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Post by makd on Jan 28, 2004 13:25:22 GMT -5
mkd - just wanted to add my kudos to your truly thought-provoking and fun review. I'm still digesting it and all of the comments. I haven't listened to the music yet either. I loved your candy explanations and your interpretations of all of the metaphors, symbols, etc. in the dream sequences especially. You are certainly a talented writer. I can't wait to hear your paper in Nashville. Thanks, Lori; appreciate the fine words about my fine wording. As to Nashville, gaack!!! Hope it's of the good. And Remember, the Nashville paper isn't about BtVS or AtS. It's about virtcoms. The subsequent papers will be funner - they'll be about love in the buffyverse and about fanfic, the fans, etc. Lots more fun, lots less crisp.
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Post by ldelrossi on Jan 28, 2004 13:43:22 GMT -5
Where will you be giving the "funner" papers?
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Post by makd on Jan 28, 2004 13:46:18 GMT -5
Wendy Thanks for the fine words; they are much appreciated. Thanks to Tuesday night TNT@11, I am catching up on Season 4 Angel. I tried to watch last year, but got hopelessly lost on the intricacies of the plot. I would miss an episode, then be totally lost. TNT is running AtS at a time that is much more convenient for me, so I don't think I've missed more than 2-3 episodes. I came in on Spin the Bottle. I missed the one that introduces us to Gwen Raiden, and missed the opening episode - maybe one other. Still, I am totally on board and loving each episode. My favorite? The episode where Cordy and Connor get in on and Angel watches. Not only did I almost fall out of a comfy chair, I yelled, "oh, shit!, Holy crap!", and MOPS came running thinking something had happened. Thanks to Angelus, I also got caught up on other things, like the professor's murder. Normally I would not approve of the murder of a colleague, but I backtracked, thanks to cityofangel.com, did a little reading, and figured out what had happened. I'd have pushed him myself, had I had the option. IMO, there's gonna be a HUGE fallout between Angel and the Team. I just wonder where Spike will be in this: will he back family, or will he back the team? That look on Wes' face (Check it out at Alanna's LJ: www.redshirts.net/angel/soulpurpose/index_2.htm) just creeps me out. The man has ice water in the veins. That look reminded me of the old adage, "The apple falls not far from the tree." He may love Angel, but he doesn't trust him for one moment. It was unguarded, but, hot damn! what a fine 3actor is Alexis Denisof! He is prime, Grade A. Just. the best. Eat your heart out, Gandolfini, who just doesn't hold a candle to the ex-Watcher, who, by the way, is just. always. watching. He reminds me a little of the still-energy that Edward James Olmos projected as the Lt. in Miami Vice. (See? I did catch a few episodes.) Quote from Wendy's post : As to the Fred Angel 'ship... I am wondering if you saw the episode late in 4th season, where Angel and Fred kiss? If not, here's the set up: They are running from Jasminites, when a group of people begin to approach them, they do the typical "let's kiss, so maybe no one will notice us" thing (you can do that in the sewers, but not in the initiative. ) From the episode Magic Bullet: ooh, ooh, this was one episode I did see last year!! and, yes, I thought, too, that Angel had bought into the kiss. And, in his situation, taking those long "gentleman's baths"? he HAS to lead a rich fantasy life. I recall the post-Pylea scenes. There's a sweetness - always an undertone of sweetness and care and gentleness, in all Angel's dealings with Fred. He has a deep caring for her. I want to see where it will go, and how it will collide with Captain Ice's feelings for her. (Capt. Ice being Wes. If he can be so cold, imagine how "hot" his feelings for Fred must be. Those still waters, runnin' deep.....) Finally, yes. Doyle. Once more, I'm gonna say, 'cause I don't tire of saying it. I miss True!Doyle. I miss the warmth. I miss the sweet. I miss the layers. {sigh} There were such hidden depths there.
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Post by makd on Jan 28, 2004 13:49:08 GMT -5
Where will you be giving the "funner" papers? Hopefully, the Popular Culture Assn' and the folks at Slayage will invite me back for their conferences in 2005. That's when the subsequent papers will start to kick in. Each project will take an anticipated 3-4 months to complete. Then, there's the data analysis and write-ups, with conference proceedings following. Result? about 8-10 months start-finish. And, this is a 4 year project for all 5 parts till completion.....
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Post by thelittlestvampire on Jan 28, 2004 15:24:32 GMT -5
Hey Makd-
I rewatched Soul Purpose last night and I Could Not Beleive I missed the Pearl Necklace thing.
I hang my head.
