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Post by makd on Jan 24, 2004 21:22:29 GMT -5
Hey Makd, great review!!!!!! Continued from the previous posting. 3.. Great succinct run down of Angel's fears as demonstrated in his dreams. Thank you.4. I saw the term "helping the helpless" in a whole new light. When Spike said it to Angel it is insulting. That made me wonder, how highly does a person think about someone they are deaming "helpless." Hmm. Never thought of it that way; you may be right. Spike may well be seeing Angel as helpless (pathetic/lost) in his fight to stay "clean" at W&H. 5. I think Spike is a better lover than Angel. In season 6, Spike tell Buffy, "I'm the best you ever had." Hmmm..... What was I saying? Oh yeah- Buffy does not correct him. In the world of vampires, I don't imagine they bother closing the door and turning out the light- so Angel probably has some first hand knowledge of Spike's moves. Spike has always had issues with not being as Evil as Angelus, but we never got the feeling he felt threatened in the sack. Bingo..kudasai! Absolutely! and Angel knows that! After all, Angel hasn't been involved in "doubles" on a regular basis since he was cursed. He's been strictly a "hands-on" man, with just a few exceptions (Buffy, Darla, and during his Angelus time in SunnyD with Dru. ) Spike has been involved in "doubles" since he was turned, and his soul isn't encumbered. Angel knows, too, from his time as Angelus, that William was an attentive partner for Dru, relentless in achieving any goal he set himself. So, yeah, that old insecurity about "going the distance" is key.
One of Angels' deep inferiority issues concerns the fact that he can't ever, as long as he's a vampire, have a real relationship with a woman. What can he give her? children? no. Orgasms? He can't do "the happy". One moment of pure happiness and he's all "grr arghh". So, yeah, he's deeply jealous of Spike on this one. 6. Family ties.... I know that by the end of the season (not ina spoilery way, don't worry!) Angel and Spike will become closer. I wonder if they will form an alliance (perhaps with Harmony, an adopted vamp) and have a bit of distance from the humans of the FG. Could be a fun twist. You know, while I was treadmilling today, I rewatched the first 1/2 hour of Soul Purpose (and damn my tape; it wouldn't hold 2 hours of TV, just 1-1/2 hours. Grrrooowlll. ) Anyway, something new came to me about Harmony, Angel, and Spike. I was watching her Dorothy Lamour-ness and thinking how, Dorothy Lamour always accompanied Hope and Crosby on their journeys. Well, then I remembered Spike talking about how he saw himself and Angel as Hope and Crosby, then started to think about how if THEY were Hope and Crosby, and Harmony was Dorothy Lamour, then, whereever they went, she would go, too. So....maybe they will start mentoring her in decision-making. Remember she said, it's so hard to be good without a soul. Whereever our boys go, I think she will go, too. That's my prediction, and I'm sticking to it. 7. I could totally see a Fred thing. Oh yeah. He's an 18th century guy unliving in the 21st. He idealizes women. He wants a woman who's clean (chaste and pure), who's got ideals, who's strong, who's smart. Fred is definitely a possibility. And, remember how angry he was with Wes in Lineage? And how concerned he was that Fred was falling under Spike's charms? I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't more Wes&Angel conflict, and this would only exacerbate it.
I think this is a 'ship to watch. ('Course, I still think there will be Nina/Angel action; she looks too much like Buffy-Darla-Kate for Angel to not be interested. ) Have a seat in that restaurant on the pier, baby, cause I think this might be a 'ship by the end of the season. 8. Alright, I'm lame but what was the string of pearls about? I will PM you on this, since it could be interpreted as gross. My own thought- Wes is seeming more evil nowadays. For some reason I could see him getting into a lilah-y sitch again, but this time with Harmony. It would be funny if he was more evil or corrupted than her. Something Is certainly going on with Wes. Have you noticed that, everytime someone interrupts him in his office, he covers up what he's working on? Something is very up with Wes. He suspects, I think, the mindwipe. Remember in JR, Angel slipped about how The Father Will Kill the Son? Wes is not all white;Wes is gray. Oh, and in SP it was WES who wanted to zap the warlock's group with the microwave. It was WES who was staking Angel ('course, that's a slash thing too, but let's not go there.) It was WES who told Angel that blood had been paid for him. So, oh yes, something's going on with Wes.
