat wuss! I like The Big Man, okay? One of the things that I like about Angel is one of the things Spike likes about Buffy: Angel tries.
Next, on Angel: In the last 6 months, he's lost the second great love of his life, he's lost his son, he can't talk about either loss because he's sold himself and his friends up the creek to ensure his son's better life. On top of this, he's got a new job, moved to a new apartment, and found himself face-to-face with the one member of his family who's left, but whom he hates and fears. The one thing he felt he had for his Plan For the Future: Buffy's love and the Shanshu. Well, hell, he's beginning to think that he doesn't even have that.
Ever seen a Stress Scale? It got a list of stress factors, each with a different value. You add up all the factors you've experienced in the last year, and it multiplies, exponentially, the likelihood you'll be seriously sick or depressed. If the maximum score you can achieve is 15, Angel's hovering at around 52.
He's lost, alone, depressed, alienated, confused, a deeply unhappy man. His friends - Fred, Wes, Lorne, and Gunn, don't see this yet. Spike does - which is why Spike laughed off Angel's comment last week to tell Buffy, "You're a moron." (Thanks to Gail for this insight.)
He's a hands-on man stuck at a desk 16 hours/day. He's tired of the paperwork; tired of the corporate BS; tired of his subordinates pulling and tugging for favors; tired of decisions that, more are more, are murky and gray and so. not. clear-cut. I know how he feels. I just left 7 years of admin/mgmt to return to research and teaching, and each day that I don't have to make those "life and death" decisions impacting on others' lives is an extra day in mine. So, I have Angel's back on this. All the way.
So, sorry to disagree; I don't think Angel's stupid. I don't confuse the hair with the man. Angel is carrying the weight of the world. I cut him a whole big bottle of slack, and send him hugs and a bottle of fine Irish Whiskey, single malt, a CD of his favorite Bach, and a good book of philosophy, perhaps The Four Agreements. 2. I love that you talked about Angel's true fears having NOTHING to do with the right vs. wrong issue, and everything to do with how others perceive him, his own lack of direction, and the threat to his Alpha male/leader status. ITA. One of Angel's most vulnerable traits is his need for status and his desire to be respected and looked up to. It comes, I think, from Liam's inability to please his father and to have his father respect him. "All that we are informs us."
Angel wants to be loved and respected. Who doesn't? And he has profound fears of being laughed at. That's one of the things that pisses him about Spike. And Spike knows this.
Angel thinks that Spike uses every piece of ridicule he can against Angel, and it kills him. What Angel doesn't know is that Spike, underneath it all, hungers for love from Angel so much that he will do anything - even ridicule - to get his attention. We see that all the time with children, who will do anything to get attention from an older sibling/parent, even terrible things - just so they get the attention they crave. Continued on the next post, for length.Go Makd! only if we can go together! You and me, On the Road to ...Wherever... Hope and Crosby. Thelma and Louise. Wonder Woman and Lara Croft. Roxy and Velma. You get the picture. ;D TLV
|
|