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Post by makd on Feb 7, 2004 19:05:24 GMT -5
I'm with you on that; the amount of pure vitriol which was written about JM when he was hired for s5 and CC was not was some of the ugliest stuff I've ever seen online, including accusations of JM actively undermining CC's position with Joss/ME. I liked Charisma in Buffy, and went into AtS s4 cold, without understanding her character in the earlier seasons... and HATED her, after the funny "I'm so bored" in Deep Down and her interfernence in "The House Always Wins". I hated her lines, her part in the story, and her look. Then I saw s1-3 on TNT and really got into Cordelia's part in the story, up until the "higher power" bit, which I loathed again. I don't know WHY the story was taken that way, but it didn't work at all for me, and I can't see, other than the way "You're Welcome" worked out, what they would have done to bring back the old, funny, useful, grounded Cordelia. That's who I miss, and I don't see any clear path back to that after s4. Julia, well, that's not particularly clear, is it? Right there with you, Scooter. Hated her in Season 4 (in fact, I couldn't get into season 4, and the major reason was cordy/connor. Just awful 3. However, thanks to TNT, I can say that I loved Cordy in seasons 1-3. Lastly, if I had to choose between Cordy and Spike on AtS season 5, I would choose Spike. reason? If Cordy were still on, I wouldn't be watching, thanks to hurl memories of season 4 AtS. No way they can come back from that...and, there's that whole pesky curse.... The growth that Angel is going through because Spike is there is important to his character - more so than his attempts to love Cordy without Angelusing. In fact, Spike challenges all the characters in a way that Cordy never did: he really forces them to think about priorities and mission differently than Cordy. I like his presence there, just as I did his presence on BtVS. He brings a lot to the playground. And Charisma? Onto more comedy (her real forte), more Miss Match, more time with her son. I can dig that,too.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Feb 7, 2004 20:39:48 GMT -5
Right there with you, Scooter. Hated her in Season 4 (in fact, I couldn't get into season 4, and the major reason was cordy/connor. Just awful 3. However, thanks to TNT, I can say that I loved Cordy in seasons 1-3. Lastly, if I had to choose between Cordy and Spike on AtS season 5, I would choose Spike. reason? If Cordy were still on, I wouldn't be watching, thanks to hurl memories of season 4 AtS. No way they can come back from that...and, there's that whole pesky curse.... The growth that Angel is going through because Spike is there is important to his character - more so than his attempts to love Cordy without Angelusing. In fact, Spike challenges all the characters in a way that Cordy never did: he really forces them to think about priorities and mission differently than Cordy. I like his presence there, just as I did his presence on BtVS. He brings a lot to the playground. And Charisma? Onto more comedy (her real forte), more Miss Match, more time with her son. I can dig that,too. The Connor stuff was just icky, but I found the whole Evil!Possessed!Cordy unspeakably awful- entirely unconvincing as a person or a threat. I have to admit to disliking most of AtS s4 compared, even, to BtVS s7 and wondering at the time how the show had managed to survive as long as it had. Part of that is my shippy, shippy heart: I really need a relationship to hook me into the story, although it doesn't have to be a man/woman one (I was a Homicide Life on the Streets junky, and the relationships I got into were those of the cop parteners, not any dating couples) and AtS s.4 was about the breakdown of relationships, friends, lovers, and father/son. What I'm liking about AtS s5 is the growth of some relationships, especially Angel and Spike (with no Spangel intent). Julia, who suddnly forgot where that line of thought was intended to go. Oh, well.
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Post by Karen on Feb 7, 2004 20:45:40 GMT -5
Right there with you, Scooter. Hated her in Season 4 (in fact, I couldn't get into season 4, and the major reason was cordy/connor. Just awful 3. However, thanks to TNT, I can say that I loved Cordy in seasons 1-3. Lastly, if I had to choose between Cordy and Spike on AtS season 5, I would choose Spike. reason? If Cordy were still on, I wouldn't be watching, thanks to hurl memories of season 4 AtS. No way they can come back from that...and, there's that whole pesky curse.... The growth that Angel is going through because Spike is there is important to his character - more so than his attempts to love Cordy without Angelusing. In fact, Spike challenges all the characters in a way that Cordy never did: he really forces them to think about priorities and mission differently than Cordy. I like his presence there, just as I did his presence on BtVS. He brings a lot to the playground. And Charisma? Onto more comedy (her real forte), more Miss Match, more time with her son. I can dig that,too. You're right, makd. There's that pesky curse that would kill any romantic relationship between Angel and Cordy. The way they ended it was really as good as it gets. I agree that Spike is going to challenge and make Angel grow in ways that Cordy never did or could. Angel depended too much on Cordelia, and Wes, and Gunn, IMO. He needs to get on with it - grow up, take control and stop depending so much on others to take up the slack. It's going to be an very interesting 10 weeks. Can I say how unhappy I am about the season being more than half over? Oh, and Spring, if DB wasn't on Angel, JM wouldn't be there either. But I understand what you meant, and I love that JM came on to "save" Angel. I'd like to see a spin-off if DB decides to leave and take on directing in a few years called "William the Good", or something like that. "Spike" just doesn't sound like a good title to me for some reason. Maybe Andrew could come aboard to bug the heck out of him. I wonder if JM (or JW) would be up to doing that though. But I'd like to see both JM and DB around for a long, long time. Alexis, too, for that matter. Gosh, I'm sounding very greedy about the boys.