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Post by Karen on Jan 28, 2004 17:00:42 GMT -5
Wendy Thanks for the fine words; they are much appreciated. Thanks to Tuesday night TNT@11, I am catching up on Season 4 Angel. I tried to watch last year, but got hopelessly lost on the intricacies of the plot. I would miss an episode, then be totally lost. TNT is running AtS at a time that is much more convenient for me, so I don't think I've missed more than 2-3 episodes. I came in on Spin the Bottle. I missed the one that introduces us to Gwen Raiden, and missed the opening episode - maybe one other. Still, I am totally on board and loving each episode. My favorite? The episode where Cordy and Connor get in on and Angel watches. Not only did I almost fall out of a comfy chair, I yelled, "oh, shit!, Holy crap!", and MOPS came running thinking something had happened. Thanks to Angelus, I also got caught up on other things, like the professor's murder. Normally I would not approve of the murder of a colleague, but I backtracked, thanks to cityofangel.com, did a little reading, and figured out what had happened. I'd have pushed him myself, had I had the option. IMO, there's gonna be a HUGE fallout between Angel and the Team. I just wonder where Spike will be in this: will he back family, or will he back the team? That look on Wes' face (Check it out at Alanna's LJ: www.redshirts.net/angel/soulpurpose/index_2.htm) just creeps me out. The man has ice water in the veins. That look reminded me of the old adage, "The apple falls not far from the tree." He may love Angel, but he doesn't trust him for one moment. It was unguarded, but, hot damn! what a fine 3actor is Alexis Denisof! He is prime, Grade A. Just. the best. Eat your heart out, Gandolfini, who just doesn't hold a candle to the ex-Watcher, who, by the way, is just. always. watching. He reminds me a little of the still-energy that Edward James Olmos projected as the Lt. in Miami Vice. (See? I did catch a few episodes.) Quote from Wendy's post : As to the Fred Angel 'ship... I am wondering if you saw the episode late in 4th season, where Angel and Fred kiss? If not, here's the set up: They are running from Jasminites, when a group of people begin to approach them, they do the typical "let's kiss, so maybe no one will notice us" thing (you can do that in the sewers, but not in the initiative. ) From the episode Magic Bullet: ooh, ooh, this was one episode I did see last year!! and, yes, I thought, too, that Angel had bought into the kiss. And, in his situation, taking those long "gentleman's baths"? he HAS to lead a rich fantasy life. I recall the post-Pylea scenes. There's a sweetness - always an undertone of sweetness and care and gentleness, in all Angel's dealings with Fred. He has a deep caring for her. I want to see where it will go, and how it will collide with Captain Ice's feelings for her. (Capt. Ice being Wes. If he can be so cold, imagine how "hot" his feelings for Fred must be. Those still waters, runnin' deep.....) Finally, yes. Doyle. Once more, I'm gonna say, 'cause I don't tire of saying it. I miss True!Doyle. I miss the warmth. I miss the sweet. I miss the layers. {sigh} There were such hidden depths there. Wes would be completely thrown if Angel and Fred happened to get together. And what with the pearl necklace scene, who knows? As Angelus, he did make it a point to tell Fred how "gripping" it was to hear what when on between her and Gunn. Oooo. I can see it now, and it ain't gonna be pretty if that's where they are going with the story. But I don't want Wes to be bad. He can be a bad ass, but not bad. Not Wes. They wouldn't be so cruel as to put him through that again?
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Post by Nickim on Jan 28, 2004 17:39:21 GMT -5
Wes would be completely thrown if Angel and Fred happened to get together. And what with the pearl necklace scene, who knows? As Angelus, he did make it a point to tell Fred how "gripping" it was to hear what when on between her and Gunn. Oooo. I can see it now, and it ain't gonna be pretty if that's where they are going with the story. But I don't want Wes to be bad. He can be a bad ass, but not bad. Not Wes. They wouldn't be so cruel as to put him through that again? Maybe Billy was foreshadowing.
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Post by LadyDi on Jan 28, 2004 18:40:08 GMT -5
Hope you enjoyed the music with the review! I think it makes it more fun, IMO. On Angel: Lady Di, I love you, but you gotta cut The Big Man some slack. {}{} Go easy on him....It'll get better. He has to hit bottom before he'll start to rise. He's lost; he doesn't know where to turn. I mean: Who can he talk to? Is there a vampire corollary to Soprano's Shrink? Last time I checked, vampires don't have the aegis of the confessional. He's isolated himself and separated himself from his friends and his family (Spike). He's as trapped and alone as he was when he was in that water-logged coffin! And the reason is the same: Connor. There's a good reason Connor was called The Destroyer. Shortly before my Buffy addiction got going full blast, there were some personal problems I was experiencing. One of the pieces of wisdom someone I love shared with me was to love this person (who was causing me pain) freely, forgive the hurt, and get the pain behind me. You know, when I heard Buffy say that the original slayer told her, "Love. Give. Forgive.", I almost fell out of the comfy chair. I could have sworn the words were written by my friend. And it's such good advice. That's not just good advice for Buffy. It's good advice for all of us. You also said: Angel has to try harder w/o being as "evolved" as Spike. Angel is weaker overall (IMO)". Yes; this doesn't excuse him; it explains why it's so easy for him to fall. And hey? It's a TV show, so.... {}{} If I expect too much from Angel, blame Spike for raising the bar. Angel has (IMO) sunk from Brooding to Wallowing. I have very little patience for Wallowing. All I'm trying to say is "life isn't bliss." Suffering is par for the course in the Jossverse, and the sooner Angel realizes he's not the only one hurting, we'll all be better off. Angelus loved causing pain. Sometimes I think that's why Angel suffers so. Not just from the pain he caused as Angelus, but from having Angelus inside him - twisting all kinds of knives.
