|
Post by William the Bloody on Jan 5, 2004 10:31:03 GMT -5
Let the discussion begin.
|
|
|
Post by Kerrie on Jan 5, 2004 15:52:13 GMT -5
Another great review, Spring, but it leaves me wondering how much Dracula knew was to come. It is normal for teens/young adults to struggle to find their own identities and embrace their full character (i.e. their strengths and weaknesses), but season 5 was a particularly black year for Buffy. As we have discussed privately, season 5 really developed not just Buffy's dark side but her death wish as well. This was created, not by normal developmental changes but by the extraordinary event of Joyce's death. Thus, the real darkness of Buffy's nature was not foreseeable: it was the result of chance. (I know - more of my pointless speculations. :
|
|
|
Post by raenstorm on Jan 5, 2004 16:02:06 GMT -5
Another great review, Spring, but it leaves me wondering how much Dracula knew was to come. It is normal for teens/young adults to struggle to find their own identities and embrace their full character (i.e. their strengths and weaknesses), but season 5 was a particularly black year for Buffy. As we have discussed privately, season 5 really developed not just Buffy's dark side but her death wish as well. This was created, not by normal developmental changes but by the extraordinary event of Joyce's death. Thus, the real darkness of Buffy's nature was not foreseeable: it was the result of chance. (I know - more of my pointless speculations. : Hey now... speculations are never pointless Naturally I haven't had time to read Spring's analysis yet so I hope I don't say anything that I'm going to change my mind about once I do read it. I had a great counterpoint (sorta) but then I went and researched and realized I was going to be completely wrong. So, instead I'll say that I'm not sure Dracula saw what was coming in Buffy's future so much as sensed that, as a Slayer, she was going to be touching a dark place within herself before long. As Spike points out later in the season, death is the Slayer's art. Having survived longer than most slayers, the chances of all the killing, etc. catching up with her mentally were just a matter of time in his eyes. Plus, I think, Dracula wanted to convince her she was headed down the path of darkness more than knowing that she was... he probably contributed to her eventually choosing that path (esp. with the events that came later in the season) but I don't think he actually knew what was ahead for her.
|
|
|
Post by Nickim on Jan 5, 2004 16:32:13 GMT -5
Hey now... speculations are never pointless Naturally I haven't had time to read Spring's analysis yet so I hope I don't say anything that I'm going to change my mind about once I do read it. I had a great counterpoint (sorta) but then I went and researched and realized I was going to be completely wrong. So, instead I'll say that I'm not sure Dracula saw what was coming in Buffy's future so much as sensed that, as a Slayer, she was going to be touching a dark place within herself before long. As Spike points out later in the season, death is the Slayer's art. Having survived longer than most slayers, the chances of all the killing, etc. catching up with her mentally were just a matter of time in his eyes. Plus, I think, Dracula wanted to convince her she was headed down the path of darkness more than knowing that she was... he probably contributed to her eventually choosing that path (esp. with the events that came later in the season) but I don't think he actually knew what was ahead for her. Great review, Spring. Rae, Dru could do the thrall thing and she had visions, so maybe Dracula did too.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Jan 5, 2004 16:36:11 GMT -5
Another great review, Spring, but it leaves me wondering how much Dracula knew was to come. It is normal for teens/young adults to struggle to find their own identities and embrace their full character (i.e. their strengths and weaknesses), but season 5 was a particularly black year for Buffy. As we have discussed privately, season 5 really developed not just Buffy's dark side but her death wish as well. This was created, not by normal developmental changes but by the extraordinary event of Joyce's death. Thus, the real darkness of Buffy's nature was not foreseeable: it was the result of chance. (I know - more of my pointless speculations. : Thanks Kerrie. No speculations are pointless, I very much appreciate all your interest and feedback. I don't think Dracula knew anything specific about what was to come. Actually - mom's death is something of a normal development change. I mean . . . not everyone loses their mom, but a lot of young people go through their first truly devastating loss at that age. I think we all have darkness in our nature. Buffy finds what is already, by necessity, there. Of course, for Buffy, it's writ Slayer large, but I think it represents the way we must all come to terms with our darksides.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Jan 5, 2004 16:38:08 GMT -5
Hey now... speculations are never pointless Naturally I haven't had time to read Spring's analysis yet so I hope I don't say anything that I'm going to change my mind about once I do read it. I had a great counterpoint (sorta) but then I went and researched and realized I was going to be completely wrong. So, instead I'll say that I'm not sure Dracula saw what was coming in Buffy's future so much as sensed that, as a Slayer, she was going to be touching a dark place within herself before long. As Spike points out later in the season, death is the Slayer's art. Having survived longer than most slayers, the chances of all the killing, etc. catching up with her mentally were just a matter of time in his eyes. Plus, I think, Dracula wanted to convince her she was headed down the path of darkness more than knowing that she was... he probably contributed to her eventually choosing that path (esp. with the events that came later in the season) but I don't think he actually knew what was ahead for her. I think everyone has to go down that path if they truly want to grow up. Now, not everyone DOES go down that path, and they sure don't go down in it in that wild and crazy operatic and dramatic way Buffy did, but they go down it on the way to adulthood.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Jan 5, 2004 16:39:35 GMT -5
Great review, Spring. Rae, Dru could do the thrall thing and she had visions, so maybe Dracula did too. Thanks, Nicki - glad you enjoyed it and took the time to provide the positive feedback.
