|
Post by SpringSummers on Aug 6, 2004 5:54:37 GMT -5
Now....Get It Done is interesting because Xander is the one person who has the courage to stand up to her venting...and remarkably, she DOES ease up a little when speaking to him. I can't imagine anyone else - other than Spike or Dawn, perhaps - who had that kind of influence with her at that time. Willow was a shadow of her former self, Giles was...whatever the Hell he was, Anya did little more than bitch and moan....and all the rest (from Kennedy on down) were irrelevant. Xander's part in Season 7 was so tiny...but the one important storyline was his emergence as the steady right hand man he'd always wanted to be for Buffy. Or, to steal an analogy from Christopher Golden, Riker to Buffy's Picard. Then his eye came out, and he lost the will to hold it together for a few days. That was all it took. Still, in the end, I believe (in Buffy's mind, at least) Xander has supplanted Willow's position as her most trusted friend. It wasn't just symbolic that she wanted Dawn with him. Xander would lay down his life for the women he loves...much like Spike, as a matter of fact. Those two have a lot in common. And I'm suddenly wondering if this discussion belongs in a Season 5 episode analysis. Spring, if you're reading this....sorry. I get caught up in the Xander-love, you know. The Xander love and exploration of Xander's character is perfectly appropriate in discussion of The Replacement! No need to hold back. I liked Season 7 Xander. A lot. By the end of the Season, he had finally gotten it together and come into his own. He was over his Buffy-crush and he was serving the cause of good for his own reasons and not to impress Buffy or be near Buffy or anything like that anymore. (He battled for the cause of good valiantly in the past as well, but there was always a touch of "doing it for Buffy" instead of doing it purely for himself, as something he'd be doing, even if he wasn't ga-ga over Buffy). He and the others were wrong to cast Buffy out, but their actions were understandable in context, most especially for Xander, who unlike the others, had just suffered the immediate, grave, and personal loss of one of the only two eyes he has. I thought it was all very "Season 4" only adult-version:Built up venting that needs to happen, happens. Nasty, hurtful words are said and decisions are made in the heat of the moment - as everyone confronts Buffy, then Spike confronts everyone. In Season 4, it is Buffy wrongly casting THEM out ("no prophecy about a Slayer and her FRIENDS!"), and in Season 7 it is them wrongly casting Buffy out. Spike is trying to weaken Buffy in Season 4, but trying to strengthen her in Season 7. But it all turns out the same way: They all get together in the end, even Spike, and they fight the good fight.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Aug 6, 2004 5:59:39 GMT -5
Hi Rob! I think Xander's unfortunate lack of screentime in S-7 was due to his being the first of the Scoobies to have reached a steady maturity. He took care of himself and offered support to Buffy, Dawn and the others. Confident Xander in ascendance. I think the only time Insecure Xander (or maybe I am thinking of Emotional Xander) seemed to emerge in S-7 was in regards to Anya. The fight with Buffy over Anya in Selfless was significant, fundamental and forgiven. Because Anya proved Xander right in the end with her willingness to redeem her final act of vengeance. And may I just add that steadfast Xander was an especial joy to behold in Him. He was faced with his old high school traumas, Spike as a roomie, and all his women friends going off the deep end and he saved them all again. With humor and style. **sigh** They still should have found some other stories besides those and Potential to let Xander show his stuff. Linda, although thank goodness they didn't take him the Cordy/AtS route ... Ditto on the "Him" observation. I specifically noticed that Xander, when confronted with Buffy-in-a-skirt straddling a blonde guy, showed us that he had learned from the first time (with the Buffybot): THIS TIME, he knew immediately that something was wrong - that wasn't Buffy. And he took charge of the situation. There was a lot of that, throughout "Him" - evidence of our characters' growth since the High School days.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Aug 6, 2004 6:04:47 GMT -5
I have read that line too. :eyepatch: Which novel was it again? The Gatekeeper Triology? Anyway, if Xander is the Riker to Buffy's Picard, that means he is her first officer. And the first officer takes care of the personel. Makes sure they feel at home, get the right jobs, etc. And looks out for the captain's safety. He does indeed do all those things and has most definitely the skill required. Would that mean that Giles is the Admiral of the Slayerfleet? And Willow chief engineer of the Enterprise? Oh! Fun game: Spike = Worf Dawn = Wesley Crusher Faith = Counselor Troy Buffybot = Data ??
