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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jan 25, 2004 16:58:39 GMT -5
Anyway, I don’t think Angel is a big fat wuss, but I do think he is BEING a wuss. He is refusing to take responsibility for W and H, he isn’t letting anyone else take charge, he isn’t rethinking his goals in order to best use W and H for the greater good. I think he’s a good man, and I think he could be a great leader. I just want him to start leading. I think I agree with every single thing you said here. Learn from Wes, learn from Gunn- or just integrate them into a properly functional team like they used to be. Angel's role in this, bringing the team together and pointing them in the right direction.
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Post by makd on Jan 25, 2004 17:36:34 GMT -5
Makd, I wanted to clarify some of my thoughts on Angel. First, I really see your point about Angel being under tremendous stress. I, too, know what it’s like to break the bank with the stress index. My way of dealing is different from Angel’s, so I think I’ve been overly harsh with him. I’m more of a Harmony type in times of stress and self searching- I turn to friends, paint toenails, try on different hats, sometimes make bad decisions, but I stay fluid until I land on me feet. As you point out, inaction in the face of tremendous stress is part of the Angel picture. I can’t fault Angel for being who he is. He processes internally. That said, I do think he should be doing more to mitigate his stress, and process his grief. With responsibility, comes the responsibility to take care of oneself. Angel should take a vacation, see a therapist, spank his inner moppet, or do whatever he needs to start to move forward. I feel for him, but I’m sick of the moping. On the moping- If Angel can’t handle the pressure right now, he should turn the reigns over to someone else for a little while and take some time off. He’s doing more harm than good staying in power because he’s not all there. (Of course he can’t because he doesn’t trust anyone anymore. More on this later.) On right and wrong. Alright, here goes my personal philosophy… Rescuing damsels in distress in alleys is a lot more black and white than running a multidimensional corporation. Running huge corporations, countries, corporations that run countries, etc. requires making “tough decisions.” And “tough decisions” often mean doing things that are wrong for the greater good. Leaders also have to live with the guilt of those decisions. Angel is so plagued by the guilt of his past that he does not want to add any more sins to his burden. But if he wants to wield the power of being a big time player he has to accept the responsibilities and he’s going to have to get his hands dirty. Another problem, Angel has divided his self-image into Evil Angelus and blameless Angel. I believe that Angel does have the ruthlessness necessary to run W and H, but that his ruthlessness is tied up in his Angelus side. Just as Spike had to accept the part of his that enjoyed violence to be a great fighter, Angel has to accept the enjoyment of power that is part of the Angel/Angelus picture. This brings us to Wes. Wes has proven again and again (Pylea anyone?) that he is willing to make tough decisions and live with the consequences. He is a great strategist. Unfortunately, Angel is unwilling to use this to his advantage. Angel could use Wes and even learn from Wes, but Angel is unwilling to live with the consequences. Now Gunn- Gun is a man of the people (Pylea again.) He was a man of the common man, now he is a man of the corporate machine and of inter-racial/inter-species politics. Gunn knows how to deal with demons and people and bring people together. Yet Angel doesn’t want to sully himself building relationships with “the wrong sort.” Angel is suspicious of all the legal, corporate, and cultural structures he is now subject to. Angel could use Gunn and learn from Gunn, but does not trust him either. Random- On Helping the Helpless- My husband rents these awful war/history/genocide movies all the time. The most recent was “Rabbit Proof Fence.” These movies always make me think about how most of the time in history, people think they are doing the right thing. In fact, many atrocities have been done by people thinking they are helping people who can’t help themselves. “helping the helpless.” I know we talk a lot about “trying,” and I think it’s great to try. But I think it’s also important to have respect for people and for their self-determination. I know that brings up more questions than answers, but I want to bring this up because Angel is wielding tremendous power now, the kind of power that can do serious damage. He needs to realize that despite his best intentions (and maybe even because of them sometimes) people are going to get hurt and even die. I think Spike’s treatment of the girl in the alley was, in a way, respectful of her independence. Maybe she won’t wander alone in dark alleys wearing bad shoes again. Remember, “give me a fish and I eat for a day…” Anyway, I don’t think Angel is a big fat wuss, but I do think he is BEING a wuss. He is refusing to take responsibility for W and H, he isn’t letting anyone else take charge, he isn’t rethinking his goals in order to best use W and H for the greater good. I think he’s a good man, and I think he could be a great leader. I just want him to start leading. Sorry for the rant, TLV I’ve given up on trying to be good. Now I just want to figure out what “good” is. ITA. He shuns the gray because it reminds him that he does have Angelus submerged. At the same time, he needs to harness some of Angelus' force to make the decisions that need to be made to run W&H. He needs to understand that we CAN and SHOULD trot out the inner demon when we need to do so. Problem is, he doesn't know how to control the inner demon. Angel needs to act, but he's terrified of doing so. He hasn't successfully integrated the aspects of his personality (Angelus, Angel, AND Liam). When/if he can so he, he'll be unstoppable and will be a primary FORCE for good. Spike needs to share with Angel how to integrate the various personae, and Angel needs to share with Spike how to have purpose. Angel can't cede control of W&H; it's too tied in with his ego and with the whole mind-wipe he's been trying to maintain. Good insight! Thanks for sharing.
