Buffy Vs Dracula Discussion

[Kerrie]

ellie said:

Hi Kerrie-

I guess I kinda thought that Buffy's character deepened of necessity due to the fact that Joyce's death personalized and particularized death for Buffy.

Buffy freaked out when her own death was foretold but generally her response was cold anger to threats- she went into hyperdrive when Willow was threatened and she always behaved as though her powers and her friends could see her through.

I think Dracula and to some extent Spike encouraged her to look a little further at how she would handle utter helplessness in the face of natural death, loss of a deep love, loss of friendship-

Her inner resources always stood her in good- Angel taunted her and she stood alone -

The Master taunted her and Xander rescued her.

Adam taunted her and the group rallied and gave her their combined strength.

Glory taunted her and Buffy laid down her life for her love- her sister.

Willow taunted her and buffy struggled valiantly with her sister in the face of hopeless odds while first Giles and then Xander offered their assistance to the bereft and destructive Willow-

Buffy was thrown out of her home-stripped of her friends and rallied by one whose lvoe she had derided and then accepted which gave her the confidence to offer her gifts to shield and defend a world she had helped arm itself.

Dracula offered her a view of her darkness which is in us all- the possibility that we can and might rally in the face of insurmountable loss to fight another day- the struggle is to maintain our humainity in the face of that dehumanizing possibilty.

Hi ellie.

I found this post particularly interesting because it reminded me of Ashley Wilkes' eulogy for Gerald O'Hara in "Gone with the Wind". In it he said that external threats could not break Gerald, he could only be broken from within - by his love of a person who would and could die. I think that is an important point to consider. It is easier to angry with a concrete enemy and by doing so channel one's life forces (to use Spring's terms) than to react against mortality.

Is this what you meant for me to understand? (I am a bear of very little brain and I felt that I understood only part of what you said, probably because I have experienced no comparable tragedy in my life: grandparents and great grandparents dying in their 80s after experiencing ill-health is not similar enough.)

[ellie]

Kerrie said:

Hi ellie.

I found this post particularly interesting because it reminded me of Ashley Wilkes' eulogy for Gerald O'Hara in "Gone with the Wind". In it he said that external threats could not break Gerald, he could only be broken from within - by his love of a person who would and could die. I think that is an important point to consider. It is easier to angry with a concrete enemy and by doing so channel one's life forces (to use Spring's terms) than to react against mortality.

Is this what you meant for me to understand? (I am a bear of very little brain and I felt that I understood only part of what you said, probably because I have experienced no comparable tragedy in my life: grandparents and great grandparents dying in their 80s after experiencing ill-health is not similar enough.)

Hi Kerrie-

a person after my own heart truly- poohsticks and Ashley Wilkes references in one post! Add a little Sondheim and I could swear we are twins. Seriously I was kept from naming my son and daughter after Gone with the Wind characters only by force of my husband's great charm and friend's threats that they would call Dash ( I love Hammett too) a boy called Sue if I named him Ashley or Gable!

I hope I did not give the impression I was trying to correct your take on Buffy's emergence into adulthood. Your comments inspired my thoughts-

I was not engaging in debate although i like to do that too- it is just that you did not say anything with which I took particular issue.

[RAKSHA]

SpringSummers said:

I don't think that Slayers are literally part-demon the way vampires are. I mean . . . I believe Buffy and Dracula's distinction . . . that it is Buffy's POWER that is rooted in darkness, as opposed to an actual demon being inside Buffy (in a literal sense, I mean). I say this thinking about the fact that Spike couldn't hit Buffy until she came back with her "molecular sun tan."

Having said that though, I don't mean to imply that Buffy doesn't have a darkside (we all do) or that having power that is "rooted in darkness" doesn't affect that. Buffy's power is, of course, a part of her.



This is wide-open for interpretation type territory, but my own feeling is that Dracula wasn't talking about the ' death wish" thing, but about the violence. Not that a penchant for violence, and a fascination with death, aren't related . . .



Well - I think it is all interelated, and can't be neatly sorted out.



Spike suggests that Buffy's daily dances with death has made her curious about it - again, I think we are getting a "human experience writ large" 'here. Everyone is curious about death, everyone experiences times in their lives when - for whatever reason - perhaps the deadening and numbing of daily exposure to pain and death - death itself seems very appealing.