I'd love to know what happened when he was in England. Ever since he's been back, he's different. He has a new look, have you noticed? He's not that sexy-looking, stubbly, Wes that he was before he shot his cyborg-dad. Did he meet with the New Watcher's Council? Has he been in contact with Giles? I think so.
Two other scenarios: Giles knows Spike is back, but has decided to keep that information from Buffy. Or: Wes told Buffy that Spike is back, and has decided to stay where she is and move on with her life.
As to a Harmony/Wes pairing? Sorry, a world of no to that 'ship. I can't see Wes EVER being interested in Harmony. He's known her awhile, and a gallon of no. He'd sooner live in a world without shrimp. (really channeling Anya and Buffy here.)
Harmony notes: As with Spike, Harmony is totally Beta. She referred to Spike treating her like a dog, but I think she is showing that there is something dogged about her persistence and her loyalty. Now that she has found her identity being loyal to Angel (who is good0 who knows what could happen. Harmony is going to be Angel's loyal "little girl". Wait and see; I really believe this. She likes Angel. She's already trying to protect him [and herself'- not sexually, but in terms of corporate politics] from Wesley. If she didn't have her demon to distract her, she'd be a lot more protective of him. But, hang in there. I think she's going wherever Angel and Spike go, and will eventually be another "back" for Angel. Sorry for the long-iness not at all long-iness. Love talking about my favorite show. Duh. Or I wouldn't be here instead of doing something
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Post by makd on Jan 24, 2004 21:38:33 GMT -5
Fred is my hero, totally, and I like her, and she is pretty and sweet and all that, but- "You know what they say about payback? Well, I'm the bitch." It's easy not to see that side of her, but it does her a disservice. She has a darkness too, and it can be a strength. I cannot figure if she still remembers it, because the whole interpersonal vibe in the office is so off since the mindwipe. It made things so awkward between her and Gunn, and lately I havent seen that awkward. Which makes me wonder. Hi, BE. I think we ALL have a dark side. We never know what each of us is capable of doing until we are put into a situation that requires us to act/not act. Question is: HOW dark is our dark side?
And, in Harm's Way, Fred discounted a relationship with Gunn. I think it's just...over, and they've remained friends. It happens. Sometimes we can stay friends with old lovers; sometimes can't. Depend on who WE are, who THEY are, and what happened to break it up. Angel, as far as I know, doesn't know about that particular murder. He sees Fred as all vulnerable and girly and sweet, doesnt know the sharp center. Which is why I think him dating her would be as disastrous as him getting back together with Buffy without getting to know her- he still only sees little miss sweetness high school Buffy and never liked to see her darkness either. ITA; I don't think he knows about the murder. I would have to see that episode; it's one I missed. I don't think, though, that Fred has the depth of darkness that Buffy has. I think, compared to Buffy, Fred is sweetness personified. Buffy can be a bitch, (Remember Dead Things? Or the way she treated Spike when she woke up in Wrecked?) and even Spike has called her that. He's got nothing but admiration for Fred.
And, Angel has a fault with Buffy; he has great difficulty seeing her as other than when he was in love with her. And I so don't want to go there, because I find it upsetting that Angel, who's really ~25-30 (when he turned) was dating and had sex with a 17 year old girl. In my family, we call that statutory rape. Fact is, neither Buffy nor Angel really know each other. They've been apart too long. It's so easy to idealize our old loves. I mean, I'm sure the guy I was in love with before MOPS is nowhere near what he was like in 1967, when we were young and in love. But, for me, he'll always be the way he was then. I'm sure it's the same for Angel and Buffy. They've each idealized the other, for good or no. Which actually makes for a good reason for Angel/Fred to happen, because then you can explore that without needing Buffy around. I prefer Wesley- he sees her. He didnt try to get her to go back to being sweet and vulnerable when she wanted to kick ass, he just helped her do it. And he didnt think to give her a gun in Lineage, but I think thats for the reason I yelled at the screen- you want a gun, bring a gun! Competent hero knows that, so I reckon Wes figured Fred was as armed as she wanted to be. Treating her like a slightly dark hero, like him, until he got yelled at by Angel the overprotective. I like a Fred/Wesley pairing, too. But, I know the clever mind of Joss Whedon might not give what we want but what he thinks will be better for storytelling. And that's his right; he's the storyteller; they are his characters.
