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Post by William the Bloody on May 3, 2004 9:54:54 GMT -5
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Post by Lola m on May 3, 2004 13:29:52 GMT -5
Clever, clever, makd! The funny lines, the seemingly off-tangent rambly bits that are really still right on target (I’d apologize, but it would be awkward) – and always, always coming back to “who are you now?”. And underneath, we also always come back to what’s underneath.
Oh yeah, these episodes are definitely getting more complex and deeper, harder to really understand in just one viewing. Love how Joss has taken so well to the WB’s orders requests for simpler, non-arc, monster of the week episodes. ‘Cuz he does that kind of thing so well.
Liked how you worked through the characters and where each of them is now, who each of them is now. And particularly liked the links you made with each of them and Spike’s arc. Like you, I am enjoying the ride we are getting with Spike in this episode. I don’t agree with those that think he is being used purely as comic relief. I think we are seeing Spike finding a place, learning and adapting. I noticed the protective stance by Angel too, and I loved the scene in the lab with Wes as well as how much he was enjoying fighting with Illyria.
As you said right toward the end of your review:
The quotes you picked perfectly reflect the questions we are all asking about where we all are now and where we’re heading for these final shows of the season.
(And, dang it, you went and got me all misty eyed at the end there. What a great group – what a great journey Joss and crew have taken us on! **snurffle**)
Lola
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on May 3, 2004 13:39:08 GMT -5
Oh, neat! Angel as Lord Shiva, counterpart to Illyria, I love it, you're absolutely spot on.
I'm also loving the Spikanalysis.
And "He’s getting felt up as a corporate puppet", ;D!
Thank you!
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Post by SpringSummers on May 3, 2004 14:18:35 GMT -5
Oh, neat! Angel as Lord Shiva, counterpart to Illyria, I love it, you're absolutely spot on. I'm also loving the Spikanalysis. And "He’s getting felt up as a corporate puppet", ;D! Thank you! Yes - loved the way you used words in this, makd - apocalypting? I was smiling already. On Angel integrating his two selves - You mention that he is already doing this, and my thought is that he is kinda, only he hasn't realized that yet, and he's going to have to consciously realize it to control it, or the demon will take over. I definitely don't agree with the notion that the integration has already taken place off screen. He isn't tapping into his Inner Demon as a resource, his Inner Demon is tapping into him. It's kind of the opposite of what Spike went through. Spike had this unacknowledged goodness in him that he tries to ignore and deny. He disdains it. But the chip and Buffy love let it grow. But it is all screwed up. He doesn't really understand what is happening to him and he isn't controlling it. He's hurting others, he's getting hurt and he's a mess . . . it isn't until the drama of the attempted rape that he realizes that the goodness is a real part of him, and he must accept it fully to be whole and in control, and he goes to get his soul. Now, he's openly fighting for the good guys, no longer denying that part of himself. For Angel, he has an inner demon he denies. His immersion in W&H has let it begin to grow. He's a mess right now. Something - and I kind of suspect that without a Season 6, this won't get resolved - but something has to happen to send him - not to Africa to get his soul, but to his "basement" to get his demon . . . consciously, willfully. He needs to take full responsibility for his Angelus and everything Angelus has ever done - and then he can truly harness that power. He has to stop being the Angel who says to Wes, "sorry for what happened, but that was Angelus who did that, not me." Then he'll be fully Angel, and as you said, we'll still love him. And he'll love himself.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on May 3, 2004 16:16:45 GMT -5
*hug* Mary, I'm all teary now....what a lovely tumble of words - all with meaning.
And my heart hurts now.
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Post by KMInfinity on May 3, 2004 21:50:07 GMT -5
Loved the review...
and now I have to go and get out Sticky Fingers, and listen to "Wild Horses" and think about obsessive love and Spuffy and how I am just........furious.....that this kind of show is gone and dreck continues....
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Post by Karen on May 3, 2004 22:19:11 GMT -5
And let the weeping and wailing begin! What a fantastic experience Buffy/Angel has been for me. I am so happy to have found you guys through the fantasy that is the JW mind. You have no idea how much my life has been enriched. Great review and lovely sentiments so well expressed, makd. Thank you so much! And here's hoping that the S'cubie experience continues to be fed by the future storytelling of JW and family! So many stories left to be told about Angel. I hope that we do get to see them. How this season will end - I have no idea. But I think that the way Angel and family copes with will be the key somehow - in adapting, compromising, and accepting the changes that come with living.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on May 4, 2004 1:26:26 GMT -5
By the end of this episode, Angel is grabbing the power, making the hard decisions, and going with Amanda’s free choice, rather than making the choice for her.