For most of us, this isn't enough to actually take us to the point of suicide - though most people are contributory to their own deaths - people smoke, they overeat, they don't take their medicine . . . some chase death with constant and wildly risky behavior . . . why?

So - like the darkness inside Buffy, the death wish is being explored and presented as part of our common human experience.



Well - the NY Slayer fought like crazy, so I wouldn't characterize her as allowing Spike to kill her easily. But she was out there fighting everyday and taking risks and like all of us - especially people who are exposed daily to the less appealing aspects of life and the world - a part of her couldn't help but notice that "look of peace," couldn't help but want that peace. Couldn't help but want to shed that mortal coil.

Spike is suggesting that she wanted victory less than he did - maybe by a miniscule amount, but by enough to allow him to win.

Mark Twain (I think) once suggested that the reason he rejoiced at births, and cried at deaths, is that wasn't him. In other words, he wasn't the one who had to be born into this world, and he wasn't the one who got to leave.

The idea here, of course, is that we all have a death wish to some extent.

Of course, we all have a life-wish as well . . . a survival instinct and a love of life.



I think Joss & Co are suggesting we all have a death wish we struggle against. And those who survive, who thrive even, are those who struggle the hardest and give in the least, who tap in the strongest to their love of life.

No regrets!

And I definitely feel that Buffy's sacrifice at the end of Season 5 had to do with her deathwish - her weariness, her disenchantment with the world, etc - as well as her desire to save the world and Dawn.

I think that Buffy would have swan-dived off the tower even if Joyce had been alive and well, but she would not have done so with any relief in her heart that the exhausting struggle was over, only relief in that she was saving the world AND Dawn, both being her job.

Buffy and Nikki were similar in that they had stronger ties to the world than most Slayers. Buffy had Friends and a needy younger sister and even two boyfriends; Nikki had a child she was raising. Both of them exceeded the average Slayer lifespan...Spike implied that a part of Nikki was tired of it all; that could be, she might have been tired of being pulled in two different direction, Slayer's Duty v. Mother's Duty, two very strong drives that must have exhausted her since they would have come into constant conflict.

GAIL , counting down to 2000

[Kerrie]

RAKSHA said:

I think that Buffy would have swan-dived off the tower even if Joyce had been alive and well, but she would not have done so with any relief in her heart that the exhausting struggle was over, only relief in that she was saving the world AND Dawn, both being her job.

Buffy and Nikki were similar in that they had stronger ties to the world than most Slayers. Buffy had Friends and a needy younger sister and even two boyfriends; Nikki had a child she was raising. Both of them exceeded the average Slayer lifespan...Spike implied that a part of Nikki was tired of it all; that could be, she might have been tired of being pulled in two different direction, Slayer's Duty v. Mother's Duty, two very strong drives that must have exhausted her since they would have come into constant conflict.

GAIL , counting down to 2000

You are probably right Gail, but she may have remembered that Dawn was a mystical entity afterall and let her die. In season 7, Buffy suggested that she would have let Dawn die.

In any case the feeling of relief when she did die meant that there were elements of suicide present. It also meant that when she came back in season 6 she was not going to be hapy about regardless of where she had been. I suspect that the feeling of being unable to ever shake off the mortal coil would have been a large part of her depression. This is, after all, what she said and sang to Sweet.

[Kerrie]

ellie said:

Hi Kerrie-

a person after my own heart truly- poohsticks and Ashley Wilkes references in one post! Add a little Sondheim and I could swear we are twins. Seriously I was kept from naming my son and daughter after Gone with the Wind characters only by force of my husband's great charm and friend's threats that they would call Dash ( I love Hammett too) a boy called Sue if I named him Ashley or Gable!

I hope I did not give the impression I was trying to correct your take on Buffy's emergence into adulthood. Your comments inspired my thoughts-

I was not engaging in debate although i like to do that too- it is just that you did not say anything with which I took particular issue.

You did not give the impression that you were trying to correct my thoughts. I thought you were trying to elaborate them and I wasn't sure if I had successfully understood the elaborations.

PS I am sorry the name Sondheim rings a bell, but I don't know his/her work. (I am ashamed to admit it, but I became irritated with reading things I didn't like in my late teens/early 20s and so stopped reading anything new. I have barely improved - I now voluntarily read one or two things a year. I think this is being very close-minded!)