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Post by Karen on Feb 7, 2004 20:47:03 GMT -5
The Connor stuff was just icky, but I found the whole Evil!Possessed!Cordy unspeakably awful- entirely unconvincing as a person or a threat. I have to admit to disliking most of AtS s4 compared, even, to BtVS s7 and wondering at the time how the show had managed to survive as long as it had. Part of that is my shippy, shippy heart: I really need a relationship to hook me into the story, although it doesn't have to be a man/woman one (I was a Homicide Life on the Streets junky, and the relationships I got into were those of the cop parteners, not any dating couples) and AtS s.4 was about the breakdown of relationships, friends, lovers, and father/son. What I'm liking about AtS s5 is the growth of some relationships, especially Angel and Spike (with no Spangel intent). Julia, who suddnly forgot where that line of thought was intended to go. Oh, well. Julia - I really miss the girl/guy relationships this season, too. Hopefully they'll give us a hook-up with Fred and Wesley. Of course, you do know if we get that we are going to be in for some heartache.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Feb 7, 2004 20:53:23 GMT -5
Julia - I really miss the girl/guy relationships this season, too. Hopefully they'll give us a hook-up with Fred and Wesley. Of course, you do know if we get that we are going to be in for some heartache. I'm not entirely convinced the Fred and Wes are good for each other; in some ways the thing they have in common is that they're neither entirely sane. Think of them planning together to do in Professor Seidel, for instance... scary. Julia, who really sees very little in the way of potential romantic ships given the field of characters we've got right now
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Post by Dev(Rob) on Feb 7, 2004 21:42:54 GMT -5
Glad most of you liked my review, hopefully I'll get to do another before the end of season 5! I too if given the choice like Rachael would rather Cordy have been on the show than Spike. Don't get me wrong I am a HUGE Spike fan and am in every way glad he is now on the show. I was upset and angry with JW for letting Cordy no longer be apart of the show and when it comes down to it I believe it is a 6 and 2 3's kind of situation (Although I did read numerous articles and so such claiming Charisma was utterly shocked at being what was back then unofficially axed from the show). I don't think it was JM's fault that CC got axed but as I'm a massive long time Cordy nut as I said above, if it came down to a choice between the two I'd rather see Cordy on the show than Spike . . . but saying that why not just get rid of Gunn and have CORDY AND SPIKE yay
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Post by Dev(Rob) on Feb 7, 2004 21:46:42 GMT -5
Just to add to the above, I can see the total benefit of Spike being on the show rather than Cordy as a character. He does benefit the rest of the characters and help develop them in new interesting ways. With season 4 nearly bringing the end to my beloved show Spikes addition has totally re-vamped (excuse the pun) along with other things AtS. Roll on season 6 ?
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Post by Rachael on Feb 7, 2004 21:51:03 GMT -5
Glad most of you liked my review, hopefully I'll get to do another before the end of season 5! I too if given the choice like Rachael would rather Cordy have been on the show than Spike. Don't get me wrong I am a HUGE Spike fan and am in every way glad he is now on the show. I was upset and angry with JW for letting Cordy no longer be apart of the show and when it comes down to it I believe it is a 6 and 2 3's kind of situation (Although I did read numerous articles and so such claiming Charisma was utterly shocked at being what was back then unofficially axed from the show). I don't think it was JM's fault that CC got axed but as I'm a massive long time Cordy nut as I said above, if it came down to a choice between the two I'd rather see Cordy on the show than Spike . . . but saying that why not just get rid of Gunn and have CORDY AND SPIKE yay No, no, no! Gunn is one of the most interesting things going on Angel right now (IMHO). This is the problem. I want all of them, and I want them all to have really cool story arcs, but for that I need 3X as many eps per season.