It's not free choice if it is not informed choice. Gunn got interupted before he could finish saying 'sacrifice', she didnt know about the uring and panda meat, maybe if someone explained all the clauses without the foreign language she would make a different choice. That is part of what experts do- translate the technical language to the words that will be understood by the client. Of course in this case 'client' is the problem, because the bad guys are the client.
And maybe Angel shouldn't be distracted by the small stuff, but the correct solution in a HUGE and *multitasking* corporation is to delegate the explaining things bit to someone else.
Angel was asked not to represent either side in this contract, but to *witness* it. To stand by and let things happen. Indeed to 'sign as witness for the firm', as in being a representative of the Wolf, Ram and Hart. Also firm as the specific word, not business as used earlier. Like standing firm? But he isn't. The firm, W&H, has managed to stay unchanged here. Angel has been weak and changed to fit.
Witness is not Champion.
Doyle: “I mean think of all the daytime people you could help between 9 and 5.”
Angel: “They have help. The whole world is designed for them, so much that they have no idea what goes on around them after dark. They don’t see the weak ones lost in the night, - or the things that prey on them. And if I join them, maybe I’d stop seeing, too.”
He has been living in the sun times for a while now- and either he has stopped seeing, or worse, he still sees but he chooses not to do anything about it.
Her rescue of Gunn, which opened the episode, was swift, clean, surgical.
er, not so much. Hamilton's little account of the damage, remember? Once she *found* Gunn it was pretty quick, but she went through 11 torture units first.
you go from listing the ways that Illyria does control time to saying that she cannot. is a bit unclear what your meaning is.
watch and compass, time and space yes, but walkie talkie is staying connected despite changes in time and space, and Angel in turning off his end, shutting out his team as he focuses on a problem, made that impossible. no walk and talk at the same time? know where you are or where your going? physics. (i've been awake too long)
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Post by Matthew on May 4, 2004 2:17:58 GMT -5
Beautifully done review, makd. I particularly love the insights you brought about how Spike has dealt with a god before, and thereby knows how one thinks.. brilliant! Did I miss you posting this on the main board, or were you saving this up for just this purpose? The same on the pointing out his understanding of Wes in the "If any part of her were still Buffy" thing. Made me sit up and go "duh!" at myself. Also: on Lorne's Fedora? Not only did it go fetchingly with his skin, his code name of "Secret Demon" made me think that Edlund, known for his work on "the Tick" (Another great cancelled series... in both incarnations) is giving a nod to "Secret Squirrel" a secret agent type that wore a purple fedora (granted, down over his eyes, with convenient eyeholes cut out) and a tan trenchcoat, in a cartoon that had a renaissance (or reconasence, as Buffy would put it) on "The Cartoon Network" (I so need to dig out my Chigago manual of style so I can actually figure out whatinhell is s'posed to be capitalized, or put in quote marks.. sigh.. ) a few years back. I echo, slightly, Bec'liz's confusion on your statments about Illyria and time, though, as she appeared to me to be out of control, very billy-pilgrimish, the entire time. So to speak. And it's "y'all": a one-syllable word that rhymes with "awl". Sheesh. Yankees. No! Don't kill me!!!! Pleeeeasse!!! And you speak for me too, on appreciation for the talents and efforts of the people behind Angel and Buffy and Firefly. Your tribute touched me greatly. -Matthew
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Post by Cal on May 4, 2004 6:32:21 GMT -5
Thank you, Makd for a wonderful, thoughtful, moving review. I still can't accept that this is all going to end in just three more episodes. My heart is breaking...
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Post by SpringSummers on May 4, 2004 7:42:07 GMT -5
By the end of this episode, Angel is grabbing the power, making the hard decisions, and going with Amanda’s free choice, rather than making the choice for her. It's not free choice if it is not informed choice. Gunn got interupted before he could finish saying 'sacrifice', she didnt know about the uring and panda meat, maybe if someone explained all the clauses without the foreign language she would make a different choice. That is part of what experts do- translate the technical language to the words that will be understood by the client. Of course in this case 'client' is the problem, because the bad guys are the client. And maybe Angel shouldn't be distracted by the small stuff, but the correct solution in a HUGE and *multitasking* corporation is to delegate the explaining things bit to someone else. Angel was asked not to represent either side in this contract, but to *witness* it. To stand by and let things happen. Indeed to 'sign as witness for the firm', as in being a representative of the Wolf, Ram and Hart. Also firm as the specific word, not business as used earlier. Like standing firm? But he isn't. The firm, W&H, has managed to stay unchanged here. Angel has been weak and changed to fit. Witness is not Champion. Doyle: “I mean think of all the daytime people you could help between 9 and 5.”