[Kerrie]

SpringSummers said:

I don't think that Slayers are literally part-demon the way vampires are. I mean . . . I believe Buffy and Dracula's distinction . . . that it is Buffy's POWER that is rooted in darkness, as opposed to an actual demon being inside Buffy (in a literal sense, I mean). I say this thinking about the fact that Spike couldn't hit Buffy until she came back with her "molecular sun tan."

Having said that though, I don't mean to imply that Buffy doesn't have a darkside (we all do) or that having power that is "rooted in darkness" doesn't affect that. Buffy's power is, of course, a part of her.



This is wide-open for interpretation type territory, but my own feeling is that Dracula wasn't talking about the ' death wish" thing, but about the violence. Not that a penchant for violence, and a fascination with death, aren't related . . .



Well - I think it is all interelated, and can't be neatly sorted out.



Spike suggests that Buffy's daily dances with death has made her curious about it - again, I think we are getting a "human experience writ large" 'here. Everyone is curious about death, everyone experiences times in their lives when - for whatever reason - perhaps the deadening and numbing of daily exposure to pain and death - death itself seems very appealing.

For most of us, this isn't enough to actually take us to the point of suicide - though most people are contributory to their own deaths - people smoke, they overeat, they don't take their medicine . . . some chase death with constant and wildly risky behavior . . . why?

So - like the darkness inside Buffy, the death wish is being explored and presented as part of our common human experience.



Well - the NY Slayer fought like crazy, so I wouldn't characterize her as allowing Spike to kill her easily. But she was out there fighting everyday and taking risks and like all of us - especially people who are exposed daily to the less appealing aspects of life and the world - a part of her couldn't help but notice that "look of peace," couldn't help but want that peace. Couldn't help but want to shed that mortal coil.

Spike is suggesting that she wanted victory less than he did - maybe by a miniscule amount, but by enough to allow him to win.

Mark Twain (I think) once suggested that the reason he rejoiced at births, and cried at deaths, is that wasn't him. In other words, he wasn't the one who had to be born into this world, and he wasn't the one who got to leave.

The idea here, of course, is that we all have a death wish to some extent.

Of course, we all have a life-wish as well . . . a survival instinct and a love of life.



I think Joss & Co are suggesting we all have a death wish we struggle against. And those who survive, who thrive even, are those who struggle the hardest and give in the least, who tap in the strongest to their love of life.



No regrets!

And I definitely feel that Buffy's sacrifice at the end of Season 5 had to do with her deathwish - her weariness, her disenchantment with the world, etc - as well as her desire to save the world and Dawn.

Thanks, Spring.

I am sorry I have been so slow to respond to this post but I have been thinking about it and I think you are right which has made me see things in another light. (If you are not feeling slightly nervous now, you should be - I am about to do a complete change of interpretation.)

After thinking long and hard about it I think you are right that everyone experiences suicidal impulses often after a pivotal event such as death of a loved one or from otherwise developing an interest in death or even from the realisation that living is just too hard/tedious.

I cannot recall all the statistics but youth suicide is a huge problem in Australia (I think it is a problem in many Western societies). Thus it would make sense that JW would address this issue. The problem is that it feels a little strange that he would choose to have it as a possible series ending that the girl who dreaded dying in season 1 would accept her destiny and willingly die fulfilling her sacred obligations and her death wish in season 5. . . Thus season 6 becomes about about dealing after an unsuccessful suicide attempt and season 7 becomes about loving life again. In this interpretation season 6 and 7 are pivotal because season 5 is unbearably depressing.

(No! I am not messing with you! This is the fair dinkum new direction of my thoughts! I feel I need this disclaimer after starting the discussion wondering whether Buffy's situation was unique and now ending it by saying that it is normal for many adolescents! :

[ellie]

Kerrie said:

You did not give the impression that you were trying to correct my thoughts. I thought you were trying to elaborate them and I wasn't sure if I had successfully understood the elaborations.

PS I am sorry the name Sondheim rings a bell, but I don't know his/her work. (I am ashamed to admit it, but I became irritated with reading things I didn't like in my late teens/early 20s and so stopped reading anything new. I have barely improved - I now voluntarily read one or two things a year. I think this is being very close-minded!)