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Post by makd on Jan 24, 2004 21:40:12 GMT -5
Just one note: Alpha status is entirely dependant on who is in the room at the time, and where the room is; Spike is "Beta" only when with Angel, and on Angel's turf- at least as the dominance heirarchy exists on AtS. If his status was subordinate to Wes, Gunn, or " Doyle" those scenes would have played out entirely differently. Good point! and thus is Sprawl!Spike explained. Thanks for the great insights, makd. I'm going to have to reread your review, and Nan's, and rewatch SP with them in mind. Julia, hey, it's that or watch Bullriding and America's Most Wanted I vote for the America's most wanted bulls. ;D
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Post by makd on Jan 24, 2004 21:42:00 GMT -5
Oooh! Excellent pitch for Frangel -- not that they were meant for each other, but that it will be fun/painful to watch. We all know how much JW likes that. However, I'm not totally sure that Angel doesn't know what happened. He demonstrated in Soulless that his hearing was good enough to catch a lot of what went on throughout the hotel. Unless, that was all just insight and mind-fulking. Gotta see that episode! I just hate Thursday nights, when I have later office hours and miss Angel @ 5. And, I'm always thinking that Spike and Angel know way more than we think because of their vampire senses. Linda, who now has to find her recordings of AtS Season 4 stuff, if they still exist
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jan 24, 2004 21:50:43 GMT -5
Wow. Thank you, Makd, for the wonderfully detailed analysis. I loved the way you bring up so much of what went on before. I get the impression that the only place where I might slightly disagree with you (and this is only a matter of degree, I think), is how much Spike is being taken in bye erstatz!Doyle. Yes, Spike distrusts him. He also distrusts Crockett & Tubbs, but he is still willing to have a drink with them. Something he WILL NOT do with fake!Doyle. Yes, Lindsey is trying to play Spike, but I really think that Spike is waiting to see if Lindsey will tip his hand. I think that the W&H report of a vampire vigilante who asks his rescuees to come listen to some Sex Pistols and drink some hooch is a Lindsey fake, to get around Eve's little rune-stone distraction. I mentioned this in Nan's review thread, so forgive me for the repeat, but the report doesn't seem to be the Spike I saw in the episode -- tired, lost & UNsociable. If the report is fake, there is less evidence that Spike is actually buying into the hero thing. I really wish that Lindsey was a true Doyle. Doyle's whole point in helping Angel in City of was to get him to become connected to humanity. This is exactly what Spike needs, too. Spike's overtures to Angel and the Fang Gang were rejected for the most part (except for Fred & Harm). I actually think they would have accepted him if it weren't for the creeping corruption of W&H. Still, Lindsey's decision to name himself Doyle must be part of a game plan where Angel & Spike will eventually compare notes. As to how he intends them to react, well, that is up in the air. However, just about any communication between the two of them would be good, in my opinion. Hopefully, there won't be too many distracting lies between them when that finally happens. Linda, who is enjoying this episode and the analyses a whole lot. (my emphasis) This is what I mean by Spike playing along. I don't think he's at all trustful of " Doyle" and that he's watching like a hawk every minute they're together, gathering hints as to what's up. As for Lindsey using the name " Doyle" as a way of setting up something between Angel and Spike- I think he is, but I think his desired outcome is going to be shot down because he underestimates both of the soul boys- their intelligence, their commitment to the good, and their willingness to work together. Julia, waiting for next week!
