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Post by deborah on Sept 19, 2003 13:49:28 GMT -5
I don't think you are dense. It is very hard for me to communicate some of the things I see in the episode completely clearly, and I am sure I fail at times. Nice of you to say so, but I don't hear anyone else complaining (that they don't understand). Oh. That makes sense now. It was the "always evil" that threw me. I didn't realize that "always" applied only through this episode. Well, I'm still a bit dizzy here if you want to know the truth. I had understood the forshadowing between W/O & B/S (Oz & Spike both hurt the women they love, leave on quests to overcome the problems that let to the harming only to return to find that their loves had moved on). What I didn't get was where you seemed to be pointing out a parallel between W/O & B/S through Willow telling Oz about Tara and Buffy telling Riley about Angel - where does Spike fit in there? "And I notice that this episode also sets up an obvious parallel between Willow and Buffy – they both are struggling with how to reveal “kinky” love interests.
Yes. Willow's struggling to reveal "kinky" love interest Tara (new love to old love) and Buffy's struggling to reveal "kinky" love interest Angel to Riley (old love to new love). This is where I come smack against the wall. How do these respective revelations apply to Buffy and Spike? That's the only part of that section of the essay that I'm still unclear about. Oh good. You state it more clearly then I had in my original post but I seem to have correctly understood you in the first instance here. Got it right again. Whew. Not as dense as I thought, then. Thanks so much for the remedial assistance Spring. I appreciate your extra effort in helping me to get the full benefit from your wonderful analysis.
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 19, 2003 15:01:39 GMT -5
Nice of you to say so, but I don't hear anyone else complaining (that they don't understand). Well - that doesn't mean everyone understands everything I write - because they are so smart or I write with such perfect clarity. I am trying to convey some fairly tricky stuff sometimes, so it is easy to believe it is not always clear to all. OK - I see what's confusing you. You are right - Spike does NOT fit in there. Let me think how to put this . . . I am saying that, in this episode: 1) Spike = Oz. And I justify that with a list of parallels between the two of them. All I'm trying to show there is that, in this episode, there are parallels being drawn between Spike and Oz. This part has nothing to do with either Willow or Buffy. It is only about Spike and Oz. 2) Buffy = Willow. And I justify that with the mention of the "both have to deal with revealing kinky love interests." All I'm trying to show here is that, in this episode, there are parallels being drawn between Buffy and Willow. This part has nothing to do with Spike or Oz. It is only about Buffy and Willow. BUT, then what I am trying to point out is that SINCE Buffy = Willow, and Spike = Oz, AND Willow & Oz are a couple in this episode, there is foreshadowing going on - i.e., that Buffy & Spike will also become a couple, and that they too will go through very similar experiences as Willow & Oz. I am saying further that this is THE REASON that the parallels are drawn - to foreshadow Buffy & Spike's future, which will be very much like Willow & Oz's. Like Willow & Oz, Buffy & Spike will hook up. They will become a couple, then the "demony-male" half of the couple will hurt the "human-female" half, and he will run off to find a "cure" and come back and tell her he can be the man she wants him to be now - but in the end, he lets her go. Make sense?
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Post by deborah on Sept 19, 2003 15:47:18 GMT -5
Well - that doesn't mean everyone understands everything I write - because they are so smart or I write with such perfect clarity. I am trying to convey some fairly tricky stuff sometimes, so it is easy to believe it is not always clear to all. OK - I see what's confusing you. You are right - Spike does NOT fit in there. Let me think how to put this . . . I am saying that, in this episode: 1) Spike = Oz. And I justify that with a list of parallels between the two of them. All I'm trying to show there is that, in this episode, there are parallels being drawn between Spike and Oz. This part has nothing to do with either Willow or Buffy. It is only about Spike and Oz. 2) Buffy = Willow. And I justify that with the mention of the "both have to deal with revealing kinky love interests." All I'm trying to show here is that, in this episode, there are parallels being drawn between Buffy and Willow. This part has nothing to do with Spike or Oz. It is only about Buffy and Willow. BUT, then what I am trying to point out is that SINCE Buffy = Willow, and Spike = Oz, AND Willow & Oz are a couple in this episode, there is foreshadowing going on - i.e., that Buffy & Spike will also become a couple, and that they too will go through very similar experiences as Willow & Oz. I am saying further that this is THE REASON that the parallels are drawn - to foreshadow Buffy & Spike's future, which will be very much like Willow & Oz's. Like Willow & Oz, Buffy & Spike will hook up. They will become a couple, then the "demony-male" half of the couple will hurt the "human-female" half, and he will run off to find a "cure" and come back and tell her he can be the man she wants him to be now - but in the end, he lets her go. Make sense? Yup. Makes sense now. Thanks Spring.
