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Post by Nickim on Feb 6, 2004 13:08:22 GMT -5
Oh, my God. You are just incredible.
However did you get the idea to connect Passion with The Replacement? It seems completely unrelated -- and yet, having gone through your analysis, it's so obvious!
Really -- hats off to Spring for this astounding analysis -- and hats off to ME, for giving us both eps! ITA I'm just gonna quote Laura, 'cause she even used the little bowing smiley I was planning to use.
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 7, 2004 8:48:54 GMT -5
ITA I'm just gonna quote Laura, 'cause she even used the little bowing smiley I was planning to use. Nicki - considering everything you have been up against of late, I am especially grateful to you for taking the time to let me know you enjoyed the analysis. I hope the analysis provided you some enjoyment and distraction from the current ills . . . many good thoughts are going back out your way.
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Post by Lola m on Feb 7, 2004 11:55:04 GMT -5
Oh, my God. You are just incredible.
However did you get the idea to connect Passion with The Replacement? It seems completely unrelated -- and yet, having gone through your analysis, it's so obvious!
Really -- hats off to Spring for this astounding analysis -- and hats off to ME, for giving us both eps! I'm gonna quote Laura, too - because I had the same feeling when reading your analysis. Wow - I would never have seen a connection on my own. I've been co-ordinating my second pass through the S5 DVDs (well, probably more like 4th pass) along with your articles. It's been interesting to watch on my own, then read what you think, then watch again. And now I'll have to review 2 episodes - gosh what torture. Lola
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 7, 2004 15:50:11 GMT -5
I'm gonna quote Laura, too - because I had the same feeling when reading your analysis. Wow - I would never have seen a connection on my own. I've been co-ordinating my second pass through the S5 DVDs (well, probably more like 4th pass) along with your articles. It's been interesting to watch on my own, then read what you think, then watch again. And now I'll have to review 2 episodes - gosh what torture. Lola Lola: It is especially nice to hear from n'ubies. Thanks for letting me know you liked the analysis. I assume the 2 eps you intend to review are Passion and The Replacement. I think you'll enjoy doing that . . . once I noticed the references, I had to go back and watch Passion and it was fun looking for all the small references and similarities.
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Post by LadyDi on Feb 12, 2004 20:06:50 GMT -5
Speaking of I told you so's, I loved your latest analysis! I had some idea of what you'd cover here (Buffy and Riley's discussion in the car, Riley's admission to Xander), but you went so much deeper. The connections you've drawn btwn this ep. and Passion are so obvious (now), all I can say is, "Why didn't I think of that?"
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 13, 2004 10:35:54 GMT -5
Speaking of I told you so's, I loved your latest analysis! I had some idea of what you'd cover here (Buffy and Riley's discussion in the car, Riley's admission to Xander), but you went so much deeper. The connections you've drawn btwn this ep. and Passion are so obvious (now), all I can say is, "Why didn't I think of that?" LadyDi! I wondered if I was gonna hear from you on this one. It surprised me when I started to to watch the episode with my "analysis" hat on, to realize that this fun, "filler," Xander-centric episode was also really pivotal in understanding Buffy's approach to Riley, and later, in a different way, to Spike. Many fans seemed to expect Buffy's behavior toward Riley or Spike to be related to what they deserved or earned . . . but really, people's behavior toward others is always, primarily, about themselves. People don't act like they love you, or hate you, because you've earned their love or hate. Often, their behavior toward you isn't even about whether they love you or hate you. They can act like they love you, and actually hate you - and vice-versa. But here is what is consistent: Someone's behavior toward you is always about what they can handle and can't handle, it is always about what hurts "more than they can bear," or what they are afraid might hurt, "more than they can bear." Their fears and outward reactions may be logical or they may be wholly illogical. Their reactions and fears may have some relationship to something about you and your behavior, but they might have none. They might have some relationship to how the person truly feels about you, but they might have none. But always, those fears and behavior will be about that person's current - in that moment - capacity to love, risk, interact - to live in the world. Well . . . how'd I get on that soapbox? Time to get off . . .