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Post by makd on Jan 24, 2004 21:52:36 GMT -5
Wow. Thank you, Makd, for the wonderfully detailed analysis. I loved the way you bring up so much of what went on before. You're welcome. I'm a believer in Santayana's theory, so the backstory is always important to me. I get the impression that the only place where I might slightly disagree with you (and this is only a matter of degree, I think), is how much Spike is being taken in bye erstatz!Doyle. Yes, Spike distrusts him. He also distrusts Crockett & Tubbs, but he is still willing to have a drink with them. Something he WILL NOT do with fake!Doyle. Gee, that's a good point! He definitely doesn't like Ersatz!Doyle. You can almost smell the dislike and distrust. And, yes, he likes Gunn; I don't know about Wes. I like your observation about the hospitality. Good observation!Yes, Lindsey is trying to play Spike, but I really think that Spike is waiting to see if Lindsey will tip his hand. I think that the W&H report of a vampire vigilante who asks his rescuees to come listen to some Sex Pistols and drink some hooch is a Lindsey fake, to get around Eve's little rune-stone distraction. I mentioned this in Nan's review thread, so forgive me for the repeat, but the report doesn't seem to be the Spike I saw in the episode -- tired, lost & UNsociable. If the report is fake, there is less evidence that Spike is actually buying into the hero thing. Linda, you are SMOKIN'. Yes. Yes. Yes. I was laughing when I first saw that, but, now that you mention it, that doesn't sound like Spike. And, when did we ever hear Spike use the word, "hootch"? That's an Americanism. Maybe, just as Lindsey is double-crossing Eve, she is double-crossing him? But this is certainly something to consider. I really wish that Lindsey was a true Doyle. Doyle's whole point in helping Angel in City of was to get him to become connected to humanity. This is exactly what Spike needs, too. Spike's overtures to Angel and the Fang Gang were rejected for the most part (except for Fred & Harm). I actually think they would have accepted him if it weren't for the creeping corruption of W&H. Puleeze. I miss Doyle so much it hurts. What a fine performance. Layered. Warm. Sweet. Ingratiating. The total opposite of Spike, and just as endearing, albeit in a different way. "Doyle in the a.m. and Spike in the p.m." (I know I'm in the minority here, 'cause, not Spike 24/7/365, but 's okay, I still like Spike. a lot. Still, Lindsey's decision to name himself Doyle must be part of a game plan where Angel & Spike will eventually compare notes. As to how he intends them to react, well, that is up in the air. However, just about any communication between the two of them would be good, in my opinion. Hopefully, there won't be too many distracting lies between them when that finally happens. ITALinda, who is enjoying this episode and the analyses a whole lot. thanks. I think this is most complex episode since Beneath You and/or Restless.
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Post by makd on Jan 24, 2004 22:05:22 GMT -5
(my emphasis) This is what I mean by Spike playing along. I don't think he's at all trustful of " Doyle" and that he's watching like a hawk every minute they're together, gathering hints as to what's up. As for Lindsey using the name " Doyle" as a way of setting up something between Angel and Spike- I think he is, but I think his desired outcome is going to be shot down because he underestimates both of the soul boys- their intelligence, their commitment to the good, and their willingness to work together. Julia, waiting for next week! Yes! definitely. You know, I'm so glad Joss Whedon decided to do MOTW. I was so frustrated by continuing story lines.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jan 24, 2004 22:34:37 GMT -5
And, Angel has a fault with Buffy; he has great difficulty seeing her as other than when he was in love with her. And I so don't want to go there, because I find it upsetting that Angel, who's really ~25-30 (when he turned) was dating and had sex with a 17 year old girl. In my family, we call that statutory rape. I think his age at time of turning is pretty irrelevant. He is a couple hundred years old. Even if he looked 12 he would be a couple hundred years old. I'm British so my idea of age of consent is 16, therefore I wouldnt call it statutory rape. The statutes depend on the geography. But I would call it icky because 17 year olds are so not finished yet. The older I get the older the youngest person I'd date gets (duh) because my definitions keep changing and they have to be older to be as grown up as I am. Also because I know how much I've changed in the last -urgh, ten years- so I figure they're still changing. How to know who you sleep with is who you wake up with? Still changing. Thing of it is Angel isn't all done yet, not extremely mature guy. Older but still with a ton of teenage issues and a simplistic world view Buffy was growing out of even when he knew her. So he was kinda dating at his level.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jan 24, 2004 22:47:39 GMT -5
