|
Post by SpringSummers on Jan 26, 2005 21:37:00 GMT -5
I was rereading this thread and thinking about the confusion about Spike/Oz parallels and all the love triangles and I'm thinking perhaps there isn't meant to be an exact correlation because there are several parallels being made. I see a big Willow/Oz Buffy/Angel parallel being drawn as well, which I don't think you mention. I think the relationships may have been paralleled all along, after all Phases comes right after Innocence. Both are high school romances that Buffy and Willow grow out of. Angel, like Oz, hurts Buffy and leaves, then comes back much later (in Chosen) and wants to be part of Buffy's life again, only to find that Buffy has grown and changed. Buffy chooses Spike, not Angel, as her Champion, much like Willow chooses to be with Tara. The Willow/Oz conversation in the end is a lot like the Buffy/Angel conversation at the beginning of Chosen, except that Oz is the coolest person in the whole world while Angel can be awfully petty at times. Willow is the one person that can make Oz lose his newfound control over his wolfiness; Buffy is the one person that cause Angel to lose his soul. I sort of see that mixed up with everything else which is maybe why it's a little confusing. I love the Buffy/Riley discussion about "different degrees of evil" and how we see a similar Angel/Kate discussion on Angel about "not evil Evil Things." Whenever I hear Buffy say "there are some creatures, vampires for example who aren't evil at all" and Riley says, "name one" I always think "well what about two, Buffy?" I also think it's interesting, though true to life, that Buffy accuses Riley of being a bigot, when she can be very judgemental herself at times. Finally, I always have trouble reconciling the Buffy who can pull a William Burroughs reference out of nowhere with the Buffy who confuses reconnaissance with renaissance. Don't think it's really important but it always gets to me. I do agree with the Willow/Oz compared to Buffy/Angel thing, especially in Season's 2 & 3- but also, as you point out, foreshadowing Buffy "choosing someone else." Of course, there are many comparisons to be made with B/A and B/S- so it does all sort of moosh together. Buffy - well, I love Buffy. I do think her portrayal as smart sometimes and fairly ditzy other times is usually deliberate, and is something she has in common with Spike. She's really very smart, and that shows at times. But she can also be very shortsighted and . . . she doesn't place as much value on the intellect as she does emotion.
|
|
|
Post by Onjel on Jan 28, 2005 12:36:06 GMT -5
I was rereading this thread and thinking about the confusion about Spike/Oz parallels and all the love triangles and I'm thinking perhaps there isn't meant to be an exact correlation because there are several parallels being made. I see a big Willow/Oz Buffy/Angel parallel being drawn as well, which I don't think you mention. I think the relationships may have been paralleled all along, after all Phases comes right after Innocence. Both are high school romances that Buffy and Willow grow out of. Angel, like Oz, hurts Buffy and leaves, then comes back much later (in Chosen) and wants to be part of Buffy's life again, only to find that Buffy has grown and changed. Buffy chooses Spike, not Angel, as her Champion, much like Willow chooses to be with Tara. The Willow/Oz conversation in the end is a lot like the Buffy/Angel conversation at the beginning of Chosen, except that Oz is the coolest person in the whole world while Angel can be awfully petty at times. Willow is the one person that can make Oz lose his newfound control over his wolfiness; Buffy is the one person that cause Angel to lose his soul. I sort of see that mixed up with everything else which is maybe why it's a little confusing. I love the Buffy/Riley discussion about "different degrees of evil" and how we see a similar Angel/Kate discussion on Angel about "not evil Evil Things." Whenever I hear Buffy say "there are some creatures, vampires for example who aren't evil at all" and Riley says, "name one" I always think "well what about two, Buffy?" I also think it's interesting, though true to life, that Buffy accuses Riley of being a bigot, when she can be very judgemental herself at times. Finally, I always have trouble reconciling the Buffy who can pull a William Burroughs reference out of nowhere with the Buffy who confuses reconnaissance with renaissance. Don't think it's really important but it always gets to me. The not evil evil, less evil discussion presages the comment by Giles in "Into the Woods" where he urges Buffy to concentrate on ridding the world of the "less ambiguous evil" of Glory rather than taking out a nest of vampire prostitutes and their blood-letting johns. Of course such a comment should be expected from Giles formerly known as Ripper, but I think it is one of the few times he actually voices the notion that there can be "ambiguous evil". Too bad he doesn't remember that in S7 before he tries to have Spike killed.