|
|
|
Post by Rob on Jan 5, 2004 18:58:16 GMT -5
Superb review, Spring. Buffy Vs. Dracula is the first post "Restless" episode...which is significant. Seasons 1-3 were about adolescence...Season 4 was about transition...
Season 5 is clearly showing the group as struggling adults for the first time. Everyone is starting to establish and find themselves...which is what "Restless" trying to tell us, primarily.
"Always got to be moving forward."- Xander, Restless.
In their own way, everyone is attempting to do that here.
|
|
|
Post by Kerrie on Jan 5, 2004 21:05:59 GMT -5
Thanks Kerrie. No speculations are pointless, I very much appreciate all your interest and feedback. I don't think Dracula knew anything specific about what was to come. Actually - mom's death is something of a normal development change. I mean . . . not everyone loses their mom, but a lot of young people go through their first truly devastating loss at that age. I think we all have darkness in our nature. Buffy finds what is already, by necessity, there. Of course, for Buffy, it's writ Slayer large, but I think it represents the way we must all come to terms with our darksides. I agree that we all have darkness in our natures and that Dracula was not making any specific predictions but I thought that his hints about Buffy's darkness referred more to the fact that the Slayer line was based on demons. Thus all slayers are part demon, like vampires, and that violence and killing is part of their identity and not just their job-descriptions (i.e. they do it for 'fun' - see Buffy with Spike in season 6). Buffy's death at the end of season 5 has been interpreted as a type of suicide. This is the issue that confuses me. Dracula saw Buffy's darkness, but did that darkness include her suicidal tendancies or just her violent streak. Given that there was no hint of Buffy's death wish in her dream in Restless I thought that the death wish was purely the result of Joyce's death and therefore not an intrinsic part of slaying. However, in FFL Spike says that making death creates a death wish in Slayers. Under this interpretation Nikki sort of suicided by allowing Spike to kill her so easily. I dunno - that is such a big call that I think that Spike was messing with Buffy when he gave his last lesson in FFL and that he partly planted the idea of a death wish in Buffy. In short I don't know whether a death wish is a latent part of all Slayers and that Dracula foresaw it or whether it was specific to Buffy and her particular circumstances. (I bet you are regretting your encouragement of my wild speculations. This whole hypothetical debate rests on the possibility that Buffy's self-sacrifice at the end of season 5 was a partial expression of her own death wish and not simply her desire to save the world and Dawn.)
