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Post by LeeHollins on Apr 20, 2004 8:52:47 GMT -5
Yep - I thought that too, that it was purgatory. In purgatory, unlike hell, you have a chance of release, and going to heaven. One of the things that makes a difference is having the living pulling and praying for you. And I see that Spring has answered my question. *points below* So you can leave Purgatory and either enter Heaven or Hell? Gotcha.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 20, 2004 9:05:40 GMT -5
but there arent any choices they can make under their own power, because they have the new life pasted over their brains and only do the things that allows them to do. Same every day. sounds like hell to me. actually I've only read one description of purgatory, a summary of Dante's version of it, and in purgatory the trick to getting out of every stage of it was like an answer to a riddle. You make choice different to the way you always made it on earth and bingo, new level. Since the burb people cannot make new choices because of the memory wipe, they couldnt do that even if it were the way out. so, not purgatory? your theory where they get their memory back and the door to the wrath opens every time they are in the basement... I see no evidence for that. If it worked that way the guys could have stayed and made a plan and waited for the next local day when the door would open again. but if it did work that way, if they could choose the fire instead of losing heart, that would be a nice little metaphor and would also make it purgatory with an available way out. But choosing to get mad instead of suffer (wrath instead of hollow) is a bit of an odd lesson to learn, from where I am. Choose to fight yes, but wrath is one of those seven deadly sins, the one opposed to kindness, so it being a way *out* of hell is a bit wrong. (I've also read descriptions of hells that are there just to teach a lesson. it is once again a question of definition) Some thoughts: True- the meaning of purgatory/hell varying with type of belief - but I think I am safe in assuming Lee was going with the traditional Christian interpretation, and actually, I think I'm safe in believing Joss & Co were as well . What I'm probably not safe in assuming is that what I learned in 12 years of Catholic schooling represents the most wide-spread interpretation, even amongst Chrisitians. But that is what I was going with. Purgatory was a place you could get out of - the details of my catechism lessons are so fuzzy, but my memory says that the redemption depended on the seriousness of the sins that got you there, your own remorse and level of suffering in comparison, and the outside prayers (indulgences) of others. The guys couldn't make a plan to stay there, could they? I mean, they were badly outnumbered and everyone was shooting at them and they had to get out of there. Walking through the fire . . . we've seen this in the Jossverse before as the road to redemption, I'm thinking.
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Post by raenstorm on Apr 20, 2004 9:09:30 GMT -5
Very nice review, Lee! I actually think what you took from it coincides with what others have taken. The SP are ripping out Lindsey's insides day after day and they're doing that to Angel as well... It' not just the corruption of being at W&H and doing their work which goes against the work he was doing before, meaning compromising with evil instead of defeating it (changing his insides to match their requirements) but also tearing his team/his heart apart.
So, umm, hey do you just get a new heart every day or do they just take out one piece of your heart for your daily sacrifice??
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Apr 20, 2004 11:07:47 GMT -5
Thanks for your thoughts on my post. I guess I was coming at this from a slightly different storytelling/metaphoric angle rather than from a specific description of Hell vs. Purgatory or Wrath = Anger. snipped for space when you phrase it like that I guess it works. It still isnt what I see in the episode but I see how you see it, if that makes sense.
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Post by LadyDi on Apr 20, 2004 11:46:56 GMT -5
What got to me about Lindsay's heart being cut out day after day...the Aztec demon in Numero Cinco was feasting on the hearts of heroes. Spike caught the poetry of it to kill the thing (going after its heart). Logically, Spike's heart would also be 'dried-up' and 'gnarly' like Angel's, but I can't imagine it that way. I was kinda relieved he was still incorporeal at the time. Poor Gunn! I can't/don't want to imagine what his torure will be.
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Post by Linda on Apr 20, 2004 17:10:48 GMT -5
snipped for space when you phrase it like that I guess it works. It still isnt what I see in the episode but I see how you see it, if that makes sense. Hi be! I guess I should have done some lurking on the Main Board last night, since I did not read your 7 Deadly Sins post before I posted. I haven't had a chance to have a think on it yet, though, since I am at work (where I told myself I wouldn't compose any think-y posts anymore.) I admit that I may be over-connecting the story elements to the many, many science fiction short stories that equate suburbanites with pod-people. Linda, who will have to think about this at a later time, darn it ...
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Apr 20, 2004 20:33:01 GMT -5
Lee, thank you for your great review! All that heart ripping outage..er...whatever. I keep thinking about Angel's fear that his heart is a dried up walnut - a shell. It makes me afraid he will sacrifice himself to retrieve Gunn, thinking that he has no heart to remove, thus can't be tortured - but we know he DOES have a heart, maybe it's not BEATING but still...
also - purgatory...waiting place - where nothing goes forward - thus Lindsey and then Gunn doomed to repeat the day again and again - the same getting of the paper, reviewing homework with the child, and the horror of going down underneath to be tortured...no hope of it changing, until the Sr. Partners decide to do so.