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Post by makd on Jan 25, 2004 17:39:35 GMT -5
One more thing.... I know Spike keeps saying W and H is changing the FG. It's probably true, but I also think Spike has a lot of faith in Angel. I think Spike would beleive in W and H if he thought Angel actually held the reigns (in his firm and manly grip.) Maybe; don't know. I'm more likely to think that if Angel offered Spike a job where Spike would work closely with Angel, he MIGHT take it.
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Post by thelittlestvampire on Jan 25, 2004 18:21:38 GMT -5
Problem is, he doesn't know how to control the inner demon. I forgot about that! A always imagine Angel keeps Angelus in check out of hatred rather than fear. You are right, though. Boy, we learned a lot in Pylea, didn't we?
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Post by makd on Jan 25, 2004 19:27:03 GMT -5
I forgot about that! A always imagine Angel keeps Angelus in check out of hatred rather than fear. You are right, though. Boy, we learned a lot in Pylea, didn't we? Yep. And throughout the series.
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Post by ellie on Jan 25, 2004 20:12:00 GMT -5
makd-
I was blown away by your analysis of Soul Purpose- sincerely- that review wold have made me watch the show even if I had never seen it b//4
I particularly like the idea of Spike and Angel being mirror images of one another- they complement and contort each ohter's true signifigance.
As to the whole Angel Buffy relationship- I swooned along with the rest of the Bangel audience at the romantic intensity of their attachment but one scne always makes me slightly uncomfortable-
when Buffy takes Angel upstairs -after pretending to her mother tht he has gone- and he sneaks behind her- it looks so undignified that it sucked the romance right out of the moment and that was due to his age.
It no longer looked like Romeo and Juliet- it just looked kind of creepy- a grown man following a 16 year old up to her bedroom unbeknownst to her mother- the fact that she needed to save his life was subsumed in the ick factor of him tiptoing and hiding in her frilly bedroom- I do feel that overall the show strongly suggested that the overwhelming passion had its negative effects- it did not pass judgement on the passion so much as just comment upon the repercussions.
Oh you wrote
"Angel was originally meant to take off with Drusilla and be killed. What brought him back was the development of a huge fan base. In real life, the fan base doesn't bring back the guy"
I had no idea Angel was supposed to be killed off- I thought it was Spike who was supposed to be Drusilla's boy toy and killed by Angel but that the overwhelming response to JM's charisma shortchanged that storyline?
ellie
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Post by LadyDi on Jan 25, 2004 20:30:55 GMT -5
makd - interesting review. Love the suggestions for musical accompaniment (sp?).
OTOH, I've so totally run out of patience with Angel. I really used to like him, and I was hoping to like him again. Instead, I find his behavior appalling. Not just his behavior towards Spike, either. As for stress, I feel it's way too easy to make excuses for Angel. You wanna talk about loss? Spike lost everything in making his big glorious sacrifice. The only way he could make the save was by letting go. He was ready to do that, and (supposedly) Angel was ready to change W&H. Angel knew taking over W&H wasn't gonna be like tiptoe-ing thru the tulips. Angel is allowing his insecurities to get the better of him and he's blaming Spike for his problems. Spike is not a problem, or a source of problems (beyond minor annoyance)! Eve may be evil, but she's right in saying that Angel needs to take a good long look at himself. Far as I'm concerned, Angel needs to get over himself in a big, fat hurry. He is not now, nor has he ever been, the only one working for good!