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Post by Rob on Sept 21, 2003 4:00:06 GMT -5
Actually, I'll start at the end, because it's my favorite part. Your Wizard of Oz references are astounding. I never would have noticed that.
The very title of the episode "New Moon Rising" gives me the impression that this one is about closing out one part of your life, and moving into another. Willow, Oz and Riley are the main protagonists on the surface.
Everyone makes major changes in this transitional year. As time goes by, I tend to like Season 4 more and more as the young characters take their first steps toward putting away childish things...while the older ones change gears for their own reasons.
The remaining episodes of Season 4 will establish the beginnings of the journey toward adulthood for them all. It closes out the phases of seasons 1-3 and prepares them for the new set of trials awaiting them in Season 5.
"New Moon Rising," to me, is the beginning of the end for the early seasons. They're starting to officially grow out of what they were. Spike unwittingly helps by forcing them to air their fears and uncertainties about these changes in The Yoko Factor...but that would be reading ahead.
Spring, these analyses are priceless. I've learned more about the themes and characters in BTVS from your work than anywhere else combined.
It is truly the Crown Jewel of the S'cubie website, easily the most important contribution of any individual member.
To think we have 47 episodes to go. I wonder what else I'm going to learn.
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Post by Kerrie on Sept 21, 2003 5:53:08 GMT -5
Spring, these analyses are priceless. I've learned more about the themes and characters in BTVS from your work than anywhere else combined. It is truly the Crown Jewel of the S'cubie website, easily the most important contribution of any individual member. To think we have 47 episodes to go. I wonder what else I'm going to learn. Snap! That is exactly what I think.
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 21, 2003 11:48:32 GMT -5
Actually, I'll start at the end, because it's my favorite part. Your Wizard of Oz references are astounding. I never would have noticed that. The very title of the episode "New Moon Rising" gives me the impression that this one is about closing out one part of your life, and moving into another. Willow, Oz and Riley are the main protagonists on the surface. Everyone makes major changes in this transitional year. As time goes by, I tend to like Season 4 more and more as the young characters take their first steps toward putting away childish things...while the older ones change gears for their own reasons. The remaining episodes of Season 4 will establish the beginnings of the journey toward adulthood for them all. It closes out the phases of seasons 1-3 and prepares them for the new set of trials awaiting them in Season 5. "New Moon Rising," to me, is the beginning of the end for the early seasons. They're starting to officially grow out of what they were. Spike unwittingly helps by forcing them to air their fears and uncertainties about these changes in The Yoko Factor...but that would be reading ahead. Spring, these analyses are priceless. I've learned more about the themes and characters in BTVS from your work than anywhere else combined. It is truly the Crown Jewel of the S'cubie website, easily the most important contribution of any individual member. To think we have 47 episodes to go. I wonder what else I'm going to learn. Thanks for the nice words, Rob. I WISH we had only 47 episodes to go. But since we've got three more in Season 4, and then 3 more seasons, I'm thinking it's more like 67 or so. Dear God! If I think that way, I'll quit doing them. So, one ep at a time. Yes, I agree - the title of this ep is about the start of a new journey, and it is also about the direction of that journey. And yes, The Yoko Factor continues the theme . . . though right now, my head is spinning on my Yoko Factor analysis.
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Post by Rob on Sept 21, 2003 21:48:22 GMT -5
Thanks for the nice words, Rob. I WISH we had only 47 episodes to go. But since we've got three more in Season 4, and then 3 more seasons, I'm thinking it's more like 67 or so. Dear God! If I think that way, I'll quit doing them. So, one ep at a time. Yes, I agree - the title of this ep is about the start of a new journey, and it is also about the direction of that journey. And yes, The Yoko Factor continues the theme . . . though right now, my head is spinning on my Yoko Factor analysis. Mea culpa on the poor mathematics. Maybe an unconscious part of me was hoping you wouldn't do Season 7, since I didn't care for most of the themes.