I think his age at time of turning is pretty irrelevant. He is a couple hundred years old. Even if he looked 12 he would be a couple hundred years old. I'm British so my idea of age of consent is 16, therefore I wouldnt call it statutory rape. The statutes depend on the geography. But I would call it icky because 17 year olds are so not finished yet. The older I get the older the youngest person I'd date gets (duh) because my definitions keep changing and they have to be older to be as grown up as I am. Also because I know how much I've changed in the last -urgh, ten years- so I figure they're still changing. How to know who you sleep with is who you wake up with? Still changing. Thing of it is Angel isn't all done yet, not extremely mature guy. Older but still with a ton of teenage issues and a simplistic world view Buffy was growing out of even when he knew her. So he was kinda dating at his level. Liam was a very immature man; as the discussion of Harmony last week explored pretty thoroughly, vampires do not, under "normal" situations, mature. Buffy was over the State of California age of consent (which is why the scripts made a big issue of it being her 17th birthday) but she has Daddy issues and her vunerability that way is what squicks me out, and always has. Together though it was almost the situation which my mom used to describe as "pity to spoil two houses"- they were drawn to each other because they were both pretty screwed up entities. Julia, which pretty much details my lack of enthusiasm for the Bangel ship
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Post by makd on Jan 25, 2004 4:11:13 GMT -5
I think his age at time of turning is pretty irrelevant. He is a couple hundred years old. Even if he looked 12 he would be a couple hundred years old. This is so not a topic I wanted to discuss, but, it's here, so I am here, too. Honestly, I can't even get into THIS. I mean, with that thought, WTH can he date? only another vampire, so...I tend to think it should revolve around age at turning..... And, hey, TV show, right?I'm British so my idea of age of consent is 16, therefore I wouldnt call it statutory rape. The statutes depend on the geography. ITA. Geography, history, culture, society. All are relative. Even as I wrote that (original post), I was thinking, quite sociologically, that in ANGEL's time of life, there was nothing wrong with the age difference.
However, I was talking about MY experience, and that would be that a 17 year old American female is too young to date a guy who is over 21. I know, as a sociologist who teaches this stuff, for example, that marriages contracted when 1/other are less than 21 are much more likely to end in divorce than those marriages where BOTH are over 21. There is just so much growing between 17-21. And, in this culture, a 17year old is still in school.
Just "out of the culture". So, for me, not pleasant that Angel would be dating a female with such a disparity. I asked myself, when my daughter was 17, would she have been permitted to date a guy over 21? Answer: NO. In fact, her first boyfriend was 20 to her 18. They started to date the day she graduated from HS. In other words, they were both college students; she a freshman, he a junior. He was the brother of one of her best friends. They dated for 18 months. When they broke up, it was HER decision. Reasons? pretty much that she had changed so much during that time - college, etc.
So, yeah, I know what you are saying, but I am taking the "cultural norm" route; this is my culture and I am a product of it.But I would call it icky because 17 year olds are so not finished yet. The older I get the older the youngest person I'd date gets (duh) because my definitions keep changing and they have to be older to be as grown up as I am. Also because I know how much I've changed in the last -urgh, ten years- so I figure they're still changing. How to know who you sleep with is who you wake up with? Still changing. Thing of it is Angel isn't all done yet, not extremely mature guy. Older but still with a ton of teenage issues and a simplistic world view Buffy was growing out of even when he knew her. So he was kinda dating at his level. I disagree. He may seem immature, but he was still too old for her. In his own way, Angel was just as obsessed with Buffy as Spike, it just wasn't presented as such so clearly. I mean, really: he sees her from a car, follows her to SunnyD, drops by to talk and flirt,....then, when he "goes Angelus", instead of vamping and killing, he becomes focused on killing her and her family and friends. He stalks and kills.
And guess what? in the interest of a fan base he's forgiven. Ah well, it was Angelus. He's Angel now. Not buying that. And I love the guy!! I want him to Shanshu, I see him as heroic; I truly like him. But I don't want him near Buffy!!! And, I love the guy on his own show, 2 hours and an alternate dimension away from Buffy. Like Season 1-2 Cordy, I want to see them as far away from each other as possible. They are not mixy. Not really a healthy relationship.
The fact that he was mature enough to realize that she couldn't really have a normal life with him indicates that he WAS too old for her. Still, the decision to break-up was HIS. He leaves her. And she is devastated.
