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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Aug 20, 2003 5:56:55 GMT -5
In the immortal words of our arch-technopagan, "Let the discussion begin!"
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Post by Kerrie on Aug 20, 2003 6:29:06 GMT -5
Once again this was a thought-provoking analysis by Spring. The thing that caught my attention was the statement that Buffy is never wrong. I have been thinking about this recently as it has some bearing on Buffy's longevity and her role as judge, jury and executioner. It is vital that Buffy's instincts make it so that she is never wrong, but do you think that is generally true for all Slayers or is it one of the ways that Buffy is unique. I think in the What's my Line commentary, JW makes some commentary when comparing Buffy and Kendra that Buffy follows her instincts, which are correct, but I wonder whether that has been maintained throughout the series. I also wonder whether this is part of the feminist message: females should trust in their instincts?
This line of thought also raises the issue fo choosing friends as well as recognising enemies. Buffy's instincts lead her to some very good and useful friends. Friends to which she owes her life on more than one occassion.
I will be honest the whole thing reminds me of a line out of Tony Tanner's review of Jane Austen's Mansfield Park that the thing that is special about Fanny Price is that she is never, ever wrong. It sounds like such a burden. It also raises questions about Joyce who criticized Buffy at least once (I don't know which episode but during season 3) because her slaying was fruitless - Buffy had no plan and she was not winning. But maybe season 7 answered that criticism.
Oh well you have got to the end of this meandering, wondering post so - well done you! ;D Perhaps it would have been better for me to have slept on the analysis before responding. I will be kinder in future and do that.
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Post by SpringSummers on Aug 20, 2003 15:13:18 GMT -5
Once again this was a thought-provoking analysis by Spring. The thing that caught my attention was the statement that Buffy is never wrong. I have been thinking about this recently as it has some bearing on Buffy's longevity and her role as judge, jury and executioner. It is vital that Buffy's instincts make it so that she is never wrong, but do you think that is generally true for all Slayers or is it one of the ways that Buffy is unique. I think in the What's my Line commentary, JW makes some commentary when comparing Buffy and Kendra that Buffy follows her instincts, which are correct, but I wonder whether that has been maintained throughout the series. I also wonder whether this is part of the feminist message: females should trust in their instincts? This line of thought also raises the issue fo choosing friends as well as recognising enemies. Buffy's instincts lead her to some very good and useful friends. Friends to which she owes her life on more than one occassion. I will be honest the whole thing reminds me of a line out of Tony Tanner's review of Jane Austen's Mansfield Park that the thing that is special about Fanny Price is that she is never, ever wrong. It sounds like such a burden. It also raises questions about Joyce who criticized Buffy at least once (I don't know which episode but during season 3) because her slaying was fruitless - Buffy had no plan and she was not winning. But maybe season 7 answered that criticism. Oh well you have got to the end of this meandering, wondering post so - well done you! ;D Perhaps it would have been better for me to have slept on the analysis before responding. I will be kinder in future and do that. Kerrie - I really appreciate your feedback, whether you are tired or wide-awake. I wouldn't go so far as to say Buffy is "never wrong" - what I meant to convey is that her Slayer instincts are never wrong. Buffy herself has definitely been known to be wrong in other ways - and in the case of Angel, she actually ignored cues that might have warned her of the danger of getting too involved with him. Of course, in the case of Spike, she fought against her own instincts in a different way. Glad you liked the analysis. |
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Aug 20, 2003 15:15:37 GMT -5
This particular analysis really 'hit me' I guess, especially your ideas about being isolated and alone - and your noting how Jonathan made sure he gave people the 'strokes' they needed. He was an excellent leader in many ways. He was always there, seemed emotionally available , was a genius in so many ways, everyone loved him and he seemed to love them, but he was still alone. He saw himself as not special in reality, so created himself as someone else in order to be loved. Which of course, means he really could never be...
Superstar is one of my favorites - I've always seen it as charming and fun and the make-believe aspect was one of the things I liked most. I don't think I'll see it the same way now....but thank you for the insights anyway Spring.
And something I'll always hold against Joss...killing Jonathan before he ever got that love he wanted. Or at least, before he know about it. Cause I loved him. RIP, liittle superstar.