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Post by makd on Jan 28, 2004 18:51:20 GMT -5
If I expect too much from Angel, blame Spike for raising the bar. Angel has (IMO) sunk from Brooding to Wallowing. I have very little patience for Wallowing. All I'm trying to say is "life isn't bliss." Suffering is par for the course in the Jossverse, and the sooner Angel realizes he's not the only one hurting, we'll all be better off. Angelus loved causing pain. Sometimes I think that's why Angel suffers so. Not just from the pain he caused as Angelus, but from having Angelus inside him - twisting all kinds of knives. {}{}
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Post by Karen on Jan 28, 2004 19:56:45 GMT -5
If I expect too much from Angel, blame Spike for raising the bar. Angel has (IMO) sunk from Brooding to Wallowing. I have very little patience for Wallowing. All I'm trying to say is "life isn't bliss." Suffering is par for the course in the Jossverse, and the sooner Angel realizes he's not the only one hurting, we'll all be better off. Angelus loved causing pain. Sometimes I think that's why Angel suffers so. Not just from the pain he caused as Angelus, but from having Angelus inside him - twisting all kinds of knives. Joss is not going to give us a happy Angel - because that's Angelus. Angelus is loads of happy. I prefer the broody, soul-searching Angel. Viva la differance! (well - you know - French) ;D
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jan 28, 2004 20:20:05 GMT -5
LOL! Joss is not going to give us a happy Angel - because that's Angelus. Angelus is loads of happy. I prefer the broody, soul-searching Angel. Viva la differance! (well - you know - French) ;D It's possible to be unhappy without being so darned overt about it, though. Wallowing is the word for it; Angel needs to find somewhere to be besides bitchy/miserable. It's just not attractive ;D
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Post by Karen on Jan 29, 2004 11:45:54 GMT -5
It's possible to be unhappy without being so darned overt about it, though. Wallowing is the word for it; Angel needs to find somewhere to be besides bitchy/miserable. It's just not attractive ;D Yep, Angel walks a fine line, as Wes once said, and I don't envy it either. I do wonder what will be the "trigger" that will either send him over the edge or save him again.
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Post by Kerrie on Apr 18, 2004 19:24:12 GMT -5
WOW Makd! What a fabulous review! It gave me a lot to think about.
The ensuing discussion was also extremely interesting, which is great because my husband has been asking what the S'Cubies have been saying abou the episode.
I have a couple of disjointed points that relate to the analysis and discussion. (They are disjointed because I am simultaneously interacting with the 3-year old and occassionally the 4 year-old.)
First. Fred eating the raisins. I am not sure what that meant and you were too polite to spell it out so I will assume that it is related to the large intestine which was not literally removed. The nicest way to put it is that Fred is the only one buying Angel's rubbish. An interesting thought.
Second. Angel's dream of Spike receiving the Shanshu reward and turning into Number cinquo. When I first saw this episode I thought it implied that the "over-justification effect" would occur for Angel and the shanshu prophesy whereby Angel becomes motivated to act purely because of the reward whilst losing all the intrinsic enjoyment of doing the task for it's own sake. Nan disagreed with me on this, but after seeing the episode I still think that this is what the dream-sequence represents. IN Angel's dreams idyllic Spike is acting on pure motives, not for the reward and is thus rewarded. The fact that Angel turned into NUmber cinquo at this point confirmed to me that Angel is actually afraid that the shanshu reward is corrupting him by distracting him from his true motivation to help the helpless because they need his help.
Third. Sue said she was not pleased that Spike was in a stripjoint. I also felt my esteem for Spike significantly lessened by this. Initially to me it seemed like Spring and Lady Di were wrong when they said (in the My Take for Destiny) that Spike had reached rock-bottom in that episode and he improves in subsequent eps. However, after thinking about it I have changed my mind. It is possible that Spike is not tereating women as sex objects when he goes to the strip club. He is possibly celebrating his own sexuality. This leads to a couple of thoughts. Doyle/Lindsay is offering Spke the celibate life of a traditional hero. Spike is not a traditionalist. The other Sex Pistol song that I know is "I am an anarchist" - this sums up Spike to some extent even if he doesnot want to be an Anti-Christ. The celibate, lonely life of a traditional hero just is not him. He likes company and he likes women. May I again raise the possibility that Angel is Catholic with the celibate Priest as a role-model whilst Spike is probably Anglican (sorry, one of the English Christian religions) with the married Vicar/Minister role model? Spike is just not going to fulfill Doyle/Lindsay's dream for very long. He doesn't believe in it. As an aside I don't know that JW believes in it either. The emphasis for both AtS and BtVS is that a healthy hero has romance and friends in their lives. It helps keep the hero healthy. The traditional hero's life is unhealthy.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Apr 18, 2004 19:43:07 GMT -5
May I again raise the possibility that Angel is Catholic with the celibate Priest as a role-model whilst Spike is probably Anglican (sorry, one of the English Christian religions) with the married Vicar/Minister role model? huh. coolness. and also, only very recently but still, the Church of England has women vicars. So that extends to the Spike treating women as equals thing.
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