|
|
|
Post by ellie on Jan 5, 2004 23:45:57 GMT -5
I agree that we all have darkness in our natures and that Dracula was not making any specific predictions but I thought that his hints about Buffy's darkness referred more to the fact that the Slayer line was based on demons. Thus all slayers are part demon, like vampires, and that violence and killing is part of their identity and not just their job-descriptions (i.e. they do it for 'fun' - see Buffy with Spike in season 6). Buffy's death at the end of season 5 has been interpreted as a type of suicide. This is the issue that confuses me. Dracula saw Buffy's darkness, but did that darkness include her suicidal tendancies or just her violent streak. Given that there was no hint of Buffy's death wish in her dream in Restless I thought that the death wish was purely the result of Joyce's death and therefore not an intrinsic part of slaying. However, in FFL Spike says that making death creates a death wish in Slayers. Under this interpretation Nikki sort of suicided by allowing Spike to kill her so easily. I dunno - that is such a big call that I think that Spike was messing with Buffy when he gave his last lesson in FFL and that he partly planted the idea of a death wish in Buffy. In short I don't know whether a death wish is a latent part of all Slayers and that Dracula foresaw it or whether it was specific to Buffy and her particular circumstances. (I bet you are regretting your encouragement of my wild speculations. This whole hypothetical debate rests on the possibility that Buffy's self-sacrifice at the end of season 5 was a partial expression of her own death wish and not simply her desire to save the world and Dawn.) Hi Kerrie- I guess I kinda thought that Buffy's character deepened of necessity due to the fact that Joyce's death personalized and particularized death for Buffy. Buffy freaked out when her own death was foretold but generally her response was cold anger to threats- she went into hyperdrive when Willow was threatened and she always behaved as though her powers and her friends could see her through. I think Dracula and to some extent Spike encouraged her to look a little further at how she would handle utter helplessness in the face of natural death, loss of a deep love, loss of friendship- Her inner resources always stood her in good- Angel taunted her and she stood alone - The Master taunted her and Xander rescued her. Adam taunted her and the group rallied and gave her their combined strength. Glory taunted her and Buffy laid down her life for her love- her sister. Willow taunted her and buffy struggled valiantly with her sister in the face of hopeless odds while first Giles and then Xander offered their assistance to the bereft and destructive Willow- Buffy was thrown out of her home-stripped of her friends and rallied by one whose lvoe she had derided and then accepted which gave her the confidence to offer her gifts to shield and defend a world she had helped arm itself. Dracula offered her a view of her darkness which is in us all- the possibility that we can and might rally in the face of insurmountable loss to fight another day- the struggle is to maintain our humainity in the face of that dehumanizing possibilty.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Jan 6, 2004 7:18:17 GMT -5
Superb review, Spring. Buffy Vs. Dracula is the first post "Restless" episode...which is significant. Seasons 1-3 were about adolescence...Season 4 was about transition... Season 5 is clearly showing the group as struggling adults for the first time. Everyone is starting to establish and find themselves...which is what "Restless" trying to tell us, primarily. "Always got to be moving forward."- Xander, Restless. In their own way, everyone is attempting to do that here. Thanks, Rob. I agree with your summary of the Seasons, as far as "the journey" goes. With its images of The First Slayer, Restless set us up, and Buffy vs Dracula got us going, on the adult Buffy's journey (all the Scoobies journeys) toward exploring the darkness. Your Xander quote is perfect as far as describing how they will all, ultimately approach this. Not everyone understands you "gotta be with the moving forward," but for all their imperfections and backsliding and detours, Buffy and her friends manage to, ultimately, always be with the moving forward.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Jan 6, 2004 7:41:38 GMT -5
I agree that we all have darkness in our natures and that Dracula was not making any specific predictions but I thought that his hints about Buffy's darkness referred more to the fact that the Slayer line was based on demons. Thus all slayers are part demon, like vampires, and that violence and killing is part of their identity and not just their job-descriptions (i.e. they do it for 'fun' - see Buffy with Spike in season 6). I don't think that Slayers are literally part-demon the way vampires are. I mean . . . I believe Buffy and Dracula's distinction . . . that it is Buffy's POWER that is rooted in darkness, as opposed to an actual demon being inside Buffy (in a literal sense, I mean). I say this thinking about the fact that Spike couldn't hit Buffy until she came back with her "molecular sun tan." Having said that though, I don't mean to imply that Buffy doesn't have a darkside (we all do) or that having power that is "rooted in darkness" doesn't affect that. Buffy's power is, of course, a part of her. This is wide-open for interpretation type territory, but my own feeling is that Dracula wasn't talking about the ' death wish" thing, but about the violence. Not that a penchant for violence, and a fascination with death, aren't related . . . Well - I think it is all interelated, and can't be neatly sorted out. Spike suggests that Buffy's daily