Kerrie-

I am on record as stating that my musical tastes did not develop after my late teens- If i did not hear it before that and it is not vaguely reminiscent of that stuff- I am afraid my mind is clanged shut too.

As far as Sondheim- think lyrics to West Side Story and Gypsy ( and then he wrote Send in the Clowns- and other stuff- he became a real enthusiasm of mine a few years ago and has joined my Buffy shrine)

[RAKSHA]

Kerrie said:

You are probably right Gail, but she may have remembered that Dawn was a mystical entity afterall and let her die. In season 7, Buffy suggested that she would have let Dawn die.

In any case the feeling of relief when she did die meant that there were elements of suicide present. It also meant that when she came back in season 6 she was not going to be hapy about regardless of where she had been. I suspect that the feeling of being unable to ever shake off the mortal coil would have been a large part of her depression. This is, after all, what she said and sang to Sweet.

I disagree. I thought she told Giles that she would have let Dawn die if there was no other way, which is still a departure from her attitude of 'I'll kill anyone who comes near Dawn' in THE GIFT and being quite willing to let the world be destroyed rather than have Dawn be sacrificed.

I also see Buffy's decision to sacrifice herself rather than Dawn as a natural act of a young woman who was, until the end, feeling protective and responsible for her younger sister. Dawn may have started out as a mystical force, but she had become Buffy's sister, Joyce's daughter, and Buffy loved her.

Buffy probably felt relief as she died at the end of THE GIFT. If she had it to do over again in S7, I think she would have still sacrificed herself to save Dawn and the world, but not felt relief, just that it was her duty as a Slayer and a sister. She would have let Dawn die only if her own sacrifice would have failed to save the world.


[glow=blue,2,300]GAIL , counting down to 2000 posts[/glow]

[Anne, Old S'cubie Cat]

Kerrie said:

Thanks, Spring.

I am sorry I have been so slow to respond to this post but I have been thinking about it and I think you are right which has made me see things in another light. (If you are not feeling slightly nervous now, you should be - I am about to do a complete change of interpretation.)

After thinking long and hard about it I think you are right that everyone experiences suicidal impulses often after a pivotal event such as death of a loved one or from otherwise developing an interest in death or even from the realisation that living is just too hard/tedious.

I cannot recall all the statistics but youth suicide is a huge problem in Australia (I think it is a problem in many Western societies). Thus it would make sense that JW would address this issue. The problem is that it feels a little strange that he would choose to have it as a possible series ending that the girl who dreaded dying in season 1 would accept her destiny and willingly die fulfilling her sacred obligations and her death wish in season 5. . . Thus season 6 becomes about about dealing after an unsuccessful suicide attempt and season 7 becomes about loving life again. In this interpretation season 6 and 7 are pivotal because season 5 is unbearably depressing.

(No! I am not messing with you! This is the fair dinkum new direction of my thoughts! I feel I need this disclaimer after starting the discussion wondering whether Buffy's situation was unique and now ending it by saying that it is normal for many adolescents! :

Wow. I never thought of it that way, but I think you're right. So many layers of meaning in one little TV show.
Looking at it that way, Buffy's death in S5, and the fallout in S6 and S7 take on a whole new dimension. It becomes even more of a continuous flow of growth.

So, does this make Buffy's sharing of the Slayer power and therefore, her responsibilities, her final step to adulthood, maybe?

Again, Wow. My head is spinning. I must go think about this some more.

[SpringSummers]

Anne said:

Wow. I never thought of it that way, but I think you're right. So many layers of meaning in one little TV show.
Looking at it that way, Buffy's death in S5, and the fallout in S6 and S7 take on a whole new dimension. It becomes even more of a continuous flow of growth.

So, does this make Buffy's sharing of the Slayer power and therefore, her responsibilities, her final step to adulthood, maybe?

Again, Wow. My head is spinning. I must go think about this some more.

Definitely, it's a continuous flow of growth thing. Definitely, definitely, definitely.

And yes, the sharing of the Slayer power was a step into true adulthood. Final step? Well, I'd say no - I mean, is there such a thing?

[SpringSummers]

RAKSHA said:

I disagree. I thought she told Giles that she would have let Dawn die if there was no other way, which is still a departure from her attitude of 'I'll kill anyone who comes near Dawn' in THE GIFT and being quite willing to let the world be destroyed rather than have Dawn be sacrificed.