Angel: “They have help. The whole world is designed for them, so much that they have no idea what goes on around them after dark. They don’t see the weak ones lost in the night, - or the things that prey on them. And if I join them, maybe I’d stop seeing, too.”He has been living in the sun times for a while now- and either he has stopped seeing, or worse, he still sees but he chooses not to do anything about it. Her rescue of Gunn, which opened the episode, was swift, clean, surgical.er, not so much. Hamilton's little account of the damage, remember? Once she *found* Gunn it was pretty quick, but she went through 11 torture units first. you go from listing the ways that Illyria does control time to saying that she cannot. is a bit unclear what your meaning is. watch and compass, time and space yes, but walkie talkie is staying connected despite changes in time and space, and Angel in turning off his end, shutting out his team as he focuses on a problem, made that impossible. no walk and talk at the same time? know where you are or where your going? physics. (i've been awake too long) Though I think the Mom would have gone ahead with the baby-sale, even with all the info in front of her, I'm with you on this, becca. Still not OK for Angel to witness it, on the idea that "well, it's her free choice." Becca, I read your thought on the Angel Investigation thread about Spike's comment: "It's not murder if you say yes." You correctly pointed out that Spike would know what it is: It's a sacrifice. And that thought carries through to the scenario with the child. This child will be born, will live without any real love to the age of 13, and will be killed - and he won't be given any choice at all. He won't have said yes, and it will be murder. The ep had a lot of references to knowledge and consent. And it fits with the robot/slave stuff we've been seeing all Season, and the empowerment themes we see in the Jossverse. Who speaks for those who cannot speak? Who helps the helpless, and who is more helpless than a baby being sold? Who empowers the powerless? Angel is dealing with his own "I'm the Chosen One" superiority complex problems. It's not easy, being Angel.
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Post by Karen on May 4, 2004 11:23:32 GMT -5
When Hamilton kicked Eve off the team and invalidated her contract and made her mortal, he said that she had forgotten about the "Big Picture". She fell in love - and worked on her own agenda.
Angel is concerned about the "Big Picture" now. He told Gunn that he needed him to remember the "big picture". I can't remember the exact quote, but Gunn disagreed.
Who is right here? What is the right thing to do?
IMO looking at the "big picture" and ignoring the "next step" is the wrong choice.
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Post by SpringSummers on May 4, 2004 11:41:35 GMT -5
When Hamilton kicked Eve off the team and invalidated her contract and made her mortal, he said that she had forgotten about the "Big Picture". She fell in love - and worked on her own agenda. Angel is concerned about the "Big Picture" now. He told Gunn that he needed him to remember the "big picture". I can't remember the exact quote, but Gunn disagreed. Who is right here? What is the right thing to do? IMO looking at the "big picture" and ignoring the "next step" is the wrong choice. My confused thoughts: Well - it seems to me you've got to see the trees, and the forest. The danger in only looking only at the Big Picture is that you aren't realizing that the Big Pic is made up of the smaller pics, and you're not paying attention to the details making up the Big Pic - and suddenly, you've got a Big Pic you don't really want, and you don't know why. The danger in looking at just the details is that you may not realize the Big Pic you are building, and how things are fitting together to build a whole. And suddenly, you've got a Big Pic you don't want. It's about doing both, staying aware of both, then making your conscious choice.
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Post by Karen on May 4, 2004 11:52:54 GMT -5
My confused thoughts: Well - it seems to me you've got to see the trees, and the forest. The danger in only looking only at the Big Picture is that you aren't realizing that the Big Pic is made up of the smaller pics, and you're not paying attention to the details making up the Big Pic - and suddenly, you've got a Big Pic you don't really want, and you don't know why. The danger in looking at just the details is that you may not realize the Big Pic you are building, and how things are fitting together to build a whole. And suddenly, you've got a Big Pic you don't want. It's about doing both, staying aware of both, then making your conscious choice. Ah ha! Takes a team then, right? And Illyria might just be the fifth element. (Just for the record. My waffling is not a sign of weakness, but of growth and flexibility.)
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Post by LadyDi on May 4, 2004 12:00:55 GMT -5
Loved the review, pet, but you've got to quit obsessing over Spike's look. That duster's d*mn expensive! Personally, I love Spike's look. Leave the inconsequential changes to Angel....Oops, did I say that out loud?
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