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Post by William the Bloody on Apr 19, 2004 19:26:40 GMT -5
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Apr 19, 2004 19:35:59 GMT -5
nice. made thoughts-
Took Lindsey's heart *&* mind, head and heart, everything dust.
took his heart more ways than one- gave him random wifey instead of girl who'd risked her immortality for him. and gave him a son and memories of caring for him. Is Angel who took that away by fixing his memory. And then when they rescue Gunn he'll have those exact same son memories. huh. And his heart, his whole reason for being down there suffering in the first place, went with the memory wipe too. No more remembering Fred or his friends or anything. Or the lawyer upgrade that made the whole mess. No heart, no mind, empty Gunn shell. But with still the spark inside. Could be him again if he gets out again.
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Post by Rachael on Apr 19, 2004 20:45:11 GMT -5
Thinking, still, but one thing that I want to take issue with (it's come up several times in discussing this ep, and I keep forgetting to mention it): Lindsey wasn't in Hell. Gunn isn't (now) in Hell. It's a "holding area" - Purgatory. At least, according to Gunn's original explanation. It's where they keep you until they decide what to do with you. So, Suburbia isn't Hell, so much as Purgatory. Which, to my mind, might be worse. . .still mulling that one over. None of this detracts from the central theme of Lee's wonderful review, though - and I love this interpretation.  |
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 19, 2004 20:48:56 GMT -5
Your review is not mumbo-jumbo, Lee, and I think you've hit on a major ep theme: looking underneath.
I do agree it was in part about the emotional lives of the characters (those ripped out hearts!), and would add that it was also about the truth that lies beneath the surface, and the need to face up to truths (more of the set up we've been getting all Season about Angel and Connor . . . the vibes that the truth will out. Out from underneath.)
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Post by makd on Apr 19, 2004 20:50:56 GMT -5
MWAAAAA. Lee: this is just why I miss being on board when you've already been and gone! I love your insight into the episode and the characters, and you have enhanced my enjoyment of this episode! Thank you!
Shells....it's still all about shells, isn't it? Lindsey, trapped in burb-Hell becomes a shell. He leaves, and now Gunn is a shell.... Isn't it ironic that, in W&H's purgatory, there's a son to see and love everyday, and in Angel's reality, the son is gone.....and only he (and Eve) remember.....
And Fred? She exists only in Wes' memory, in his dreams - or are they nightmares now, because she's gone? And...in his dreams, she tells him to look deeper...
And Wes' dream-joke: I think that's Wes' subconscious telling him that there's something he's forgotten.....and it's gonna pull at him till he unearths the secret Angel's been hiding...Underneath.....
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 19, 2004 21:02:22 GMT -5
Thinking, still, but one thing that I want to take issue with (it's come up several times in discussing this ep, and I keep forgetting to mention it): Lindsey wasn't in Hell. Gunn isn't (now) in Hell. It's a "holding area" - Purgatory. At least, according to Gunn's original explanation. It's where they keep you until they decide what to do with you. So, Suburbia isn't Hell, so much as Purgatory. Which, to my mind, might be worse. . .still mulling that one over. None of this detracts from the central theme of Lee's wonderful review, though - and I love this interpretation. Yep - I thought that too, that it was purgatory. In purgatory, unlike hell, you have a chance of release, and going to heaven. One of the things that makes a difference is having the living pulling and praying for you. |
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Post by Rachael on Apr 19, 2004 21:06:24 GMT -5
Yep - I thought that too, that it was purgatory. In purgatory, unlike hell, you have a chance of release, and going to heaven. One of the things that makes a difference is having the living pulling and praying for you. In this case, literally - Eve sent folks to pull Lindsey out, and I'm assuming the people on the outside will want to pull Gunn back, too. |
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Post by Laura on Apr 19, 2004 21:53:38 GMT -5
Nice job, Lee! You're right -- strip away our hearts, our motivations, and we're just shells of our former selves.
Though I have to say -- I was reminded of a comment by Cordy in S1 Five by Five: "Scratch the surface and what do you find? More surface."
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Post by Linda on Apr 19, 2004 23:53:59 GMT -5
From Lee's review
Hi Lee!
Miss you & your posts on the Main Board!
Just wanted to let you know that I really enjoyed your review! It gave me another angle from which to [re]watch the episode.
I will add, though, that I also agree with Rachael & Spring about the place being 'Burbatory instead of Burb!Hell. It just means there are still choices for the denizens, although, perhaps not great choices.