I also see Buffy's decision to sacrifice herself rather than Dawn as a natural act of a young woman who was, until the end, feeling protective and responsible for her younger sister. Dawn may have started out as a mystical force, but she had become Buffy's sister, Joyce's daughter, and Buffy loved her.

Buffy probably felt relief as she died at the end of THE GIFT. If she had it to do over again in S7, I think she would have still sacrificed herself to save Dawn and the world, but not felt relief, just that it was her duty as a Slayer and a sister. She would have let Dawn die only if her own sacrifice would have failed to save the world.


[glow=blue,2,300]GAIL , counting down to 2000 posts[/glow]

Buffy threw herself off that tower right after telling Dawn that the hardest thing to do in the world, was live in it. So - no coincidence there. BUT, I do agree her primary motive was to save Dawn. I mean, she wouldn't have thrown herself off, otherwise.

But those two things came together for her . . . she was feeling as if she couldn't "live in a world where these are the choices," and now, she can save Dawn and the world by sacrificing herself . . . so it's a no brainer. Off she goes.

What I think we are meant to see, in the change in Buffy as she tells Giles that she would be willing to sacrifice Dawn if she had to, is that Buffy has made the step of accepting and loving and valuing the world - the real world, with all its horrors and flaws as well as its joys and beauty - as it is.

She's no longer a child unwilling to let go of an idealized image of the world, of the people around her, and of herself - unwilling to accept it all, and love it all, for what it is.

It all happens in Season 7, and it is no coincidence, that this is the Season where she accepts and acknowledges her love for Spike, where she gets comfortable in the basement.

[SpringSummers]

Kerrie said:

Thanks, Spring.

I am sorry I have been so slow to respond to this post but I have been thinking about it and I think you are right which has made me see things in another light. (If you are not feeling slightly nervous now, you should be - I am about to do a complete change of interpretation.)

Oh no!

After thinking long and hard about it I think you are right that everyone experiences suicidal impulses often after a pivotal event such as death of a loved one or from otherwise developing an interest in death or even from the realisation that living is just too hard/tedious.

I cannot recall all the statistics but youth suicide is a huge problem in Australia (I think it is a problem in many Western societies). Thus it would make sense that JW would address this issue.

It is something that happens to many at the age it happens to Buffy, and I do agree that JW is addressing it here.

The problem is that it feels a little strange that he would choose to have it as a possible series ending that the girl who dreaded dying in season 1 would accept her destiny and willingly die fulfilling her sacred obligations and her death wish in season 5. . .

But that is exactly what happens to a lot of children, assuming they have a reasonably loving childhood, which Buffy did have. They are loved and protected and the world just seems, mostly, pretty grand. Sure, bad things happen, and the child might cry, but they have no responsibilities, and adults are around to resolve the major problems and make things better.

But as they grow, they get disillusioned. The world is different and harder than they thought it would be. Their parents have many more flaws than they realized. People you trust lie to you - and they even die on you. You get burdened with responsiblity. It all starts to eat away.

So that happened to Buffy. She's still a child in Season 1, living (mostly) in a child's world. In Season 5, she's a child trying to grow up and accept a very harsh adult world, and like many people her age, she finds it very, very hard to do.

I've heard people say BtVS should have ended there, but . . . no way. Joss wasn't done telling Buffy's story and he didn't mean to be done. If the network had forced it, then well, at least he had a neat and tidy ending. But that isn't a Joss ending. Season 7 is a Joss ending.

Thus season 6 becomes about about dealing after an unsuccessful suicide attempt and season 7 becomes about loving life again. In this interpretation season 6 and 7 are pivotal because season 5 is unbearably depressing.

You bet it does become about coming back to life and then learning to love it.

I don't think Season 5 becomes unbearably depressing though. I mean - not to the viewer. It's part of Buffy's journey . . .well, I can only say it doesn't depress me, though if it had truly ended that way, I would have been very bummed.

Buffy would have ended up like every other Slayer before her. I wanted something better for my Buffy. And I got it.

(No! I am not messing with you! This is the fair dinkum new direction of my thoughts! I feel I need this disclaimer after starting the discussion wondering whether Buffy's situation was unique and now ending it by saying that it is normal for many adolescents! :

Yes, it is normal - but like every thing for Buffy, it is writ dramatically and operatically large.