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Post by Kerrie on Feb 15, 2004 16:38:02 GMT -5
LadyDi! I wondered if I was gonna hear from you on this one. It surprised me when I started to to watch the episode with my "analysis" hat on, to realize that this fun, "filler," Xander-centric episode was also really pivotal in understanding Buffy's approach to Riley, and later, in a different way, to Spike. Many fans seemed to expect Buffy's behavior toward Riley or Spike to be related to what they deserved or earned . . . but really, people's behavior toward others is always, primarily, about themselves. People don't act like they love you, or hate you, because you've earned their love or hate. Often, their behavior toward you isn't even about whether they love you or hate you. They can act like they love you, and actually hate you - and vice-versa. But here is what is consistent: Someone's behavior toward you is always about what they can handle and can't handle, it is always about what hurts "more than they can bear," or what they are afraid might hurt, "more than they can bear." Their fears and outward reactions may be logical or they may be wholly illogical. Their reactions and fears may have some relationship to something about you and your behavior, but they might have none. They might have some relationship to how the person truly feels about you, but they might have none. But always, those fears and behavior will be about that person's current - in that moment - capacity to love, risk, interact - to live in the world. Well . . . how'd I get on that soapbox? Time to get off . . . Interesting idea, Spring. With more than a grain of truth, I suspect.
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Post by Linda on Mar 7, 2004 18:22:55 GMT -5
Hi Spring,
ITA with everyone who bowed to your excellent analysis.
Wow.
On the surface, this episode seemed like a funny standalone. Thanks for going so deeply into it and for pointing out all of the parallels with Passion. You add so much to my enjoyment of this series.
Brava!
Linda, who always hurt for Riley in the car scene...
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Post by SpringSummers on Mar 7, 2004 19:52:43 GMT -5
Hi Spring, ITA with everyone who bowed to your excellent analysis. Wow. On the surface, this episode seemed like a funny standalone. Thanks for going so deeply into it and for pointing out all of the parallels with Passion. You add so much to my enjoyment of this series. Brava! Linda, who always hurt for Riley in the car scene... Yes - Marc B is so good in this one. The car scene, and then his delivery at the end: "But she doesn't love me." It reaches out and grabs; you can feel what he's feeling despite his low-key, Rileyesque approach.
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Post by Lissa on Aug 5, 2004 12:25:30 GMT -5
I have read most of your analysis, which are of an extreme high quality. I never realized the meaning behind Replacement, and it made watch this episode a copule of times. I wanted to add a few things.
1. Spike got shot first by Toth and misses, Xander got hit, because he pushed Buffy away. What would be the meaning by the Toth's attempt to hit Spike? What would have happened if Spike would have been hit? Would Spuffy still have been possible after they would have been rejoined?
2. There is a ConfidentXander (CX) and a InsecureXander (IX). Notice how InsecureXander goes investigating on his own what this so called demon, CX, does and attacks him on his own, while CX goes immidiately to Buffy. CX goes back to defend Anya and is thinks first of Anya, above all. IX is so smart to have gun and immediately shouts for the gun to fight Toth. Even before Buffy attacks. It's IX who is the one that fights, whatever it is. It's CX who protects and placed Anya on top. It's IX who belongs in the fight against evil and it's CX who belongs in the real world.
3. When Xander got put together he standing in IX's cloths and Anya says she wants Xander to put it back. There is more then the obvious sex joke, it's Anya who wants CX and not IX.
Willow recognizes IX as the Xander and Buffy had doubts by CX. Anya not. To Anya CX=IX. Does that mean that the shot is somewhere a magical cause for the walk away from alter in Hell Bell's?
4. Riley is obviously the Replacement for Angel. But, does Xander realize at the end that Anya might be also be a replacement? And for whom? Shot in the dark: Faith. It's Faith who had him first and then turns evil. Just like Angel was Buffy's first and turns evil.
5. Another possible replacement. In Triangle the first serious step towards a Spike/Xander bonding has been made. Riley, Xander's friend, has been gone. Does Xander realize in the end that Riley might break up with Buffy and therefor he loses his only bud? I ask this for a particular reason: Spike.
Is Spike a replacement for Jesse for Xander?
The vampire he had accidently killed and therefore lost a close male friend, which he desperately needs for advise. And guilt for having killed Jesse. We all notice how much Spike and Xander look like each other, and in the last three eps of S5 they became friends. (Xander made the first move in Spiral with the lighter and when he smashes Xander on his head for the Ben/Glory misunderstanding Spike actually laughs. (Did you noticed that?)
If so, is that one of the reasons why he invited Spike on his wedding? The only male presence on his wedding who could help him with his doubts.