|
|
|
Post by Lissa on Aug 6, 2004 8:18:26 GMT -5
Oh! Fun game: Spike = Worf Dawn = Wesley Crusher Faith = Counselor Troy Buffybot = Data ?? Faith Counselor Troy I agree. (Although there was this chick that had a bad past and later betrayed Picard. Ansign Ro.) Data with his emotion ship = Ensouled Spike?? Just like Data needs to adjust to his newfound emotions, Spike has to deal with his newfound soul. Both struggling to become more human. Although Worf has human/Klingon isssues, like Spike has human/Demon issues. Although BuffyBot = normal Data. Including a bit more trek verse. Commander Benjamin Sisko = Robin Wood (Making commercial for his own show and had also problems with Picard). Kennedy = Tom Paris (Comparison made between oldXander and Tom Paris, with Buffy being Janeway). Andrew = Reginald Barclay (my favorite Star Trek character, together with Data.) Anya = Seven of Nine Anya is truely one of the most original characters I know. It's hard to compare her to someone else. S4/S5Spike has also strong resemblence with Garak, both character went to the 'enemy' for survival and became attached and very valueble in the end. (Only Spike is a lot hotter Garak/Nog interactions reminds me alot of Spike/Xander or Spike/Andrew Dawn too.
|
|
|
Post by Lissa on Aug 6, 2004 8:40:32 GMT -5
He and the others were wrong to cast Buffy out, but their actions were understandable in context, most especially for Xander, who unlike the others, had just suffered the immediate, grave, and personal loss of one of the only two eyes he has. It was wrong to cast her out. But, Buffy was wrong too. I want to make three points. 1. Why didn't they kill Caleb the first time. Why did they retreat? Twice was Caleb on the ground. First time a few moments before Xander was caught and the second time after he was caught. 2. What would have happened if they did agree with her. How would Buffy respond if another girl would be killed for nothing. She really would break down. And Xander new that. The price to high didn't only meant for himself, but even more for her. This was a mission to be done by her and only her *alone*. (Or with a small dedicated group.) That's why it went wrong the first time. And Xander knew that. (Hinting back to point 1). 3. Xander looked away when she talked about it not being a democracy. Just in get in done, Xander doesn't like her being a dictator. (Reference to S1 Nightmares, Xander has Nazi issues.) Xander is modeled after Alexander the Great. With Alex = CX and Xander = IX. (Remember, Willow called him Xander and she knew him the best as IX). Alexander the Great was a leader who inspired his men. He actually took care to know them, listen to them, just like complete Xander is. Total Xander = Alexander the Great. But, Buffy is the one endowed with Superpowers. And Xander knows that. He (the only one in the group) doesn't question her being the leader for just having been given the powers. He has accept her as the leader a long time ago. But, the true leader is Xander. When they had resurrected Buffy, Spike didn't go to Willow for an explanation, he went to Xander. Like Rob said, everybody listens to him. When Willow went down, it was Xander who brought her back. Xander was the leader of the pack. S7 Xander is a leader who had learned to stay in the background. I would have loved to see Buffy do that too. Freely given her leadership to Faith. That would have been marvelous. But, she can't , because she is The Slayer. Xander knows AND Spike knows.
|
|
|
Post by Lissa on Aug 6, 2004 8:48:27 GMT -5
Come to think of it. Alexander the Great was extremely successfull. He was THE inspiration for Ceaser. Ceaser broke down the republic and made himself the dictator. (He had the power.) He was very successfull too, but in the end he died by betrayel. Obviously I mean Buffy = Ceaser in this comparison. But, Ceaser didn't have a real lover to protect her like Buffy has
|
|
|
Post by Lissa on Aug 6, 2004 8:59:15 GMT -5
In Season 4, it is Buffy wrongly casting THEM out ("no prophecy about a Slayer and her FRIENDS!"), and in Season 7 it is them wrongly casting Buffy out. Spike is trying to weaken Buffy in Season 4, but trying to strengthen her in Season 7. But it all turns out the same way: They all get together in the end, even Spike, and they fight the good fight. Interesting view. But, this was about the kitchen scene, not what he said to her. He treated them like they have meant nothing while Spike knows that Buffy needs them. I simply considered it as a emotional outburst and nothing more. And I don't agree with Rob that Spike was calling them as a group traitors. He said it to *Xander*. Spike knows people listen to him. He knows Xander is the true leader. This was an exchange between the two men. But, Spike doesn't know everything, he doesn't know that Xander had already given a speech in favor of Buffy, and he hasn't acquinted himself with the girls. Spike doesn't really know what is going on and simply spoke with his newfound soul/love.