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Post by Linda on Feb 8, 2004 0:58:49 GMT -5
Excellent review, Dev. I'm still in mourning at the loss of Cordelia. I sobbed at the ending, and I was never a big Angel and Cordelia shipper. But they showed us what might have been, and I feel the loss. When Cordelia referred to Doyle as the "first soldier down", I didn't suspect that she was trying to tell us that she would be the second one. You pointed out that Cordelia is the second soldier down, and that she sacrificed herself for Angel in much the same way that Doyle did. That is such a great insight! It is very fitting that Cordelia die a hero's death. She deserved it and paid the price many times over. Although Cordelia often showed us her vain and snooty side, we often saw her tender and courageous side. Her spirit and her compassion. I'm going to miss her so much, but I had already missed "our Cordelia" for most of last season. Thanks for a great review. Karen Hey Dev, What she said. Also, feel free to expand on your Personal Thoughts section. Especially if your opinion is controversial. We all like a good knock down dragout fight civilized discussion. Linda, who hasn't yet re-watched the episode like the others 'cause of the sadness of permanent good-byes
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Post by Karen on Feb 8, 2004 8:38:02 GMT -5
Hey Dev, What she said. Also, feel free to expand on your Personal Thoughts section. Especially if your opinion is controversial. We all like a good knock down dragout fight civilized discussion. Linda, who hasn't yet re-watched the episode like the others 'cause of the sadness of permanent good-byes Linda - Cute signature you thought up - "The 82% difference: Wheelchair fight? ===> Like nickels?" It have to rewatch the episode, but I took heart in Cordy's "I'll be seeing you." to Angel at the end. That bit of dialogue gave me some hope - it is the Jossverse and anything could happen. If it doesn't, at least we got to see the "old" Cordy one more time - even if that meant we had to take the heartache along with it. Oh, and I'm not trying to convince you to watch it, just grieving a little more and trying to come to terms with "Cordy's gone for good".
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Post by Guest ellie on Feb 8, 2004 10:44:12 GMT -5
Glad most of you liked my review, hopefully I'll get to do another before the end of season 5! I too if given the choice like Rachael would rather Cordy have been on the show than Spike. Don't get me wrong I am a HUGE Spike fan and am in every way glad he is now on the show. I was upset and angry with JW for letting Cordy no longer be apart of the show and when it comes down to it I believe it is a 6 and 2 3's kind of situation (Although I did read numerous articles and so such claiming Charisma was utterly shocked at being what was back then unofficially axed from the show). I don't think it was JM's fault that CC got axed but as I'm a massive long time Cordy nut as I said above, if it came down to a choice between the two I'd rather see Cordy on the show than Spike . . . but saying that why not just get rid of Gunn and have CORDY AND SPIKE yay Morning Dev- late posting here- Do we really have to drag poor Gunn into this Isn't the poor guy in enough trouble with troublesome contracts this year w/o the threat of one being permanently cancelled I agree with Julia that romantic relationships don't ) necessarily fuel the best shows ( but they don't hurt ) tht said- the connections in Jossverse are alwys charismatic and "romatic" to some extent- to the degree that they are all charged- erotically or emotionally- JW has said as much in countless interviews I definitely think there is a romance in the offing for Wes and Fred- it has been simering for a long time- botta bring round that brew for the payoff ( and inevitable kissoff ) I still remember every look Wes ever go when he absorbed over and over that Fred was really not choosing him.... Cordy Cordy- I cannot wrap my mind around her loss- it is painful and therefore brilliant- and mean- devastaing and bittersweet- darn you JW for making me cae- if she had died while boffing Connor- I could have cared less DEV- that was a really good review- and thank you for listing all of the writer's previous forays- it made it easier to think of critiquing his presentation of the characters- I cannot always keep the various writer's interpretations straight- PLEASE write some more reviews I look forward to your viewpoints ( oh and I am going to speak to Gunn about getting your vacation days reduced ellie
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Post by Rachael on Feb 8, 2004 13:31:54 GMT -5
Morning Dev- late posting here- Do we really have to drag poor Gunn into this Isn't the poor guy in enough trouble with troublesome contracts this year w/o the threat of one being permanently cancelled I agree with Julia that romantic relationships don't ) necessarily fuel the best shows ( but they don't hurt ) tht said- the connections in Jossverse are alwys charismatic and "romatic" to some extent- to the degree that they are all charged- erotically or emotionally- JW has said as much in countless interviews I definitely think there is a romance in the offing for Wes and Fred- it has been simering for a long time- botta bring round that brew for the payoff ( and inevitable kissoff ) I still remember every look Wes ever go when he absorbed over and over that Fred was really not choosing him.... Cordy Cordy- I cannot wrap my mind around her loss- it is painful and therefore brilliant- and mean- devastaing and bittersweet- darn you JW for making me cae- if she had died while boffing Connor- I could have cared less DEV- that was a really good review- and thank you for listing all of the writer's previous forays- it made it easier to think of critiquing his presentation of the characters- I cannot always keep the various writer's interpretations straight- PLEASE write some more reviews I look forward to your viewpoints ( oh and I am going to speak to Gunn about getting your vacation days reduced ellie Oh, yeah - the Wes/Fred romance is coming, too. I used to think that it was going to be like Buffy/Xander - she'd know how he felt, but never give him a shot (not her fault if she really didn't feel the same way, but sometimes I wonder, after all those years working side by side with him, what's wrong with the girl? ). But now, with the way this season has played out so far, I think that Fred is drawn to Wesley - for the right or wrong reasons is unclear at this point. I mean, what are the "right" reasons, anyhow? be mentioned that if it's about the magic, then it's wrong - but why? As long as it doesn't stay all about the magic, then why shouldn't that serve as a spark for initial interest? We're all drawn to someone for the first time by one or a couple of small things, that aren't "them", but are facets of that person, and most often they're superficial things, like appearance or a particular skill. Doesn't make any feelings that develop from that initial attraction any less valid or worthy.