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Post by Sue on Jan 25, 2004 21:19:45 GMT -5
Makd-- Great review. Of course, doesn't hurt that my name is there. Gives me warm fuzzies.
I've copied small snippets and posted specific reactions in bold.
M: Harmony, looking better than ever, sharper than she’s ever been, correcting Gunn’s pronunciation
Sue: good catch. I just assumed I'd been mis-pronouncing it as well, silly me.
M: Hallucinations take us from our secure outer reality to the uncomfortable inner reality of our deepest fears. Lost in a surreal world, Angel finds himself betrayed, dissected, heckled, challenged, emptied, dissed, isolated, friendless, rejected, and irrelevant. A nobody, or as Spike said, “a big hunk of nobody cares.”
S: ouch
M: Angel’s hallucinations expose his deepest fears: that Wes will betray him and kill him
S: Wes staking him thru the heart seemed to possibly be a parallel to Wes stealing Connor from him--wouldn't that feel like a stake thru the heart to any parent?
M: Fred, looking lovelier than ever, (which tells us just how deeply Angel idealizes her.)
S: hadn't thought of that
M: We find him lounging in a sleazy strip club, drinking and fantasizing over a blonde stripper
S: This troubled me. Much the same way Spike sex with Harmony troubled me. Of course, I've got to get over expecting Spike to live up to human (especially human conservative Christian values regarding sex) values, even if he is souled. But, it's more than that. It troubled me because of the question Caraleigh posed earlier in the week: Do we treat Spike, or other characters, differently because of Spike-love. Most of us denied being biased. One person however essentially said, "Hell yes and proud of it!"
Anyway, I submit that most of us do indeed cut Spike a break on behavior we wouldn't tolerate in Angel and our (non)reaction to this scene speaks volumes. If Angel had left Buffy behind in Sunnydale (still in love with her and vice versa), gone off to L.A. and within weeks was hanging out drinking in strip bars we'd be all over him.
It has to do with expectations. Angel always has had extremely (maybe impossibly) high expectations of himself and we buy into that. Spike, however, has always been written as the "bad boy". We expect him to go on a drunken tear and leer at women and so we cut him a break.
Not entirely our (the viewers) fault--we are just buying into the characterizations as they are presented to us. Still, I really think if Angel had been in the strip bar we'd have been much harder on him. Just saying...
M: Well, the problem is, although Spike’s got the moves, Spike hasn’t got the same attitude toward the helpless as his blood-kin, Angel. And really, how important is attitude? Is attitude relevant? Or it is important to just “do the job”? What should his attitude be? More importantly: Is his heart in it? He’s not happy about where he’s finding himself. He’s disconnected, not really feeling life. We’ve never seen our Spike this way. Like Angel, he’s going through the motions. He needs a cause, a woman; a love….he’s just going through the motions. (And where have we heard this tune before?)
S: (must be because it's Sunday, but I am moved to quote Scripture: "Faith without works is dead." (somewhere in James, I believe). What we are asking here is: Are works without 'faith' as meaningful?
M: Then, Spike finds out that Angel doesn’t know Wes and Gunn are there and tells them he won’t act behind Angel’s back.
S: A stand up and cheer moment in my opinion. What would be even better would be for Wes and Gunn to confess the conversation--and Spike's reaction--to Angel.
M: Funny thing that, family loyalty. Let’s see: Angel hates Spike, and Spike hates Angel. Riiiight. Then, that must be why Angel didn’t want to smash the amulet ASAP, as per Wes’ suggestion. And why Spike didn’t take over Angel and all he has when he had the chance, at the necromancer’s. And that’s why Angel listened to Spike about not killing Pavayne. And that’s why Angel made no protest at Spike’s claiming Angel’s prized Viper. Oh, and hatred is probably, too, why Spike saved Angel from the parasite. And don’t forget that other example of hatred: Spike not dusting Angel at The Two Columns. And the private conversations between them about William’s poetry, hell, ensoulment and the nature of suffering, Spike’s feeling useless and having become a white hat, and the nature of work and corruption at Wolfram& Hart. Oh yes, definitely, seething hatred between those two. Huh. Really, their relationship? It’s a lot more complicated than it appears.