That being said, I think it adds even more urgency to your closing paragraph, which I took the liberty of pasting above: Gunn (& Lindsey before him & as you pointed out, all of us), I believe, still has the choice to not let them take his "dreams, desires, motivations" from him. They will do everything they can to convince him to give up, but he still has a choice to keep fighting.
<edit: OK the above doesn't quite make sense unless I mention that I think that the memories they have of 'Burbatory are **false** and temporary & are replaced by real memories whenever the door to the Wrath is open, which I think it would be for every torture session. From what Lindsey said, they can only undo you as much as you feel you deserve -- which is not something you would feel with the **false** memories.>
Also, I think that it is significant that the discussion that always triggers the trip to the basement is the naming of things underneath: Crust to mantle to outer core to inner core and then, if you take the kid's answer - nothing. If you take Lindsey's or Gunn's answer - the soft chewy center. I think someone will truly be in Hell when they agree with the kid that there is Nothing at their heart.
Thanks again, Lee.
Linda, who is in a silly mood and kinda likes 'Burbatory as a phrase -- although it seems vaguely Wednesdayish for some reason ...
P.S. I also wanted to add that your schedule: LOL
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Apr 20, 2004 3:14:58 GMT -5
Thinking, still, but one thing that I want to take issue with (it's come up several times in discussing this ep, and I keep forgetting to mention it): Lindsey wasn't in Hell. Gunn isn't (now) in Hell. It's a "holding area" - Purgatory. At least, according to Gunn's original explanation. It's where they keep you until they decide what to do with you. So, Suburbia isn't Hell, so much as Purgatory. Which, to my mind, might be worse. . .still mulling that one over. None of this detracts from the central theme of Lee's wonderful review, though - and I love this interpretation. Not all theologies have such a thing as purgatory, and not all consider hell to be where you end up forever. As I understand it eastern theologies based around reincarnation can also believe in hell because you do your time in hell then get reborn on Earth again when you are done paying what cant be paid here. Also they believe in multiple hells (each and every one appropriate for someone). So I figure that fits the Jossverse hells situation better than Christian eternal hells. Therefore the bad place Gunn is in could just as well be called a hell. It depends which theology you look at it through. |
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Apr 20, 2004 3:18:50 GMT -5
I will add, though, that I also agree with Rachael & Spring about the place being 'Burbatory instead of Burb!Hell. It just means there are still choices for the denizens, although, perhaps not great choices. but there arent any choices they can make under their own power, because they have the new life pasted over their brains and only do the things that allows them to do. Same every day. sounds like hell to me. actually I've only read one description of purgatory, a summary of Dante's version of it, and in purgatory the trick to getting out of every stage of it was like an answer to a riddle. You make choice different to the way you always made it on earth and bingo, new level. Since the burb people cannot make new choices because of the memory wipe, they couldnt do that even if it were the way out. so, not purgatory? your theory where they get their memory back and the door to the wrath opens every time they are in the basement... I see no evidence for that. If it worked that way the guys could have stayed and made a plan and waited for the next local day when the door would open again. but if it did work that way, if they could choose the fire instead of losing heart, that would be a nice little metaphor and would also make it purgatory with an available way out. But choosing to get mad instead of suffer (wrath instead of hollow) is a bit of an odd lesson to learn, from where I am. Choose to fight yes, but wrath is one of those seven deadly sins, the one opposed to kindness, so it being a way *out* of hell is a bit wrong. (I've also read descriptions of hells that are there just to teach a lesson. it is once again a question of definition) |
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Post by Cal on Apr 20, 2004 3:42:34 GMT -5
Interesting review, Lee. Not "mumbo jumbo" at all! This episode was all about "layers" and what lies underneath. Loved your interpretation of it all! Cool!  |
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Post by Linda on Apr 20, 2004 5:19:00 GMT -5
but there arent any choices they can make under their own power, because they have the new life pasted over their brains and only do the things that allows them to do. Same every day. sounds like hell to me. actually I've only read one description of purgatory, a summary of Dante's version of it, and in purgatory the trick to getting out of every stage of it was like an answer to a riddle. You make choice different to the way you always made it on earth and bingo, new level. Since the burb people cannot make new choices because of the memory wipe, they couldnt do that even if it were the way out. so, not purgatory? your theory where they get their memory back and the door to the wrath opens every time they are in the basement... I see no evidence for that. If it worked that way the guys could have stayed and made a plan and waited for the next local day when the door would open again. but if it did