|
|
|
Post by Kate (K8) on Aug 6, 2004 9:18:21 GMT -5
It was wrong to cast her out. But, Buffy was wrong too. I want to make three points. 1. Why didn't they kill Caleb the first time. Why did they retreat? Twice was Caleb on the ground. First time a few moments before Xander was caught and the second time after he was caught. 2. What would have happened if they did agree with her. How would Buffy respond if another girl would be killed for nothing. She really would break down. And Xander new that. The price to high didn't only meant for himself, but even more for her. This was a mission to be done by her and only her *alone*. (Or with a small dedicated group.) That's why it went wrong the first time. And Xander knew that. (Hinting back to point 1). 3. Xander looked away when she talked about it not being a democracy. Just in get in done, Xander doesn't like her being a dictator. (Reference to S1 Nightmares, Xander has Nazi issues.) Xander is modeled after Alexander the Great. With Alex = CX and Xander = IX. (Remember, Willow called him Xander and she knew him the best as IX). Alexander the Great was a leader who inspired his men. He actually took care to know them, listen to them, just like complete Xander is. Total Xander = Alexander the Great. But, Buffy is the one endowed with Superpowers. And Xander knows that. He (the only one in the group) doesn't question her being the leader for just having been given the powers. He has accept her as the leader a long time ago. But, the true leader is Xander. When they had resurrected Buffy, Spike didn't go to Willow for an explanation, he went to Xander. Like Rob said, everybody listens to him. When Willow went down, it was Xander who brought her back. Xander was the leader of the pack. S7 Xander is a leader who had learned to stay in the background. I would have loved to see Buffy do that too. Freely given her leadership to Faith. That would have been marvelous. But, she can't , because she is The Slayer. Xander knows AND Spike knows. I can remember him being called Alex only once in Tabula Rasa when he, Willow, Tara and Dawn are in the sewers and he's the one doing all the vampire killing. Watched the episode this afternoon and noticed this was another time Joss showed guns are bad (IX almost killed himself by shooting CX). So question: When was the very first use of a gun in the Jossverse? - doh. Just realised Darla used guns in Angel which I only watched today (didn't do her much good though). Agree that NormalXander is more IX than CX and about him being in IX clothes - Why, locigally, should NormalXander be soaked like IX if he's a blend of both Xanders? When Xander got put back together he seemed to change into clothes which were inbetween the extremes of CX and IX.
|
|
|
Post by Lissa on Aug 6, 2004 10:37:50 GMT -5
Watched the episode this afternoon and noticed this was another time Joss showed guns are bad (IX almost killed himself by shooting CX). So question: When was the very first use of a gun in the Jossverse? - doh. Just realised Darla used guns in Angel which I only watched today (didn't do her much good though). I think in Haloween, where Xander's toy gun changes in a real one and he himself in a soldier. He almost shot Spike
|
|
|
Post by Lissa on Aug 6, 2004 10:55:09 GMT -5
It's not so much that he wants us to show that they are bad. But, that you have to be careful and that you can't use it to solve all problems. (Xander almost shot himself to solve his own internal problems. That's a good one, K8, hadn't realized that one myself.) Also, in a bigger scale, like S4 with the military, weapons can't be used to fight every fight. (Probably politically meant). Notice how you (if you're sarcastic enough and use Spring's comparison of S7 with S4 ) can see the thing that Caleb mysteriously hides are the mysterious weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Buffy = Bush. Power has been given to her. Spike = Dick Cheney? (Loyal and believes in her) Giles = member of the UN? Council = UN Xander = Collin Powell? Or the wounded soldier? The SIT's = the soldiers drafted in this war, and not ready to fight. Dawn = people who votes. Wood, Faith and Kennedy = The opposition