S: liked this observation and the list of Spike and Angel mirror qualities.
saved my one major disagreement for last:
makd said: Eve’s riposte: “Look inside yourself, unless you don’t like what you see.”
Sue: The actual quote is closer to: "So things aren't going your way and you're looking for someone outside your inner circle to blame. Here's a thought. Why don't you try looking inward unless you don't like what you see?
"Try looking inward" is much vaguer and open to far more interpretation vis-a-vi then entire gang than "look inside yourself."
Great job!
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Post by LadyDi on Jan 25, 2004 21:47:41 GMT -5
S: This troubled me. Much the same way Spike sex with Harmony troubled me. Of course, I've got to get over expecting Spike to live up to human (especially human conservative Christian values regarding sex) values, even if he is souled. But, it's more than that. It troubled me because of the question Caraleigh posed earlier in the week: Do we treat Spike, or other characters, differently because of Spike-love. Most of us denied being biased. One person however essentially said, "Hell yes and proud of it!"
Anyway, I submit that most of us do indeed cut Spike a break on behavior we wouldn't tolerate in Angel and our (non)reaction to this scene speaks volumes. If Angel had left Buffy behind in Sunnydale (still in love with her and vice versa), gone off to L.A. and within weeks was hanging out drinking in strip bars we'd be all over him.
It has to do with expectations. Angel always has had extremely (maybe impossibly) high expectations of himself and we buy into that. Spike, however, has always been written as the "bad boy". We expect him to go on a drunken tear and leer at women and so we cut him a break.
I couldn't disagree with this more. I was deeply unhappy when I read the spoiler about Spike having a go with Harmony. OTOH, Spike had just become corporeal again. Plus, I tend to cut him slack more 'cuz of the whole crazy sacrificing himself to save the world thing. Am I biased? D*mn straight. Just as Harmony has to try harder w/o a soul, so Angel has to try harder w/o being as "evolved" as Spike. Angel is weaker overall (IMO) and we find it all too easy to make excuses for him.
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Post by makd on Jan 25, 2004 22:48:58 GMT -5
makd- I was blown away by your analysis of Soul Purpose- sincerely- that review wold have made me watch the show even if I had never seen it b//4 I particularly like the idea of Spike and Angel being mirror images of one another- they complement and contort each ohter's true signifigance. As to the whole Angel Buffy relationship- I swooned along with the rest of the Bangel audience at the romantic intensity of their attachment but one scne always makes me slightly uncomfortable- when Buffy takes Angel upstairs -after pretending to her mother tht he has gone- and he sneaks behind her- it looks so undignified that it sucked the romance right out of the moment and that was due to his age. It no longer looked like Romeo and Juliet- it just looked kind of creepy- a grown man following a 16 year old up to her bedroom unbeknownst to her mother- the fact that she needed to save his life was subsumed in the ick factor of him tiptoing and hiding in her frilly bedroom- I do feel that overall the show strongly suggested that the overwhelming passion had its negative effects- it did not pass judgement on the passion so much as just comment upon the repercussions. Oh you wrote "Angel was originally meant to take off with Drusilla and be killed. What brought him back was the development of a huge fan base. In real life, the fan base doesn't bring back the guy" I had no idea Angel was supposed to be killed off- I thought it was Spike who was supposed to be Drusilla's boy toy and killed by Angel but that the overwhelming response to JM's charisma shortchanged that storyline? ellie Somewhere along the line, I read that Angel was supposed to last for two seasons, be killed, then Buffy was to go on and find a new guy. However, the chemistry between SMG and the fanbase for the couple - and the guy- were so intense that, even though Angel had been killed, he was brought back. Spike was supposed to be killed after 5-6 shows, but the same deal: chemistry (even hotter with SMG, in my opinion) and fan base brought him back. He was supposed to be paired with Dru in Lover's Walk, but when she was available, JW decided to go with Spike as a solo and the episode was re-written. Spike was so effective as a solo that JW brought him in as a series regular in season 4.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jan 25, 2004 22:49:19 GMT -5
Makd, I've been reading through the comments and I'm happy that many of them include praise and appreciation of your fine review. This was a difficult episode to sort out and, I think, an important episode for leading into further developments. It's a kind of statement about where the principal players stand now...in their own estimation.