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Post by SpringSummers on Aug 20, 2003 15:44:07 GMT -5
This particular analysis really 'hit me' I guess, especially your ideas about being isolated and alone - and your noting how Jonathan made sure he gave people the 'strokes' they needed. He was an excellent leader in many ways. He was always there, seemed emotionally available , was a genius in so many ways, everyone loved him and he seemed to love them, but he was still alone. He saw himself as not special in reality, so created himself as someone else in order to be loved. Which of course, means he really could never be... Superstar is one of my favorites - I've always seen it as charming and fun and the make-believe aspect was one of the things I liked most. I don't think I'll see it the same way now....but thank you for the insights anyway Spring. And something I'll always hold against Joss...killing Jonathan before he ever got that love he wanted. Or at least, before he know about it. Cause I loved him. RIP, liittle superstar. Yes - I missed it really, but that's a really good point about how, in changing who he was so that everyone would love him, he ensures that no one will ever really be able to love him for who he really is. Notice the stereotypical nature of his lovers - you know they wouldn't still be with him without the money and fame (and sure enough, a point is made to tell us that they "moved out" after the spell was broken). The episode is charming and fun - it's a lot of things, and is also a fave of mine. I hated to see Jonathan killed also! Poor Jonathan! Even at his worst, he could never truly let himself be evil. It seemed so unnecessary to kill him off . . . though I guess two nerds still hanging around would have been one too many? I was glad, though, to hear Jonathan talk as though he had made peace with his past and himself - even if he did die only moments later. |
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Post by Karen on Sept 3, 2003 10:34:39 GMT -5
Yes - I missed it really, but that's a really good point about how, in changing who he was so that everyone would love him, he ensures that no one will ever really be able to love him for who he really is. Notice the stereotypical nature of his lovers - you know they wouldn't still be with him without the money and fame (and sure enough, a point is made to tell us that they "moved out" after the spell was broken). The episode is charming and fun - it's a lot of things, and is also a fave of mine. I hated to see Jonathan killed also! Poor Jonathan! Even at his worst, he could never truly let himself be evil. It seemed so unnecessary to kill him off . . . though I guess two nerds still hanging around would have been one too many? I was glad, though, to hear Jonathan talk as though he had made peace with his past and himself - even if he did die only moments later. When you make peace with your past in Jossverse - look out - you might be history! You know, I didn't really like this episode the first time I saw it - it was .... so different! It seemed out of step. Of course, now it's one of my favorites - there is so much in it. And I see so very much more, thanks to you! Reading your analysis, Spring, only makes me realize all over again how much I am going to miss Buffy. I love Angel, but it never had the depth of meaning for me like always Buffy did. Great and thorough analysis. I was like - gee, "I didn't think of that", and "boy, is that ever true" throughout the whole thing. You should get a royalty for each ping. Your reference to how the twins emphasized Jonathon's aloneness - well, wow - so good! So true - And is so true, because we all know, that life doesn't *end* well - so why dwell on it? Time is an illusion, all we really have is the here and now. Jossverse has many references to time in both BtVS and AtS. Even in AtS (I Will Remember You), one of the Oracles said - "I like Time. There's so little and so much of it." Anyway, I think watching Buffy has made me understand this about life. You better live for the now, because tomorrow really never comes. And that's ok, because life is a gift really, no matter how long it is. Thanks, again, Spring! |
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 3, 2003 15:51:28 GMT -5
When you make peace with your past in Jossverse - look out - you might be history! You know, I didn't really like this episode the first time I saw it - it was .... so different! It seemed out of step. Of course, now it's one of my favorites - there is so much in it. And I see so very much more, thanks to you! Reading your analysis, Spring, only makes me realize all over again how much I am going to miss Buffy. I love Angel, but it never had the depth of meaning for me like always Buffy did. Great and thorough analysis. I was like - gee, "I didn't think of that", and "boy, is that ever true" throughout the whole thing. You should get a royalty for each ping. Your reference to how the twins emphasized Jonathon's aloneness - well, wow - so good! So true - And is so true, because we all know, that live doesn't *end* well - so why dwell on it? Time is an illusion, all we really have is the here and now. Jossverse has many references to time in both BtVS and AtS. Even in AtS (I Will Remember You), one of the Oracles said - "I like Time. There's so little and so much of it." Anyway, I think watching Buffy has made me understand this about life. You better live for the now, because tomorrow really never comes. And that's ok, because life is a gift really, no matter how long it is. Thanks, again, Spring! Thanks for the feedback, Sandy. I really appreciate it. I especially appreciate that quote from the Oracles on AtS - I had never heard it before. I love it. Yes, there is no show like our Buffy show. Not even AtS. Sigh. |
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Post by lilac43 on Jun 19, 2007 15:33:10 GMT -5