|
|
|
Post by Kate (K8) on Aug 6, 2004 11:29:40 GMT -5
It's not so much that he wants us to show that they are bad. But, that you have to be careful and that you can't use it to solve all problems. (Xander almost shot himself to solve his own internal problems. That's a good one, K8, hadn't realized that one myself.) Also, in a bigger scale, like S4 with the military, weapons can't be used to fight every fight(Probably politically meant). Notice how you (if you're sarcastic enough and use Spring's comparison of S7 with S4 ) can see the thing that Caleb mysteriously hides are the mysterious weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Buffy = Bush. Power has been given to her. Spike = Dick Cheney? (Loyal and believes in her) Giles = member of the UN? Council = UN Xander = Collin Powell? Or the wounded soldier? The SIT's = the soldiers drafted in this war, and not ready to fight. Dawn = people who votes. Wood, Faith and Kennedy = The opposition Also with season six finale and Willow. Interesting comparison bout Caleb hiding things and Iraq. Not gonna comment to much bout political aspect and Iraq War since seems to be lot of uncertainties, controversy and strong general public opinions at the moment. Also might spoil enjoyment if think that Joss is trying to force what he thinks about this kinda thing on us. Can't remember all of what happens in Halloween so might have a look at that later (if I can get acess to DVD player ). Continuing Star Trek comparison: Who would Giles be?
|
|
|
Post by Lissa on Aug 6, 2004 11:54:28 GMT -5
Also with season six finale and Willow. Interesting comparison bout Caleb hiding things and Iraq. Not gonna comment to much bout political aspect and Iraq War since seems to be lot of uncertainties, controversy and strong general public opinions at the moment. Also might spoil enjoyment if think that Joss is trying to force what he thinks about this kinda thing on us. Can't remember all of what happens in Halloween so might have a look at that later (if I can get acess to DVD player ). Continuing Star Trek comparison: Who would Giles be? I know, I'm getting into the over analysis thing way too much. Giles? I actually have no really good idea. I think as he is post S7 the Watcher's Council leader, I would say an admiral. But, that would make all the core scoobies more or less admirals and Buffy is the leader. Or at least was the leader. So, in the normal scoobie group, he's Buffy's personal advisor. But, I have no idea Also a comparison with SG1 Xander = Jack Jack and Xander are the smartasses. They lend humor to lighten the mood and to keep everyone from going crazy. Buffy and Teal'c are the fighters, though Buffy is also the real leader of her group. Carter = Willow (The brains and Willow of course also magic. But Carter has magical hands with Alient tech. Giles = Daniel (The bookworms and the minds. A certain wisdom).
|
|
|
Post by Kate (K8) on Aug 6, 2004 12:11:38 GMT -5
I know, I'm getting into the over analysis thing way too much. Giles? I actually have no really good idea. I think as he is post S7 the Watcher's Council leader, I would say an admiral. But, that would make all the core scoobies more or less admirals and Buffy is the leader. Or at least was the leader. So, in the normal scoobie group, he's Buffy's personal advisor. But, I have no idea Also a comparison with SG1 Xander = Jack Jack and Xander are the smartasses. They lend humor to lighten the mood and to keep everyone from going crazy. Buffy and Teal'c are the fighters, though Buffy is also the real leader of her group. Carter = Willow (The brains and Willow of course also magic. But Carter has magical hands with Alient tech. Giles = Daniel (The bookworms and the minds. A certain wisdom). Don't think so really. Many people here have probably made bigger leaps so don't worry. ... And Jack also is the one who sometimes is like "Huh" when Carter and Daniel go all technical talking like Xander, although still clever, does sometimes. Daniel went away I think didn't he? Like Giles went away in season six and when Buffy went to Heaven. Gonna think on Star-Trek-Giles bit more.