You did an excellent and elegant job of (1) sorting things out and (2) giving your take and interpretation of what we all saw. That's the main virtue of these guest reviews--presenting a thought-out, coherent, independent analysis of the episode apart from the give-and-take of board discussion.
You, and the guest reviewers who preceded you, have set a high standard for those who follow to emulate.
And your review was just...plain...FUN. That's always a plus.
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Post by Rob on Jan 26, 2004 3:01:12 GMT -5
Makd, I think your review was wonderful. I can't say enough about how much fun it was to read while I was being informed.
I had a few thoughts regarding some of the characters' actions:
Wes and Gunn weren't consciously going behind anyone's back. Spike had valid points about Wolfram and Hart messing with their heads. No question about that. On the other hand, Spike isn't stupid...he knows perfectly well, IMO, that Lindsey is using him.
However, since Spike has a bad history in any group dynamic, he'll take what he can get on his own. He is trying to find his way completely on his own...and Lindsey is using that against him.
It's true that Angel needs to get past his vanity...but so does Spike. They're both so busy figuratively grasping their crotches whenever they're in the same room...they miss the point entirely. Angel and Spike on the same team is the answer.
Neither wants to admit the other has value. Angel is scared that Spike will make him irrelevant...while Spike is scared that he can't operate within a group dynamic.
The bad guys are playing on those weaknesses.
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Post by Rob on Jan 26, 2004 3:25:06 GMT -5
makd - interesting review. Love the suggestions for musical accompaniment (sp?). OTOH, I've so totally run out of patience with Angel. I really used to like him, and I was hoping to like him again. Instead, I find his behavior appalling. Not just his behavior towards Spike, either. As for stress, I feel it's way too easy to make excuses for Angel. You wanna talk about loss? Spike lost everything in making his big glorious sacrifice. The only way he could make the save was by letting go. He was ready to do that, and (supposedly) Angel was ready to change W&H. Angel knew taking over W&H wasn't gonna be like tiptoe-ing thru the tulips. Angel is allowing his insecurities to get the better of him and he's blaming Spike for his problems. Spike is not a problem, or a source of problems (beyond minor annoyance)! Eve may be evil, but she's right in saying that Angel needs to take a good long look at himself. Far as I'm concerned, Angel needs to get over himself in a big, fat hurry. He is not now, nor has he ever been, the only one working for good! Angel lost any chance at watching his own son grow up...then he had to remove him from his life. Everything that is happening this year is a result of that act. There is no doubt Angel is questioning himself in comparison to Spike. Also, there is some bitterness as well; Spike's soul wasn't forced upon him. He went out and got it (though he apparently didn't understand all the implications of that action). Unlike Spike, Angel had no support system when he was cursed. He spent nearly a century trying to find his own way...while Spike at least had Buffy to focus on from the start. Spike has occasionally shown an inclination to do good now that he is pretty much on his own (his actions in Hellbound, helping Gunn, leaving the strip club to save a damsel in distress)...just like Angel did at times before Whistler came along (the Hyperion in the 50's, saving the puppy). Thing is, neither of them HAD to do any good for anyone. The soul doesn't automatically make you into a hero. If that were true, Warren could have been one. That, to me, is what bothers Angel the most. I think he pinned a lot of his own self-worth to the fact that he managed to get through his anguish and scratch out a noble purpose for himself. It was a terrible burden, but it was unique. It was the one worthwhile thing he could claim for his own...much like the dynamic of Buffy and Faith. Buffy complained a lot, and with good reason...but she didn't know if she could deal with someone else being just as unigue, either. Spike really didn't have to go it along like Angel (or Faith) did...he had Buffy's support almost from the very beginning. Angel lost his son. He lost his best friend to a coma, very nearly after having to kill her. Now Spike comes along...a year after he got a soul of his very own....and threatens to make a century's worth of pain meaningless. Is Angel wrong? Well, yeah. Of course he is. Spike having a soul just creates an opportunity for another ally against Evil. What Angel went through is still remarkable...Spike is simply EQUALLY remarkable in his own way. In time, I think both will learn to work together...but it most certainly won't happen overnight. I think it's grossly unrealistic to expect that much from Angel right away. How many years did it take Buffy and Faith to understand just how valuble they were to one another?