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Post by SpringSummers on Aug 5, 2004 13:36:01 GMT -5
I have read most of your analysis, which are of an extreme high quality. I never realized the meaning behind Replacement, and it made watch this episode a copule of times. I wanted to add a few things. 1. Spike got shot first by Toth and misses, Xander got hit, because he pushed Buffy away. What would be the meaning by the Toth's attempt to hit Spike? What would have happened if Spike would have been hit? Would Spuffy still have been possible after they would have been rejoined? First, thanks so much, Lissa, for the feedback on my analyses. I am glad you are enjoying them!Second: I don't think Toth was trying to hit Spike - he was aiming for Buffy all the way. I do think that Toth hitting Spike's lamp had a bit of the metaphorical going for it. Spike, trying to find light in the dump. Evil getting in the way of Spike's plan to get a little light. Interesing thought about what the two Spikes would have been like if he had been hit. My guess is a "William" type and a "Big Bad" type. When Xander got back together he was completely back to normal, so I guess Spike would have been too. Interesting observations. IX is the bigger risk-taker with physical risks; CX with emotional risks. I thought this meant more that Anya wanted them both. Though of course, CX was much more emotionally available to her, so you may have something there. I did believe Riley though, when he told Xander that Anya wanted "the whole package." My opinion is that the shot from Toth is unrelated to the walk-away in Hell's Bells. Except to say that it helps us see that InsecureXander exists and has a negative impact on the A/X relationship. I hadn't thought about Anya as a "replacement" but you are right, that implication exists, since the parallels are X is to A as B is to R. My guess would be that Anya is a "Buffy-replacement." I think Xander still has an underlying thing for Buffy at this point. I don't think he really, truly gets 100% over it until Season 7. I don't know if I'd put it in terms of Spike being a "Jesse replacement" but I do think that Spike filled the shoes of being Xander's buddy after Oz left. It wasn't a very traditional buddy relationship - all the snarking and neither one ever really admitting that he liked the other the slightest little bit - but when it came to buddies, they didn't really have anyone but each other (Well - Spike got Clem in Season 6). Again, thanks for the feedback and interesting thoughts. Feel free and welcome to add your opinions and comments to any of the analyses.
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Post by Kate (K8) on Aug 5, 2004 13:46:21 GMT -5
I have read most of your analysis, which are of an extreme high quality. I never realized the meaning behind Replacement, and it made watch this episode a copule of times. I wanted to add a few things. 1. Spike got shot first by Toth and misses, Xander got hit, because he pushed Buffy away. What would be the meaning by the Toth's attempt to hit Spike? What would have happened if Spike would have been hit? Would Spuffy still have been possible after they would have been rejoined? 2. There is a ConfidentXander (CX) and a InsecureXander (IX). Notice how InsecureXander goes investigating on his own what this so called demon, CX, does and attacks him on his own, while CX goes immidiately to Buffy. CX goes back to defend Anya and is thinks first of Anya, above all. IX is so smart to have gun and immediately shouts for the gun to fight Toth. Even before Buffy attacks. It's IX who is the one that fights, whatever it is. It's CX who protects and placed Anya on top. It's IX who belongs in the fight against evil and it's CX who belongs in the real world. 3. When Xander got put together he standing in IX's cloths and Anya says she wants Xander to put it back. There is more then the obvious sex joke, it's Anya who wants CX and not IX. Willow recognizes IX as the Xander and Buffy had doubts by CX. Anya not. To Anya CX=IX. Does that mean that the shot is somewhere a magical cause for the walk away from alter in Hell Bell's? 4. Riley is obviously the Replacement for Angel. But, does Xander realize at the end that Anya might be also be a replacement? And for whom? Shot in the dark: Faith. It's Faith who had him first and then turns evil. Just like Angel was Buffy's first and turns evil. 5. Another possible replacement. In Triangle the first serious step towards a Spike/Xander bonding has been made. Riley, Xander's friend, has been gone. Does Xander realize in the end that Riley might break up with Buffy and therefor he loses his only bud? I ask this for a particular reason: Spike. Is Spike a replacement for Jesse for Xander? The vampire he had accidently killed and therefore lost a close male friend, which he desperately needs for advise. And guilt for having killed Jesse. We all notice how much Spike and Xander look like each other, and in the last three eps of S5 they became friends. (Xander made the first move in Spiral with the lighter and when he smashes Xander on his head for the Ben/Glory misunderstanding Spike actually laughs. (Did you noticed that?) If so, is that one of the reasons why he invited Spike on his wedding? The only male presence on his wedding who could help him with his doubts. Great ideas Lissa. Gonna watch the episode tommorow and check out the bit about CX and IX. Liked the comparison of Faith and Angel especially. Would be interesting to see split Spike (though supose would have ruined fool for love) Agree on Sping's analyses too. Love reading them and always checking to see if the next one's up yet.