Watching Superstar for the umpteenth time, I realized how much I have always been annoyed about Jonathan going 'bad' in season 6. I understand what it is like not to have real friends, but I've never been evil. Buffy showed him, twice at least, real friendship. Why is it that these people, like Faith and Jonathan, can't accept that friendship for what it is and let their lives change for the better because of it? I guess that wouldn't make for a very good show, but I was disappointed that Jonathan turned bad, that he was okay messing with Buffy and her life in Season 6, after telling her that she wasn't a sock in his sock puppet play, she ended up being one in Season 6 in the episode....I can't remember the name, but the one with the mummy hand. You know.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jun 19, 2007 19:05:29 GMT -5
Watching Superstar for the umpteenth time, I realized how much I have always been annoyed about Jonathan going 'bad' in season 6. I understand what it is like not to have real friends, but I've never been evil. Buffy showed him, twice at least, real friendship. Why is it that these people, like Faith and Jonathan, can't accept that friendship for what it is and let their lives change for the better because of it? I guess that wouldn't make for a very good show, but I was disappointed that Jonathan turned bad, that he was okay messing with Buffy and her life in Season 6, after telling her that she wasn't a sock in his sock puppet play, she ended up being one in Season 6 in the episode....I can't remember the name, but the one with the mummy hand. You know. Interesting connection, about how Buffy DID become a "sock" in Jonathan's sock puppet play - so true. I was sad that Jonathan went "bad," even if he did turn out to be the "least bad" of the bad. Jonathan did get some love and friendship from Buffy - but I guess the idea was that those isolated incidents weren't really enough. He had a hole in his life that he kept trying to fill in various unhealthy ways . . . he never really resolved it, or understood it, until Season 7, and then, well . . . he was history! I did really like the character and was sorry to see him get killed off as he did. |
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Post by Lola m on Jun 21, 2007 19:51:31 GMT -5
Watching Superstar for the umpteenth time, I realized how much I have always been annoyed about Jonathan going 'bad' in season 6. I understand what it is like not to have real friends, but I've never been evil. Buffy showed him, twice at least, real friendship. Why is it that these people, like Faith and Jonathan, can't accept that friendship for what it is and let their lives change for the better because of it? I guess that wouldn't make for a very good show, but I was disappointed that Jonathan turned bad, that he was okay messing with Buffy and her life in Season 6, after telling her that she wasn't a sock in his sock puppet play, she ended up being one in Season 6 in the episode....I can't remember the name, but the one with the mummy hand. You know. Interesting connection, about how Buffy DID become a "sock" in Jonathan's sock puppet play - so true. I was sad that Jonathan went "bad," even if he did turn out to be the "least bad" of the bad. Jonathan did get some love and friendship from Buffy - but I guess the idea was that those isolated incidents weren't really enough. He had a hole in his life that he kept trying to fill in various unhealthy ways . . . he never really resolved it, or understood it, until Season 7, and then, well . . . he was history! I did really like the character and was sorry to see him get killed off as he did. And how very Jossian that he really had gotten to a good place, happy with himself and his life, just before Andrew stabbed him.  and  |
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Post by myhathasacow on Feb 2, 2013 7:55:26 GMT -5
Something that struck me upon rewatch - as weird as it feels to see a short guy in a leather jacket (TOM CRUISE!!!) be Sunnydale's superhero, in the media in general it's actually MUCH more common to see a dashing playboy (rather than a cute blonde girl) save the day. The Jonathon leading the fight against evil story feels strange in BTVS because BTVS is itself unusual in having a female action hero as its lead. The show messes with its premise to highlight and celebrate its premise. Awesome.
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 2, 2013 20:24:51 GMT -5
Something that struck me upon rewatch - as weird as it feels to see a short guy in a leather jacket (TOM CRUISE!!!) be Sunnydale's superhero, in the media in general it's actually MUCH more common to see a dashing playboy (rather than a cute blonde girl) save the day. The Jonathon leading the fight against evil story feels strange in BTVS because BTVS is itself unusual in having a female action hero as its lead. The show messes with its premise to highlight and celebrate its premise. Awesome. Good point, myhatasacow. Awesome, indeed. Welcome, and thanks for stopping by. |
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Feb 2, 2013 21:15:34 GMT -5
Something that struck me upon rewatch - as weird as it feels to see a short guy in a leather jacket (TOM CRUISE!!!) be Sunnydale's superhero, in the media in general it's actually MUCH more common to see a dashing playboy (rather than a cute blonde girl) save the day. The Jonathon leading the fight against evil story feels strange in BTVS because BTVS is itself unusual in having a female action hero as its lead. The show messes with its premise to highlight and celebrate its premise. Awesome. Good point, myhatasacow. Awesome, indeed. Welcome, and thanks for stopping by. My absolute favorite moment is during the military briefing when the general, flanked on both sides by Riley and a good number of 6'+ strapping young men introduces tiny Jonathan as the strategist and planner. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 4, 2013 10:09:20 GMT -5
Good point, myhatasacow. Awesome, indeed. Welcome, and thanks for stopping by. My absolute favorite moment is during the military briefing when the general, flanked on both sides by Riley and a good number of 6'+ strapping young men introduces tiny Jonathan as the strategist and planner. Ah, yes. Such a great scene in a great ep. I love the Buffy and Spike scene in this ep too. |
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