The issue of the B/A age difference and it's ramification on Buffy's life is an issue that's been discussed on this board (and others) ad nauseum; Buffy's ability to relate to and communicate with the men she loves/is in a relationship with is poor, and was negatively influenced by her teen-aged relationship with Angel. That's a fair consensus of the opinion.
Buffy did not act maturely in her relationship with Angel: she sneaked behind her mother's back, behind Giles' back, etc. She did not have the emotional maturity to be in a relationship of that depth with a guy who was older than her peers. And Angel knew it. As the adult in the situation, he had the responsibility to hold back. He didn't. He totally, literally, metaphorically, fulked up.
Incidentally, the sneaking around with guys/lying to her mother/Giles/others about what she was doing was a hallmark of Buffy's life until the relationship with Spike was outed.
Much as we all love Buffy, Buffy is a flawed character. Maybe that's why she's so real to us; so are we flawed, too.
And maybe it's because I am a mother that I say this, again: Buffy was way to young to be dating Angel. So much of what characterized her subsequent negative relationships with men was a result of that relationship. So, I disagree with you.
Buffy/Angel - a great unrequited love; a classic unrequited love, characterized by UST. Also: a cautionary tale for teen-aged girls. And let us not forget the metaphor Joss Whedon wanted us to have: Sex with older boys and high school girls: not mixy.
Angel was originally meant to take off with Drusilla and be killed. What brought him back was the development of a huge fan base. In real life, the fan base doesn't bring back the guy.
In real life, they have sex, they date, they eventually realize (if she hasn't gotten pregnant) they have nothing in common. They drift away and break up. On TV however, they develop a huge fan base that adores unrequited, idealized love, and they love each other 4-eva.
In real life, after the break up, they each move on to new loves. On TV he has a hard time doing that, what with his pesky curse. She has a hard time, too, since, because the love is unrequited, no man can ever measure up to her dreams of what he is like. Really? it's classic doomed-to-failure love. Each needs to move on.
I mean, there is a small part of my heart that is Bangel; but the realization that they have grown apart stills that 'ship. I mean, this episode (SPO) made it clear that his image of B/A is an idealized one that is almost laughable. Here he is, CEO of a major law firm and he's worried about her senior prom? What is he, 12? If not, he's a perv. If that's truly his level of emotional maturity, then SHE was too old for HIM.
Should she move on to Spike? Well, the Spuffy part of my heart (It's really very small.) says, "yes".
However, I would be deliriously happy if Spike fell - thudded - for a sweet gal who loved him unconditionally, never beat him up, never used him, told him she loved him, and bragged about him to all her friends and family.
I would be equally happy if Buffy fell in love with (and it was reciprocal) a great guy who could bring her into the sunlight, treated her well, didn't drink or smoke, understood that she had a little bit of the demon in her more than 3 days a month, and loved her like crazy.
Cause, bottom line? Spike and Buffy were not mixy. Much as they were hot; much as he loved her. The last year there wasn't any sex between them, and they were just the best friends. And it's way late, and I've spent far too long at the fair.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jan 25, 2004 8:40:35 GMT -5
This is so not a topic I wanted to discuss, but, it's here, so I am here, too. Honestly, I can't even get into THIS. I mean, with that thought, WTH can he date? only another vampire, so...I tend to think it should revolve around age at turning..... (you know if you do the replying in bold like that it doesnt show up when I try and quote and I have to cut and paste) I don't think that physical age or time on this planet are relevant factors for a relationship. I reckon its all about emotional maturity. I mean once someone is all grown up then their peers are like everyone. My friends are a lot of different ages, so why not people I date? yeah, probably an old topic, but mho
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Post by Vlad on Jan 25, 2004 9:14:12 GMT -5