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Post by Lissa on Aug 5, 2004 14:22:09 GMT -5
Great ideas Lissa. Gonna watch the episode tommorow and check out the bit about CX and IX. Liked the comparison of Faith and Angel especially. Would be interesting to see split Spike (though supose would have ruined fool for love) Agree on Sping's analyses too. Love reading them and always checking to see if the next one's up yet. Thanks, K8. I noticed one more thing. I wrote: Notice how InsecureXander goes investigating on his own what this so called demon, CX, does and attacks him on his own, while CX goes immidiately to Buffy. Does that mean that CX doesn't investigate IX? Or in other words doesn't his confident self not face his own fears, (and goes to Buffy for help). Both Xander's go to Buffy for help and when insecureXander realizes that Buffy isn't there for him he really realizes he's a lozer. (And who wasn't there for him at the wedding . . .) Anyway, Xander totally sees Buffy as his hero. Interesting thoughts for a Spike. Would both Spike's (Or DemonSpike / WilliamSpike go to Buffy? DemonSpike confident enough to kill Buffy and WilliamSpike for her love. Who would win? And after having put back together, would William be strong enough for his demon NOT to attack Buffy?
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Post by Kate (K8) on Aug 5, 2004 15:05:30 GMT -5
Thanks, K8. I noticed one more thing. I wrote: Notice how InsecureXander goes investigating on his own what this so called demon, CX, does and attacks him on his own, while CX goes immidiately to Buffy. Does that mean that CX doesn't investigate IX? Or in other words doesn't his confident self not face his own fears, (and goes to Buffy for help). Both Xander's go to Buffy for help and when insecureXander realizes that Buffy isn't there for him he really realizes he's a lozer. (And who wasn't there for him at the wedding . . .) Anyway, Xander totally sees Buffy as his hero. Interesting thoughts for a Spike. Would both Spike's (Or DemonSpike / WilliamSpike go to Buffy? DemonSpike confident enough to kill Buffy and WilliamSpike for her love. Who would win? And after having put back together, would William be strong enough for his demon NOT to attack Buffy? Yeah, would have thought confidence would allow someone to face their fears. Buffy's help and attention to him seem to be very important to Xander (from when he first had a crush on her to his worst fear being not noticed in Fear Itself). More Spike-split questions: If WillamSpike was separated out from the demon part would DemonSpike be able to attack WilliamSpike with the chip still present? and would there be two chips? would he be separated into William and Demon or just confident and insecure like Xander? I think DemonSpike/ConfidentSpike would win unless the other one got lucky by getting help or trying something clever and the overconfidence becoming a weakness. What WilliamSpike would do would depend whether he realises his love for Buffy before WholeSpike does in the next episode. DemonSpike would definitely come up with some ambitious plan to get rid of Buffy once and for all.
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Post by Lissa on Aug 5, 2004 15:24:07 GMT -5
Yeah, would have thought confidence would allow someone to face their fears. Buffy's help and attention to him seem to be very important to Xander (from when he first had a crush on her to his worst fear being not noticed in Fear Itself). More Spike-split questions: If WillamSpike was separated out from the demon part would DemonSpike be able to attack WilliamSpike with the chip still present? and would there be two chips? would he be separated into William and Demon or just confident and insecure like Xander? I think DemonSpike/ConfidentSpike would win unless the other one got lucky by getting help or trying something clever and the overconfidence becoming a weakness. What WilliamSpike would do would depend whether he realises his love for Buffy before WholeSpike does in the next episode. DemonSpike would definitely come up with some ambitious plan to get rid of Buffy once and for all. Xander definitely fears not be noticed for sure the most. Or not having *Buffy* notice him? One or two Chips? Uhm, very interesting question. Could be the split up in Chipless Spike or Chipped Spike. (Good reason for Toth to fire on him). DemonSpike wins in a normal fight from WilliamSpike, I'm sure. But, could WilliamSpike get help?
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