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Jan 28, 2005 12:59:11 GMT -5
The not evil evil, less evil discussion presages the comment by Giles in "Into the Woods" where he urges Buffy to concentrate on ridding the world of the "less ambiguous evil" of Glory rather than taking out a nest of vampire prostitutes and their blood-letting johns. Of course such a comment should be expected from Giles formerly known as Ripper, but I think it is one of the few times he actually voices the notion that there can be "ambiguous evil". Too bad he doesn't remember that in S7 before he tries to have Spike killed. Yep. I think, in addition to some of the other things we've talked about that we playing out with Giles in season 7 (burn out, stress from the death of Buffy and his killing of Ben, the Watcher's council all being taken out so that more was resting on his shoulders, etc.) I think that much of his response to Spike and his willingness to go along with Woods' plan is personal. Not only his own issues with vamps, Angelus in particular, that he is transferring to Spike, but also because it is Buffy who is being "influenced" (in his opinion). So he has such a personal connection and a bit of a blind spot when it comes to Buffy. That fatherly connection is so important to their success as Slayer and Watcher, but can also make it hard for him to be objective sometimes. Or to see where he is being somewhat contradictory. Lola
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Jan 28, 2005 17:00:32 GMT -5
Yep. I think, in addition to some of the other things we've talked about that we playing out with Giles in season 7 (burn out, stress from the death of Buffy and his killing of Ben, the Watcher's council all being taken out so that more was resting on his shoulders, etc.) I think that much of his response to Spike and his willingness to go along with Woods' plan is personal. Not only his own issues with vamps, Angelus in particular, that he is transferring to Spike, but also because it is Buffy who is being "influenced" (in his opinion). So he has such a personal connection and a bit of a blind spot when it comes to Buffy. That fatherly connection is so important to their success as Slayer and Watcher, but can also make it hard for him to be objective sometimes. Or to see where he is being somewhat contradictory. Lola Agree completely. LMPTM isn't just about . . . Giles transferring his dislike of Angel or Giles' very legit worries about the dangers Spike presents . . . it's about Buffy finally and definitely cutting the apron strings. It's about Buffy making a step toward growing up - it's no coincidence that in the ep where Giles tries to kill Spike, Buffy ends up telling him she's "learned all she can from him." The underlying move from Giles to Spike in Season 6 is a move toward growing into womanhood, and it's finalized here. Giles is being a dad there, in trying to kill Spike. It's a dramatic Buffyverse version of the dad who tries to protect his little girl from the big bad wolves out there, who has to let go of that part of himself that wishes he could keep her virginal and protected forever, etc. It's about your timeless father/daughter stuff - and all that involves.
|
|
|
Post by baunger1 on Jun 4, 2011 17:46:24 GMT -5
Hi, Spring!
Just re-watched New Moon Rising and re-read your amazing analysis. The Willow/Oz, Buffy/Spike parallels are really fascinating.
The idea that voicing your thoughts gives those thoughts power, makes them real, is particularly interesting when it comes to Buffy's verbalizing the moral ambiguity of good v. evil, human v. demon, for the first time. The first time she becomes aware in a conscious way about the inherent ambiguity of being the Slayer. And interesting that the discussion is prompted by thoughts of Angel -- the first seeds of her acknowledging the duality of Angel's nature, and not idealizing him -- but, of course, apply to Spike.
I like Spike's repeated references here to something dangerous getting in when a door is unlocked. The chip has unlocked a door in him, and the more humanity that gets in, the more dangerous it is to the identity he's spent a century constructing.
Thanks again for your wonderful work!
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Jun 4, 2011 21:12:18 GMT -5
Hi, Spring! Just re-watched New Moon Rising and re-read your amazing analysis. The Willow/Oz, Buffy/Spike parallels are really fascinating. The idea that voicing your thoughts gives those thoughts power, makes them real, is particularly interesting when it comes to Buffy's verbalizing the moral ambiguity of good v. evil, human v. demon, for the first time. The first time she becomes aware in a conscious way about the inherent ambiguity of being the Slayer. And interesting that the discussion is prompted by thoughts of Angel -- the first seeds of her acknowledging the duality of Angel's nature, and not idealizing him -- but, of course, apply to Spike. I like Spike's repeated references here to something dangerous getting in when a door is unlocked. The chip has unlocked a door in him, and the more humanity that gets in, the more dangerous it is to the identity he's spent a century constructing. Thanks again for your wonderful work! Hi, baunger! I love getting comments over here now and then, so thanks for stopping by. Great thinky thoughts! I had never really thought about how, in this ep (an ep where we see the impact of words) Buffy is starting to verbalize the duality of human and demon nature. Nice catch! Also love the way you've extended Spike's words about "something dangerous getting in" to refer to the chip that is inside him . . . a sort of reverse, isn't it? For him, "something good has gotten in," which is, in its way, very dangerous for him.