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Post by penny on Sept 28, 2003 13:51:15 GMT -5
Empty praise from a total stranger, and extremely tardy to boot...
I love metaphors and allusions and underlying patterns in my fiction, but am not very good at finding them myself. You point them out and I can just sit back and clap my hands in delight. The relevance of that apparently throwaway Burroughs line--aha! Et cetera.
And I'm always interested in "compare and contrast" discussions of Riley and Spike. They might as well have called Riley "Ekips". Well, all right, maybe not.
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 29, 2003 10:56:51 GMT -5
Empty praise from a total stranger, and extremely tardy to boot... I love metaphors and allusions and underlying patterns in my fiction, but am not very good at finding them myself. You point them out and I can just sit back and clap my hands in delight. The relevance of that apparently throwaway Burroughs line--aha! Et cetera. And I'm always interested in "compare and contrast" discussions of Riley and Spike. They might as well have called Riley "Ekips". Well, all right, maybe not. Thanks for the nice words, penny. I am way behind on doing The Yoko Factor - lots of outside obligations getting in the way this week - drat that family and job stuff!! Ekips for Riley? OR should they start calling Spike "Yelir?" No, that would make him really mad. There are endless parallels drawn between the two as we go through Season 4 and 5 - but except for foreshadowing Spike's hookup with Buffy, and emphasizing how gray everything is, that stuff just didn't do much - at least, not for me. OK - so Spike and Riley have some things in common - and they have a huge difference between them in the way Buffy gets involved with them - Riley is the sensible choice, Spike is the crazy choice that is all about instinct and feeling, etc . . . but that Riley/Spike comparisons subtext just didn't spark my imagination much.
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Post by ldelrossi on Sept 30, 2003 7:36:15 GMT -5
I agree with Rob and penny. I really enjoy the depth of your discussion on themes, parallels, etc. You are extremely talented and your analyses are thoughtful and interesting.
This episode really expresses what I believe to be several of Joss' mantras and since we are getting ready for a new season of Angel, I thought I'd talk about how some of the points you made fit in there.
Of course the biggest one is "love hurts" and Angel certainly knows about that: first becoming Angelus after sleeping with Buffy, leaving Buffy at the end of season 3 and leaving her once again in "I Will Remember You." He let Doyle into his life, a friendship type of love, and he lost him. Wesley too betrayed Angel's friendship/love when he stole Connor. Out of his love for Connor, Angel makes a deal with Wolfram and Hart to ensure Connor's safety, even though it means a permanent separation from his son. Fred falls in love with "the handome man" who rode in on a horse and saved her from the evil of Pylea. But Angel does not feel for her in the same way. Finally, Cordelia. Angel and Cordelia loved each other as best friends, had developed a relationship over 7 years. But before their love could be realized, Jasmine or the evil PTBs used Cordelia as their vessel for evil. Now his almost love is in a permanent coma and off the show. There is no doubt that Angel knows how much love hurts.
Another one of Joss' beliefs is "not all demons are evil and not all humans are good." In Riley's black and white world, demons are demonic. First of all he has to digest that his girlfriend is a slayer, a girl far more powerful than he. He is thrown when he sees Spike, hostile 17, working and welcomed, sort of, by Buffy and her friends. He is thrown when he discovers Oz, a "normal" student in love with Willow, a "normal" friend of Buffy's is really a werewolf, at least for 3 days out of the month. And finally, he realizes that perhaps, the single-minded goal of the Initiative to dissect and annilihate all demons, may not be the right thing to do.
Angel, of course, is a demon, albeit one with a soul. But he is now a champion for good. Doyle, although half demon, is used by the PTBs to bring Angel messages of people in trouble. Later Cordelia becomes part demon so that she can better handle the visions that Doyle left her. Lorne, also a demon, reads humans and tries to set them on their right path. Merle is annoying but harmless and even gives Angel information, reluctantly. In the episode where Gunn's old crew indiscriminately kill any demons they can find, we see several examples of non-threatening demons. The one that got me especially was the big, white, blobby one in the sewers drinking a soda. He even looked harmless.
This season Angel and the Fang Gang are in the "very important to listen and learn" scenario. They have to listen and learn about the inner workings of W&H. They have to discover why they were given this opportunity and exactly who or what their clients are. With all that happened last season, Angel et al don't know if the good PTBs are not paying attention and just letting them be victimized by their evil counterparts. There is no one having visions to direct Angel. Is he still a champion? Is what Skip said true - that everything is manipulated to a particular end? And finally, Spike. Even though he has a soul, is he still the same Spike and what is his purpose in coming back?