Joss really has a talent for giving us the images of our deepest fears, doesn't he?
Can't wait for tomorrow night...
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Apr 20, 2004 20:34:19 GMT -5
So, umm, hey do you just get a new heart every day or do they just take out one piece of your heart for your daily sacrifice?? Looked like a bunch of whole hearts on the basement floor. ..again with the no going forward...just repeating. and here's a prophecy that seems to have NOTHING to do with anything right now but they always always end up being meaningful... In Numero Cinco: ANGEL I'm not the one in a mask standing in a cemetery in the middle of the night. NUMBER 5 No. But you will be.
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Post by Lola m on Apr 22, 2004 21:28:22 GMT -5
Very nice job, Lee. Had to quote your entire second to last paragraph because I just really really liked it.
"After all, are we not our motivations and desires? Are we not what is “underneath” us, what is inside of us? Our dreams, desires, motivations, that is who we are. That is what drives us--whether it be a desire to cure cancer or a desire to screw over the Senior Partners. Without these desires, what is left? Nothing. When you lose your motivations, you lose everything that makes you “you.” On the outside we are all the same but it’s what’s under the surface that makes us unique. And when that is stripped away, WE are stripped away. We become...well, we become Lindsey. Sure, on the outside everything may look okay or heck, even perfect, but inside...nothing but a shell. When your heart is taken away, the best of you is taken away and what’s left is only a distant memory of the person you once were. And perhaps that is the single most torturous act one can do to another--leaving a person only a shell of what he or she once was."
You got it all here - nicely summed up. The shells - stripping away the layers of the shells to what's underneath. And what is underneath, what is inside each of our beloved fang gang buddies? Nothing? Or something? Something like a heart. Each of the gang is getting their layers peeled away and we'll all see what is at their core.
Lola
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Pet
S'cubie
Mmm..Thinkin' of you, Pet!!
Posts: 123
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Post by Pet on Apr 23, 2004 22:55:15 GMT -5
Okay Scubies:
Here’s my rant. I followed Spike to Angel because of-- the fictional vampiric back-story; I loved Spike’s character (vicious, fierce, sweet, sexy, sorrowful, vulnerable, longing, sarcastic, flip, impatient, pouty , proud, protective, observant, obsessive, vain, high threshold for pain, caring, bright, intelligent, funny, secretive, deceptive, seductive, persistent), Spike’s ME story arc, love/redemption compellingness without a soul; finally (by Whedon demand) with a soul, and growth within the Buffyverse; the Spuffy; his conflict with Angel and the possible growth of Spike’s character and redemptive manifestations within the “Angelverse” .
I saw movement in my goals up until Damage in Angel TS. Maybe “A Hole in the World”. It has been all down hill since then. I gotta tell ya. They have done nothing with Spike. They make him an unaware, fighting automaton that either is Angel’s muscle or is Valeria’s pet, just because he’s decided he wants to work with W&H out of the blue because he’s seen a hole in the world. I’m sick of it. I will not follow Angel to hell or anywhere else. I don’t like ATS. I have gotten to know the Angel character and okay he’s cute but he’s not Spike. I don’t want to know him. Sometime he is entertaining, but I don’t give a s…. about his anything. I want Spike, period. I don’t think Angel can make it anywhere. (Although S1,2,3 was okay-Conner is creepy) Not without the real Spike. And if they are not willing to bring back the real Spike, bad ass kicking, “not I saved the world proud Spike”, It’s for shit.
Now for Spuffy. Okay. We know Spike is forever Buffy. He said so. So she is forever in his heart. She said she loved him. We know that Whedon is a weasel and he cut that out of the ATS replay. We will never see it on ATS. So, on ATS Spike has to move on. But, Spike needs to be loved and to love. He said it, unique as he is. We know this. Let’s give him some second best. Even Harmony for God’s sakes, as unique as she is, needs love (Spike?). She said she loves him. Hmmm. Is she of the Aurelius line? A question for you Nan?! Since it’s all make believe. Geez, let it be Angel huggin’ him, okay. That would work. He just needs a hug. Did ya see Spike in the last epi? Also, someone needs to rumple his hair a little, ya know. It’s lookin’ a little more helmet like again.
James Marsters is Awesome!!!!. We can’t let his talent just die.
I am a Scubie because of BtVS, which I still watch, over and over again. Thanks to DVD. (I so need a life. Spring I will be dialoging with you soon on the site. It’s the one place I think I can get what Mick Jager says.) By the way, I saw Crush today, awww, Spike’s face when Buffy locked him out almost made me cry.
Angel be damned. (No offense Nan but I have lost my muse.) If I have to vote for Angel for Spike, I will only do so if Spike is represented in a manner that respectful to his talent.
I will post this so others get it also. Luv yall.
Pet.
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