|
|
|
Post by baunger1 on Jun 5, 2011 7:16:16 GMT -5
It also occurs to me, in terms of the Oz/Spike/Riley parallels you point out, that while Oz and Spike will try to change in order to be the kind of man that their partners deserve or need, they do so by trying to control or temper the monsters in them; while Riley will try to change for Buffy by doing the opposite -- by putting a little monster into the man.
Also, more on the unlocked door theme: that the door in Riley's mind has been unlocked, exposing him to the reality of moral ambiguity, and thereby changing him. The unlocking of the door to his jail cell, and his choice to walk through it, changes his identity, from soldier to anarchist. And his is an identity rigidly constructed by external forces (drugs, conditioning) and internal choices, much as Spike's is. Thinking about it in this way makes me feel more sympathetic to Riley than I usually do.
Your analysis has really got my mind spinning about this episode. I've always loved the episide, but I think, previously, I've been distracted from delving into it analytically because of the intense emotional response I have to it. Much weeping each time I watch it. Plus, seeing JM in the army outfit makes everything else kind of blur and fade away.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Jun 5, 2011 18:23:03 GMT -5
It also occurs to me, in terms of the Oz/Spike/Riley parallels you point out, that while Oz and Spike will try to change in order to be the kind of man that their partners deserve or need, they do so by trying to control or temper the monsters in them; while Riley will try to change for Buffy by doing the opposite -- by putting a little monster into the man. Interesting thought, and very true. Yes, Riley is basically a good guy. He truly does love Buffy, but he is quite young and insecure, and he's in over his head, in so many ways. It is an emotional episode. Oz/Willow angst is the angstiest! And I do love Spike's "evil olive" look.
|
|
|
Post by williamtheb on Jul 3, 2012 15:21:39 GMT -5
Hi Spring!
What a fabulous episode -- and what an eye-opening analysis! I love how you've framed this episode as being all about explicit communication: almost a companion piece to "Hush," the idea that reality is formed and understood by saying thoughts out loud. In the season four arc, it's interesting how we're almost at Primeval, in which the gang declare their connection to one another explicitly -- and the "hand/heart/spirit/mind" roles are explicitly given.
I love baunger's point above -- about Buffy articulating the human/demon distinction for the first time. It is also about Buffy coming out and saying what happened between her and Angel, something which has long been lodged in her subconscious, unable to get out and be fought. And maybe that is the key to what Riley gives Buffy -- what wonderful things she does get out of the relationship, doomed though it is. She gets to work through what went wrong with Angel, at least in part. This episode is followed immediately, on AtS, by "Sanctuary," where she actually, for (nearly) the only time in either series, calls Angel a murderer and lets loose on him. It's also, rather sadly, the only time on either series she says she loves Riley, when she describes him as "someone I love," mainly as a way of hurting Angel. Somehow that is one of the saddest things about their relationship: that Buffy has genuine feelings for Riley, but they aren't enough to act on except when she's spurred on by her much more intense feelings for and about Angel (and Faith, in a different way of course).
And this is the episode where Willow comes out to Buffy, and to herself. It's really interesting to think about how Oz' presence actually forces Willow to deal with her sexuality -- and to say out loud what her feelings are. Oz has so much confidence, he's bubbling over with it: he shows up in Giles' house, in Willow's dorm room and in the hallways of UC Sunnydale like he owns the place, holding a few books and talking about how he's going back to school there, as if he's never left. Oz doesn't talk much, but because of that, his words have so much meaning: he creates reality around him with perfect certainty. Tara, on the other hand, is afraid to speak; she was introduced in Hush, she stutters, and she doesn't feel like she belongs anywhere. In particular, while Willow and Oz' relationship was, nearly every step of the way, verbally declared -- in Phases they declare explicitly that they would "very still" like to be together, and seal their verbal declaration with a kiss (another use of their lips!), in Amends they talk carefully about going to bed together and why they shouldn't, etc. -- Willow and Tara's relationship exists in a largely unverbalized space. I think light/dark imagery creeps in here as well -- Willow and Tara's relationship is in the dark, not because it is evil (though they both keep secrets, and it will go into moral darkness, on Tara's end to a small extent in Family and on Willow's end to a large extent in s6), but because it is hidden away, not exposed, whereas Willow and Oz's relationship is mostly in the light, in the hallways of Sunnydale High. Willow really knows what she wants, deep down, I think, the whole episode long: she wants to be with Tara. But finding the words is nearly impossible: because she knows, and can articulate, what she and Oz have, but finding a way to express what her relationship with Tara is requires effort. How can she find the words? It's not a relationship she's ever had described to her. The episode all about trying to make reality happen by saying the words is the episode where Willow and Tara stop being subtext and become official, clearly-verbalized text. Pretty cool, that.