|
|
|
Post by LadyDi on Aug 7, 2004 9:52:54 GMT -5
It was wrong to cast her out. But, Buffy was wrong too. I want to make three points. 1. Why didn't they kill Caleb the first time. Why did they retreat? Twice was Caleb on the ground. First time a few moments before Xander was caught and the second time after he was caught. 2. What would have happened if they did agree with her. How would Buffy respond if another girl would be killed for nothing. She really would break down. And Xander new that. The price to high didn't only meant for himself, but even more for her. This was a mission to be done by her and only her *alone*. (Or with a small dedicated group.) That's why it went wrong the first time. And Xander knew that. (Hinting back to point 1). 3. Xander looked away when she talked about it not being a democracy. Just in get in done, Xander doesn't like her being a dictator. (Reference to S1 Nightmares, Xander has Nazi issues.) Xander is modeled after Alexander the Great. With Alex = CX and Xander = IX. (Remember, Willow called him Xander and she knew him the best as IX). Alexander the Great was a leader who inspired his men. He actually took care to know them, listen to them, just like complete Xander is. Total Xander = Alexander the Great. But, Buffy is the one endowed with Superpowers. And Xander knows that. He (the only one in the group) doesn't question her being the leader for just having been given the powers. He has accept her as the leader a long time ago. But, the true leader is Xander. When they had resurrected Buffy, Spike didn't go to Willow for an explanation, he went to Xander. Like Rob said, everybody listens to him. When Willow went down, it was Xander who brought her back. Xander was the leader of the pack. S7 Xander is a leader who had learned to stay in the background. I would have loved to see Buffy do that too. Freely given her leadership to Faith. That would have been marvelous. But, she can't , because she is The Slayer. Xander knows AND Spike knows. Unfortunately, Buffy can't just hand over the reins. Ever since Giles started bringing in Potentials, he's put all the responsibility on her to be their leader. Problem is, she's never really been trained as a leader. Historically, the Slayer fights alone. I was taking a business mgmt class around the time s7 was winding down, and I could see all sorts of things Buffy was doing wrong, 'cuz she just didn't know any better. IMO, Giles really let her down in this area.
|
|
|
Post by Rob on Aug 8, 2004 2:46:14 GMT -5
2. What would have happened if they did agree with her. How would Buffy respond if another girl would be killed for nothing. She really would break down. And Xander knew that The price to high didn't only meant for himself, but even more for her. This was a mission to be done by her and only her *alone*. (Or with a small dedicated group.) That's why it went wrong the first time. And Xander knew that I can see the points you're making here, and they are valid. While I give Xander all the credit in the world for being far more intelligent than anyone realizes, I'd be more inclined to say Xander SENSED it than intellectually processed it. Xander's great gift has always been emotional perception. Also in fairness to Buffy, he had issues of his own at that moment, mainly with Buffy's seeming lack of real emotion over his injury. Now, we as an audience know that Buffy is devastated, and fiercely protective of him in her confrontation with Caleb at the school. In her mind, however, she can't allow anyone - even those she trusts most - to see her showing weakness. Xander just needed to know she cared. Now, he probably should have just accepted it as a given - he knows as well as anyone how much stress she is under, and how much Buffy loves him - but in this case, he was weakened and hurt. He needed to lean on her a little, and Buffy didn't have it in her to give him that right then. I don't blame her for that...it's just how things were. An analogy can be drawn between his actions in "Empty Places" and the oft-discussed "Becoming Part II." Let's look at how Xander is of two minds in both situations: 1. In "Becoming" he doesn't inform Buffy of Willow's intentions, partially because he instinctively realizes Buffy will lose any sort of fight in which she isn't going all out. "Becoming Part 1" makes it pretty clear Angelus would have killed her if her "heart was just not in this." On the other hand, his jealousy and hatred toward Angel cannot be ignored, and clearly played a role in his decision. It can be said he did the right thing with some very wrong reasons swirling through his mind. 2. In "Empty Places," Xander instinctively understands that going back into that vineyard in the same fashion simply cannot work. More people will needlessly die. On the other hand, would he be vocally against her if she hadn't kept her feelings from him after his injury? Personally, I don't believe so. I think he would have probably backed her up, with the proviso that they come up with a better plan. By the time Buffy mentions listening to strategy options, it's a case of too little, too late. She'd lost everyone the moment they realized Xander didn't have her back. In short, during a crucial moment, Xander was again of two minds. I'm not sure Buffy ever completely understood just how indispensable Xander was until the night everything went wrong. Season 7 was meant to be an exploration of power. Thing is, power isn't just manifested by how hard someone hits or what spells they weave. There are different kinds of strength, and Buffy needed to learn to respect them for what they are. Two episodes later, she finally tells him just how much he means to her...and it was long overdue.
|
|