Such a good show, no?

[Nickim]

SpringSummers said:

Definitely, it's a continuous flow of growth thing. Definitely, definitely, definitely.

And yes, the sharing of the Slayer power was a step into true adulthood. Final step? Well, I'd say no - I mean, is there such a thing?

I agree, no final step, unless it's death (not a BtVS, my friends will bring me back, death). Everytime we experience something--god or bad, it's different & so are we. No matter how much we go through, we can still learn and grow everyday.

[Kerrie]

SpringSummers said:

Oh no!



It is something that happens to many at the age it happens to Buffy, and I do agree that JW is addressing it here.



But that is exactly what happens to a lot of children, assuming they have a reasonably loving childhood, which Buffy did have. They are loved and protected and the world just seems, mostly, pretty grand. Sure, bad things happen, and the child might cry, but they have no responsibilities, and adults are around to resolve the major problems and make things better.

But as they grow, they get disillusioned. The world is different and harder than they thought it would be. Their parents have many more flaws than they realized. People you trust lie to you - and they even die on you. You get burdened with responsiblity. It all starts to eat away.

So that happened to Buffy. She's still a child in Season 1, living (mostly) in a child's world. In Season 5, she's a child trying to grow up and accept a very harsh adult world, and like many people her age, she finds it very, very hard to do.

I've heard people say BtVS should have ended there, but . . . no way. Joss wasn't done telling Buffy's story and he didn't mean to be done. If the network had forced it, then well, at least he had a neat and tidy ending. But that isn't a Joss ending. Season 7 is a Joss ending.



You bet it does become about coming back to life and then learning to love it.

I don't think Season 5 becomes unbearably depressing though. I mean - not to the viewer. It's part of Buffy's journey . . .well, I can only say it doesn't depress me, though if it had truly ended that way, I would have been very bummed.

Buffy would have ended up like every other Slayer before her. I wanted something better for my Buffy. And I got it.



Yes, it is normal - but like every thing for Buffy, it is writ dramatically and operatically large.

Such a good show, no?

Okay, I pretty well like and agree with everything you have written here. I will only add that it came to me that if seasons 1 - 5 were about accepting adulthood including self-sacrifice for the good of the world, JW nicely clarified his position in seasons 6 and 7 by showing that adulthood does not mean self-sacrifice, it means sharing power. This is a nice modern interpretation of adulthood that I like quite a lot even if self-sacrifice is a lot easier. (I'll make this riddle a little easier for you and say adulthood and parenthood are the same in my personal interpretation even if they are not for everyone. I suspect the analogy could also work for careers.)

[Kerrie]

Anne said:

Wow. I never thought of it that way, but I think you're right. So many layers of meaning in one little TV show.
Looking at it that way, Buffy's death in S5, and the fallout in S6 and S7 take on a whole new dimension. It becomes even more of a continuous flow of growth.

So, does this make Buffy's sharing of the Slayer power and therefore, her responsibilities, her final step to adulthood, maybe?

Again, Wow. My head is spinning. I must go think about this some more.

According to Erikson, the issue for teens is identity. The issue for early 20s is relationships. The issue for late 20/early 30-somethings is parenthood/career. I will have to look up what is next as I have already posted that I think JW has touched on the latter stages even if he has not done with them (Buffy is still cookie-dough!). I know one of the final stages is reflection on life and either seeing it as worth-while or as missed opportunities. Realistically Buffy could travel down that little life stage especially if slayerhood does impede her potential to have a family of her own.

Edit. How could I have failed to realise that the only thing left was the mid-life crisis? This stems from the person seeking to make a contribution to the world through family and work.

For the sake of clarity for those who aren't familiar with Erikson's stages of psychological development (or maybe for those who don't recognise it in my rough and ready treatment of it) I will list the ages and the stages.

Infancy (1st year): Trust vs Mistrust.
Toddler (2nd year): Autonomy vs shame and doubt.
Pre-schooler (3-5 years): Initiative vs guilt.
Elementary school (6-puberty): Competence vs Inferiority.
Adolescence (teens): Identity vs role confusion.
Young Adulthood (20-40): Intimacy vs Isolation.
Middle Adulthood (40 - 65): Generatvity vs Stagnation.
Late Adulthood: Integrity vs Despair.