|
|
|
Post by williamtheb on Jul 3, 2012 15:50:32 GMT -5
Right, I wanted to add:
I love, too, how Oz' arc foreshadows not just Spike's, but really all the characters' struggles with their dark sides. Oz repressed his dark side, and that works fine -- as long as he doesn't become deeply upset by something around him. What's interesting is that the metaphor is so clear that no deeper explanation is required. When his dark side was emerging regularly at the full moon, it ONLY emerged on the full moon -- he never transformed into a wolf any other nights. But when he pushed his dark side away entirely, kept it deeply buried in himself, it also was ready to emerge at ANY TIME, when he's sufficiently upset. What makes Oz most dangerous in this episode, and nearly leads to Tara's death, is not that he has a wolf side, but that he's repressed it.
It turns out to be true for Spike, too, in season six, that Buffy is the thing that makes him lose himself (in the AR). Buffy's most vicious attacks against people are tied with her deep love, as well as her repression of her slayer dark side: Faith in Graduation Day, Spike in Dead Things, and her friends and sister in Normal Again. Xander's harshness and womanizing side is something he sees in himself and tries to stuff deep down where it can never be found, but it comes out when he's least prepared for it, first in "old Xander's" visions given to him in Hell's Bells, and then in Entropy. And most of all, I think this applies to Willow. Willow tries, in season six, to repress her power entirely after Dawn nearly dies, and she even succeeds in being just an ordinary girl again. But that is the wrong solution. First of all, because a Willow without magic power really is less useful to the gang and herself -- as is pointed out in Older and Far Away, and implied elsewhere (I think if Willow were practicing magic she wouldn't have been knocked out and tied up by Buffy in Normal Again). But more importantly because, when Tara dies, all bets are off, and Willow has done nothing to control the flood of emotions that rush into her when something finally goes wrong, as it eventually necessarily would (though it probably would have been less apocalyptic had something happened besides Tara's death). Denying one's dark, one's power, only makes it come back stronger when it does come out, and makes one miserable in the interim besides. By season seven the key cast members are all heading toward some type of balance. I like to think that Oz is out there doing the same.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Jul 3, 2012 20:02:48 GMT -5
Hi! Yes, many of the eps touch on this (the role of words/verbal expression), but this particular ep seemed to be really hammering it. Agree that it was about how reality is formed and understood by the expression of our thoughts, and also, related to this, how our connections to others are therefore established (or broken). . . and the power that results (or is lost). Great point. I never thought about this in relation to this ep, but it makes perfect sense and fits in with the whole theme - Riley provides a very valuable service to Buffy here, in being someone to whom she can - in part at least - start to talk about Angel, and start to accept her loss. When it comes to the grieving process, Buffy gets kind of stuck in "denial." Love this characterization of Oz. He's at his best, IMO, in Innocence "In my fantasy, when I'm kissing YOU, you're kissing ME." It just tells you all you need to know about Oz. He lives in reality; he's comfortable and confident doing so. And he's not settling for anything less. Great point about how Oz makes Willow face reality. Oz doesn't do "denial." That is cool. Thanks for sharing that thought. Very on target - love the Oz/Willow and Tara/Willow comparisons, and how you pont out the differences can be seen in their (Oz and Tara's) different modes of expression (confident vs stuttering). Interesting that they both are "quiet" types, too.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Jul 3, 2012 20:09:12 GMT -5
Right, I wanted to add: I love, too, how Oz' arc foreshadows not just Spike's, but really all the characters' struggles with their dark sides. Yes, I think Spike is most explicitly being compared - a lot of deliberate parallels - but definitely, all the characters have the light/dark thing going on. GREAT insight. It's very "Angel-like." Exactly so. This is just the sort of thing going on in the Angel-Buffy-Spike triangle . . . Spike is so good at getting their goats, and frustrating them, because they deny that darkside . . . and therefore can't integrate it, or harness its power.
|
|