I think his age at time of turning is pretty irrelevant. He is a couple hundred years old. Even if he looked 12 he would be a couple hundred years old. I'm British so my idea of age of consent is 16, therefore I wouldnt call it statutory rape. The statutes depend on the geography. But I would call it icky because 17 year olds are so not finished yet. The older I get the older the youngest person I'd date gets (duh) because my definitions keep changing and they have to be older to be as grown up as I am. Also because I know how much I've changed in the last -urgh, ten years- so I figure they're still changing. How to know who you sleep with is who you wake up with? Still changing. Thing of it is Angel isn't all done yet, not extremely mature guy. Older but still with a ton of teenage issues and a simplistic world view Buffy was growing out of even when he knew her. So he was kinda dating at his level. Two points to bring up: 1.) In many states in the US the age of consent is lower than 18. Indiana for example is 16. I looked this all up a long time ago (and knew Indiana by growing up here) and as I remember about half of the US states are 18, wit the others mostly being 17 or 16. Tehre are a couple that are even lower, but I can't remember which. I tihnk its llike Virginia or Carolina or oneof hte southern coastals that it is either 14 or 15 (Eeeek!). Also, in most places statutory rape doesn't apply if the person is within a certain number of years of the younger person. Example: a guy at 19 with a girl of 17. So the fact that buffy is 17 is mostly a quibble point in my opinion. They jsut happened to be in California, not Indiana. Culturally, much as we like to make fun of other states, there isn't much difference between here andd Cali. 2.) I was informed but do not know the validity of the statement that the legal age for consent in California during the shooting or airing of the episode in question was actually 17 and that age was raised AFTER it had been shot or aired. Again, I do not know htis for a fact and that information was jsut seen, ironically enough, by me on another posting board yesterday. This goes back to the "quibble" detail for me, tho'. If the law was changed... and the fact that many other states seem to think that 17 instead of 18 is fine, then it's not something that I really care about. In Angel's day, a girl of 17 was regularly married ot a man that was much older than herself. By most standards, girls of today are more mature than their 18th century counterparts. Angel has never cared about "legalities." He is concerned about moral rights and wrongs. Sleeping with an adult woman that you love (albeit a young adult woman) is not wrong in his book nor is it in most. Vlad
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makd just checking in
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Post by makd just checking in on Jan 25, 2004 11:36:45 GMT -5
BE:thanks for the tip on the posting. I thought I was making responses easier, not harder, to read. I won't do that again. I appreciate the heads up!
As to the whole B/A age sitch. While I agree, head-wise, with what each of you say, as a parent.....
Sorry, I disagree. ....If my 17 year old daughter had a crush on a guy in his mid-twenties, no way would I have permitted the dating. Although, honestly, my daughter is a lot smarter than Buffy, and wouldn't have done it. Indeed, I recall her laughing, while in HS, at girls she knew who were dating college guys. She thought the college guys were only out for sex and the girls were stupid.
Now, my kid, who's 25, is no slouch in the dating dept. She's quite the flame for the moths. Imagine Angelina Jolie's face on Jennifer Lopez' body. Right. With a brain as sharp as Maggie Walsh's , a sense of humor that's a combination of Spike and Xander, and a tenderness for others that matches Tara's. She's quite the package, I must say. And, these comments are based on compliments her friends, and boy friends have told me, not with the "only my mom thinks so pride".
So, if SHE thinks Buffy is dumb about guys and relationships, and is close to Buffy's real age, I tend to think that I am correct that Buffy IS off in her decisions about guys.
Also, we don't love Buffy because she's smart; we don't love her because she makes great relationship decisions. She's not too smart (Even Willow says this); she makes DREADFUL relationship decisions. Doesn't matter; we still care deeply about her. Hell, a year later we are still caring about her!
we love her because, among other things, she tries. We love her for many of the same reasons Spike gave for loving her in Touched. We don't want anything from her; we just admire her bravery, her heroism, her willingness to believe and rely on her friends, her ability to love, give, and forgive. (That's why I feel, IMHO, that, at the end of Chosen, they are friends, not lovers.)
But then, love (or even a schoolgirl crush) can make you do the wacky. Even that great decision-maker, Woody Allen, speaking of his ewww-love, Soo Ying, has said, "the heart knows what it wants". It may know what it wants, but it's not necessarily good for you.
{} {} for each; let's agree to disagree, yeah?
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Post by guesttlv on Jan 25, 2004 16:47:22 GMT -5
Makd,
I wanted to clarify some of my thoughts on Angel.