work that way, if they could choose the fire instead of losing heart, that would be a nice little metaphor and would also make it purgatory with an available way out. But choosing to get mad instead of suffer (wrath instead of hollow) is a bit of an odd lesson to learn, from where I am. Choose to fight yes, but wrath is one of those seven deadly sins, the one opposed to kindness, so it being a way *out* of hell is a bit wrong. (I've also read descriptions of hells that are there just to teach a lesson. it is once again a question of definition) Hi be! Thanks for your thoughts on my post. I guess I was coming at this from a slightly different storytelling/metaphoric angle rather than from a specific description of Hell vs. Purgatory or Wrath = Anger. These are the basic ideas that I was working from: Gunn is feeling VERY guilty. Unbearably guilty. (His street clothes may be interpreted as a rejection of his W&H upgrade -- his very expensive W&H upgrade -- and possibly a denial of the sin he committed, rather than a true return to who he was. 'Cause he's not that person anymore.) The fire is called The Wrath. The name implies some sort of judgement to me -- as in Wrath of God. The way is closed if you forget what got you there (IMO, who you REALLY are) in the first place. This is something that Gunn actually says: "The door will close when I forget." This is the heart of our different interpretations, I think: I believe that the necklace wearer chooses to forget his "sins" and live the suburban life -- a message that IMO was explicitly spelled out by Spike in the first scene of the episode: we all put on a happy face, while cheating & stealing & trying not to think about the third of the world that is starving to death. Also, Lindsey seems to remember everything once he's out of the 'Burb dimension. And he tells Angel that you can only be undone as much as you believe you deserve. So there must be some measure of your true self involved in the basement torture. And THIS is the diabolical W&H part: you endure much less pain if you let go of your heart & deny your soft, chewy center (implication that they are chomping on your heart, ick.) I think this is why you can escape through The Wrath (fire & judgement) -- atonement. No atonement (escape) unless you remember who you are and the wrong choices you've made and are willing to live with the torturous consequences. I'm hoping that the above makes some sense, since it's getting late over here in Hawaii. I may have to edit it when I look at it tomorrow morning after I've gotten some sleep. <edited WAY more than once and still not quite what I meant to say. Hmm...> Linda, whose original post on this thread is proof that she should not try to post & run from work ... and whose current post is proof that she should not try to post late at night either... |
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Post by LeeHollins on Apr 20, 2004 8:45:48 GMT -5
Thinking, still, but one thing that I want to take issue with (it's come up several times in discussing this ep, and I keep forgetting to mention it): Lindsey wasn't in Hell. Gunn isn't (now) in Hell. It's a "holding area" - Purgatory. At least, according to Gunn's original explanation. It's where they keep you until they decide what to do with you. So, Suburbia isn't Hell, so much as Purgatory. Which, to my mind, might be worse. . .still mulling that one over. None of this detracts from the central theme of Lee's wonderful review, though - and I love this interpretation. Thanks, Rachael. And you are completely right - it was never said that it was Hell and in fact, that it was Purgatory. I wasn't watching the episode when I was writing the review (maybe next time I should, huh?) so thanks for mentioning this.  I have a question about Purgatory. We Methodists do not believe in Purgatory so I've always been a bit... unclear? confused? on the subject. I get that it is a "holding area" but is it a bad thing? By that I mean, is someone in Purgatory being tortured (or what have you) or is he or she just in limbo? Is it a bad place or is it more a neutral place? |
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Post by LeeHollins on Apr 20, 2004 8:49:28 GMT -5
MWAAAAA. Lee: this is just why I miss being on board when you've already been and gone! I love your insight into the episode and the characters, and you have enhanced my enjoyment of this episode! Thank you! Shells....it's still all about shells, isn't it? Lindsey, trapped in burb-Hell becomes a shell. He leaves, and now Gunn is a shell.... Isn't it ironic that, in W&H's purgatory, there's a son to see and love everyday, and in Angel's reality, the son is gone.....and only he (and Eve) remember..... And Fred? She exists only in Wes' memory, in his dreams - or are they nightmares now, because she's gone? And...in his dreams, she tells him to look deeper... And Wes' dream-joke: I think that's Wes' subconscious telling him that there's something he's forgotten.....and it's gonna pull at him till he unearths the secret Angel's been hiding...Underneath..... Makd, my woman, what's going on? Thanks so much! And I am totally kicking myself for not more fully expanding the idea and incorporating all the other characters because in a sense, they are all shells of who they used to be. I was talking about this with a friend yesterday and she mentioned that and I was like, "Damnit!! Should've mentioned that!" Oh well. Ooh, good point about the son in Purgatory - never even thought about that! I am SO ready for some secrets to come out! (don't know if they will but damn, I'm ready if they do!!) |
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