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Post by Karen on Feb 8, 2004 14:22:16 GMT -5
Oh, yeah - the Wes/Fred romance is coming, too. I used to think that it was going to be like Buffy/Xander - she'd know how he felt, but never give him a shot (not her fault if she really didn't feel the same way, but sometimes I wonder, after all those years working side by side with him, what's wrong with the girl? ). But now, with the way this season has played out so far, I think that Fred is drawn to Wesley - for the right or wrong reasons is unclear at this point. I mean, what are the "right" reasons, anyhow? be mentioned that if it's about the magic, then it's wrong - but why? As long as it doesn't stay all about the magic, then why shouldn't that serve as a spark for initial interest? We're all drawn to someone for the first time by one or a couple of small things, that aren't "them", but are facets of that person, and most often they're superficial things, like appearance or a particular skill. Doesn't make any feelings that develop from that initial attraction any less valid or worthy. We'll have to wait and see what develops between Fred an Wes - but there was a definite spark between them. Rachael - your signature line got me thinking that maybe Fred is attracted to the *power* she sensed in Wes in that moment, and not the magic so much. I wonder if Wes got a *chalky* aftertaste - and how he really feels about it. Gonna get interesting.
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Post by Guest ellie on Feb 8, 2004 14:41:32 GMT -5
Oh, yeah - the Wes/Fred romance is coming, too. I used to think that it was going to be like Buffy/Xander - she'd know how he felt, but never give him a shot (not her fault if she really didn't feel the same way, but sometimes I wonder, after all those years working side by side with him, what's wrong with the girl? ). But now, with the way this season has played out so far, I think that Fred is drawn to Wesley - for the right or wrong reasons is unclear at this point. I mean, what are the "right" reasons, anyhow? be mentioned that if it's about the magic, then it's wrong - but why? As long as it doesn't stay all about the magic, then why shouldn't that serve as a spark for initial interest? We're all drawn to someone for the first time by one or a couple of small things, that aren't "them", but are facets of that person, and most often they're superficial things, like appearance or a particular skill. Doesn't make any feelings that develop from that initial attraction any less valid or worthy. you know Rachael- I have to agree- people are drawn to those who have demonstrated mastery of certain areas ( witness my many posts eons ago about a certain Dale Chihuly ) certainly one of the things that drew Wes to Fred was an appreciation of her abioities in addition to her many physical charms and sweetness of spirit- I hated that Kennedy was so flippant about Willow's awesome abilities( well actually - Ijust hated Kennedy ) but it served as a kind of catalyst to their relationship as well- One of the thins I don't like about Carrie's relationship to her Russian( and can I say how much I hate her continuing to call him that : is how little interest she has demonstrated in his work- so Fred having her interest in Wesley (re) kindled after seeing his demonstrated ability is understandable- I just think that in this instance she and Wes are headed for baaad stuff- related to their mutual "greyness" about professor Seidel, her whole indecisiveness regarding Knox, their both acceding too readily to W&H- Wes has not had any action since Season 2- he needs some relief Angel has had Buffy,Darla,EveL and romantic interest with Cordy, Kate,Electro-girl and wolf girl- time to spread around the tension- I want Spike to storm Heaven and bring Cordy back- but I think that Gunn and maybe Lindsey would protest- they both seem so preoccupied with what the Senior Partners want- ellie
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Post by Rachael on Feb 8, 2004 20:20:57 GMT -5
We'll have to wait and see what develops between Fred an Wes - but there was a definite spark between them. Rachael - your signature line got me thinking that maybe Fred is attracted to the *power* she sensed in Wes in that moment, and not the magic so much. I wonder if Wes got a *chalky* aftertaste - and how he really feels about it. Gonna get interesting. Karen - before I forget - I'm having weirdness with your avatar, but it might be just me - I'm only seeing half of it! Everyone else's is fine. But. . .what I really wanted to say was - yeah, the power is also likely. It's a fairly well-known (and stereotypical) female response. Apparently, we like powerful men. And Wes certainly falls into that category. Again, I have no real problem with that, as long as she also likes/loves the rest of Wes. Of course, no good can come of it, but that's hardly their faults. It's those ME folks with their relationship issues.
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