First, I really see your point about Angel being under tremendous stress. I, too, know what it’s like to break the bank with the stress index. My way of dealing is different from Angel’s, so I think I’ve been overly harsh with him. I’m more of a Harmony type in times of stress and self searching- I turn to friends, paint toenails, try on different hats, sometimes make bad decisions, but I stay fluid until I land on me feet. As you point out, inaction in the face of tremendous stress is part of the Angel picture. I can’t fault Angel for being who he is. He processes internally.
That said, I do think he should be doing more to mitigate his stress, and process his grief. With responsibility, comes the responsibility to take care of oneself. Angel should take a vacation, see a therapist, spank his inner moppet, or do whatever he needs to start to move forward. I feel for him, but I’m sick of the moping.
On the moping- If Angel can’t handle the pressure right now, he should turn the reigns over to someone else for a little while and take some time off. He’s doing more harm than good staying in power because he’s not all there. (Of course he can’t because he doesn’t trust anyone anymore. More on this later.)
On right and wrong. Alright, here goes my personal philosophy…
Rescuing damsels in distress in alleys is a lot more black and white than running a multidimensional corporation. Running huge corporations, countries, corporations that run countries, etc. requires making “tough decisions.” And “tough decisions” often mean doing things that are wrong for the greater good. Leaders also have to live with the guilt of those decisions.
Angel is so plagued by the guilt of his past that he does not want to add any more sins to his burden. But if he wants to wield the power of being a big time player he has to accept the responsibilities and he’s going to have to get his hands dirty.
Another problem, Angel has divided his self-image into Evil Angelus and blameless Angel. I believe that Angel does have the ruthlessness necessary to run W and H, but that his ruthlessness is tied up in his Angelus side. Just as Spike had to accept the part of his that enjoyed violence to be a great fighter, Angel has to accept the enjoyment of power that is part of the Angel/Angelus picture.
This brings us to Wes. Wes has proven again and again (Pylea anyone?) that he is willing to make tough decisions and live with the consequences. He is a great strategist. Unfortunately, Angel is unwilling to use this to his advantage. Angel could use Wes and even learn from Wes, but Angel is unwilling to live with the consequences.
Now Gunn- Gun is a man of the people (Pylea again.) He was a man of the common man, now he is a man of the corporate machine and of inter-racial/inter-species politics. Gunn knows how to deal with demons and people and bring people together. Yet Angel doesn’t want to sully himself building relationships with “the wrong sort.” Angel is suspicious of all the legal, corporate, and cultural structures he is now subject to. Angel could use Gunn and learn from Gunn, but does not trust him either.
Random- On Helping the Helpless-
My husband rents these awful war/history/genocide movies all the time. The most recent was “Rabbit Proof Fence.”
These movies always make me think about how most of the time in history, people think they are doing the right thing. In fact, many atrocities have been done by people thinking they are helping people who can’t help themselves. “helping the helpless.”
I know we talk a lot about “trying,” and I think it’s great to try. But I think it’s also important to have respect for people and for their self-determination.
I know that brings up more questions than answers, but I want to bring this up because Angel is wielding tremendous power now, the kind of power that can do serious damage. He needs to realize that despite his best intentions (and maybe even because of them sometimes) people are going to get hurt and even die.
I think Spike’s treatment of the girl in the alley was, in a way, respectful of her independence. Maybe she won’t wander alone in dark alleys wearing bad shoes again. Remember, “give me a fish and I eat for a day…”
Anyway, I don’t think Angel is a big fat wuss, but I do think he is BEING a wuss. He is refusing to take responsibility for W and H, he isn’t letting anyone else take charge, he isn’t rethinking his goals in order to best use W and H for the greater good.
I think he’s a good man, and I think he could be a great leader. I just want him to start leading.
Sorry for the rant, TLV I’ve given up on trying to be good. Now I just want to figure out what “good” is.
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Post by guesttlv on Jan 25, 2004 16:50:32 GMT -5
One more thing....
I know Spike keeps saying W and H is changing the FG. It's probably true, but I also think Spike has a lot of faith in Angel. I think Spike would beleive in W and H if he thought Angel actually held the reigns (in his firm and manly grip.)
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