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Post by ellie on Jan 26, 2004 13:30:38 GMT -5
Angel lost any chance at watching his own son grow up...then he had to remove him from his life. Everything that is happening this year is a result of that act. There is no doubt Angel is questioning himself in comparison to Spike. Also, there is some bitterness as well; Spike's soul wasn't forced upon him. He went out and got it (though he apparently didn't understand all the implications of that action). Unlike Spike, Angel had no support system when he was cursed. He spent nearly a century trying to find his own way...while Spike at least had Buffy to focus on from the start. Spike has occasionally shown an inclination to do good now that he is pretty much on his own (his actions in Hellbound, helping Gunn, leaving the strip club to save a damsel in distress)...just like Angel did at times before Whistler came along (the Hyperion in the 50's, saving the puppy). Thing is, neither of them HAD to do any good for anyone. The soul doesn't automatically make you into a hero. If that were true, Warren could have been one. That, to me, is what bothers Angel the most. I think he pinned a lot of his own self-worth to the fact that he managed to get through his anguish and scratch out a noble purpose for himself. It was a terrible burden, but it was unique. It was the one worthwhile thing he could claim for his own...much like the dynamic of Buffy and Faith. Buffy complained a lot, and with good reason...but she didn't know if she could deal with someone else being just as unigue, either. Spike really didn't have to go it along like Angel (or Faith) did...he had Buffy's support almost from the very beginning. Angel lost his son. He lost his best friend to a coma, very nearly after having to kill her. Now Spike comes along...a year after he got a soul of his very own....and threatens to make a century's worth of pain meaningless. Is Angel wrong? Well, yeah. Of course he is. Spike having a soul just creates an opportunity for another ally against Evil. What Angel went through is still remarkable...Spike is simply EQUALLY remarkable in his own way. In time, I think both will learn to work together...but it most certainly won't happen overnight. I think it's grossly unrealistic to expect that much from Angel right away. How many years did it take Buffy and Faith to understand just how valuble they were to one another? rob- I like your comparison of the dynamic between Buffy/Faith and Angel/Spike- I had never thought of that- people have to be able to see themselves as unique- Buffy and Angel had their "individuality" handed to them( Anya complained ina sniping way inSeason 7 about that very thing) and although they struggled with their destiny- they also derived comfort from the fact that it was their singularity that distingushed them- Having to fight to maintain one's equanimity in the face of "copycats"( Are you 12 asked Buffy exasperatedly when Angel complains that Spike has stolenhis thunder) is a difficult and lacerating task. Buffy had to face it definitively in Season 7 and she graciously shared her power- finally comprehending that it was not a diminishment but an enhancing she demonstrated donning the mantle of responsibility often means enlarging one's power base by accepting and admitting the power of other individuals. Nowit is Angel's turn- ellie
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Post by LadyDi on Jan 26, 2004 14:47:05 GMT -5
Rob, you have a very good point about Angel valuing his uniqueness, and there is a connection btwn Angel/Spike and Buffy/Faith. However, I draw your attention to Buffy/Kendra. Buffy and Kendra clashed, but they managed to work together quite well. Buffy was relieved to know she wasn't "the only freak." Buffy also made more of an effort to work with Faith, and really tried to help her. It seemed almost as if Faith had more problems dealing with Buffy. Buffy had the life Faith desperately, secretly wanted. Maybe this is part of ME's comment on the differences btwn men and women? Buffy can share her power with others, and her friends/family are vital to her success. Angel, OTOH, feels threatened by Spike and is growing increasingly paranoid at W&H (of course, W&H really is out to get him). I realize Spike was very lucky to have a support group, but he wouldn't have had that support if not for his previous good works. Angel had no such good will to fall back on after the gypsies put the whammy on him. I never expected Angel to welcome Spike like the prodigal son/brother. But, I didn't think it was too much to expect Angel would show Spike some respect and understanding. Guess I should've known better. Angel still sees Buffy as the innocent HS girl she was, and he still sees Spike as the monster he was. Angel claimed to know Spike better than anyone in Hellbound. Truth is, he doesn't know Spike at all.
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