dances with death has made her curious about it - again, I think we are getting a "human experience writ large" 'here. Everyone is curious about death, everyone experiences times in their lives when - for whatever reason - perhaps the deadening and numbing of daily exposure to pain and death - death itself seems very appealing. For most of us, this isn't enough to actually take us to the point of suicide - though most people are contributory to their own deaths - people smoke, they overeat, they don't take their medicine . . . some chase death with constant and wildly risky behavior . . . why? So - like the darkness inside Buffy, the death wish is being explored and presented as part of our common human experience. Well - the NY Slayer fought like crazy, so I wouldn't characterize her as allowing Spike to kill her easily. But she was out there fighting everyday and taking risks and like all of us - especially people who are exposed daily to the less appealing aspects of life and the world - a part of her couldn't help but notice that "look of peace," couldn't help but want that peace. Couldn't help but want to shed that mortal coil. Spike is suggesting that she wanted victory less than he did - maybe by a miniscule amount, but by enough to allow him to win. Mark Twain (I think) once suggested that the reason he rejoiced at births, and cried at deaths, is that wasn't him. In other words, he wasn't the one who had to be born into this world, and he wasn't the one who got to leave. The idea here, of course, is that we all have a death wish to some extent. Of course, we all have a life-wish as well . . . a survival instinct and a love of life. I think Joss & Co are suggesting we all have a death wish we struggle against. And those who survive, who thrive even, are those who struggle the hardest and give in the least, who tap in the strongest to their love of life. No regrets! And I definitely feel that Buffy's sacrifice at the end of Season 5 had to do with her deathwish - her weariness, her disenchantment with the world, etc - as well as her desire to save the world and Dawn.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Jan 6, 2004 7:52:32 GMT -5
Hi Kerrie- I guess I kinda thought that Buffy's character deepened of necessity due to the fact that Joyce's death personalized and particularized death for Buffy. Buffy freaked out when her own death was foretold but generally her response was cold anger to threats- she went into hyperdrive when Willow was threatened and she always behaved as though her powers and her friends could see her through. I think Dracula and to some extent Spike encouraged her to look a little further at how she would handle utter helplessness in the face of natural death, loss of a deep love, loss of friendship- Her inner resources always stood her in good- Angel taunted her and she stood alone - The Master taunted her and Xander rescued her. Adam taunted her and the group rallied and gave her their combined strength. Glory taunted her and Buffy laid down her life for her love- her sister. Willow taunted her and buffy struggled valiantly with her sister in the face of hopeless odds while first Giles and then Xander offered their assistance to the bereft and destructive Willow- Buffy was thrown out of her home-stripped of her friends and rallied by one whose lvoe she had derided and then accepted which gave her the confidence to offer her gifts to shield and defend a world she had helped arm itself. Dracula offered her a view of her darkness which is in us all- the possibility that we can and might rally in the face of insurmountable loss to fight another day- the struggle is to maintain our humainity in the face of that dehumanizing possibilty. Kerrie - ellie's post here adds some very interesting aspects, and in particular, she addresses Joyce's death . . . and I agree with what is being suggested by you both . . . Joyce's death is pivotal. Buffy has experienced death before, but despite her brief death in Season 1 - I think Joyce's death is the first time she truly experiences it in an "up close and personal" way. And look what death has done. Look at what it is, in part: It is something more powerful than she is.
|
|
|
Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jan 6, 2004 8:38:33 GMT -5
Spring, I have been remiss in not commenting on your analyses. But I offer excuse in that I find them perfect and beyond (my) comment. Each seems complete, well detailed and supported, clear, insightful, and accurate. I enjoy them enormously. And whether because of your mastery of analysis or my boggling at such an edifice of reasonable inference, I literally can find nothing to say about or apart from each of your analyses. Really. So please forgive my silence of dumbstruck admiration all those times I have found nothing to comment. And imagine my applause.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Jan 6, 2004 9:39:56 GMT -5
Spring, I have been remiss in not commenting on your analyses. But I offer excuse in that I find them perfect and beyond (my) comment. Each seems complete, well detailed and supported, clear, insightful, and accurate. I enjoy them enormously. And whether because of your mastery of analysis or my boggling at such an edifice of reasonable inference, I literally can find nothing to say about or apart from each of your analyses. Really. So please forgive my silence of dumbstruck admiration all those times I have found nothing to comment. And imagine my applause. Many thanks, Nan - for your compliments and for taking the time to let me know you've been reading and appreciating. It really does mean a lot to me. Your comments - no matter how brief or lengthy - are always welcome - but I am also happy to imagine the applause as needed (thanks for the cozy image).
|
|