Angel and the others must pay close attention "because without sufficient knowledge, we can make disastrous choices.
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Post by Queen E on Oct 1, 2003 15:21:34 GMT -5
The one that got me especially was the big, white, blobby one in the sewers drinking a soda. He even looked harmless. Lori: So glad I wasn't the only one affected by that. I'm not a person who gets upset or weepy over TV and movies: didn't cry in Titanic, didn't cry during Becoming Part 2 or Chosen, The Body, I Will Remember You. The two things I've seen on TV that made me start crying was Doyle's death and the Angel and Cordy watching the video with him in it, and the massacre of the balancing demon with his big gulp, in "That Old Gang of Mine."
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Post by Kerrie on Nov 20, 2003 22:10:19 GMT -5
In "Hell-bound" (I think) Angel says that he is more of a dog person. I think this is a quote from this analysis: (from memory)"Willow used to be dog person". I think it harbours well for Angel and Nina. I also think JW (or his minions) like your analyses. Good work, Spring!
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 21, 2003 8:23:39 GMT -5
In "Hell-bound" (I think) Angel says that he is more of a dog person. I think this is a quote from this analysis: (from memory)"Willow used to be dog person". I think it harbours well for Angel and Nina. I also think JW (or his minions) like your analyses. Good work, Spring! Hi Kerrie. It was nice to see some activity in the Spikecentricity thread. I have been so bad about getting back to my analyses. It's mostly due to having different types of extra outside stresses the last few months. But there is an end in sight. Yes, I noticed the "dog person" thing as well. I wonder if anything will come of it. Thanks for the comment on JW and his minions liking my analyses. I really wish I could know if JW or any of the writers ever did read one, and what they thought - that would be great feedback to get. But like that marriage proposal from JM, that feedback is probably something I'd better not count on in the near future.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Jan 21, 2004 16:04:46 GMT -5
Ok, yes, I'm months behind. But the cool thing about these analyses is that they are just as good and relevant now as when they were written.
Spring, you always seem to look right into my heart and soul in these things- its uncomfortable...so I'm skipping all those parts in this discussion and focusing on how neat your Wizard of Oz catch was. Am I just dense or what? Don't answer that. ...
This was such an excellent episode and I hated it so much- I am such a Willow/Oz shipper...this one broke my heart almost as much as when he left the first time. And I've just revisited it...grrr...argh...think I'll go read the next one!
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jan 26, 2005 15:42:59 GMT -5
I was rereading this thread and thinking about the confusion about Spike/Oz parallels and all the love triangles and I'm thinking perhaps there isn't meant to be an exact correlation because there are several parallels being made.
I see a big Willow/Oz Buffy/Angel parallel being drawn as well, which I don't think you mention. I think the relationships may have been paralleled all along, after all Phases comes right after Innocence. Both are high school romances that Buffy and Willow grow out of. Angel, like Oz, hurts Buffy and leaves, then comes back much later (in Chosen) and wants to be part of Buffy's life again, only to find that Buffy has grown and changed. Buffy chooses Spike, not Angel, as her Champion, much like Willow chooses to be with Tara. The Willow/Oz conversation in the end is a lot like the Buffy/Angel conversation at the beginning of Chosen, except that Oz is the coolest person in the whole world while Angel can be awfully petty at times. Willow is the one person that can make Oz lose his newfound control over his wolfiness; Buffy is the one person that cause Angel to lose his soul. I sort of see that mixed up with everything else which is maybe why it's a little confusing.
I love the Buffy/Riley discussion about "different degrees of evil" and how we see a similar Angel/Kate discussion on Angel about "not evil Evil Things." Whenever I hear Buffy say "there are some creatures, vampires for example who aren't evil at all" and Riley says, "name one" I always think "well what about two, Buffy?" I also think it's interesting, though true to life, that Buffy accuses Riley of being a bigot, when she can be very judgemental herself at times.
Finally, I always have trouble reconciling the Buffy who can pull a William Burroughs reference out of nowhere with the Buffy who confuses reconnaissance with renaissance. Don't think it's really important but it always gets to me.
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