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Post by William the Bloody on Feb 28, 2004 21:32:40 GMT -5
Let the discussion begin.
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Post by Cal on Feb 29, 2004 9:11:06 GMT -5
Great analysis, Spring! One of my favourite Spike scenes here (there are so many, I've lost count ). Out.for.a.walk. bitch. Love it! Spike is really showing his vulnerable "William" side here, as you so rightly pointed out. I love vulnerable Spike. JM is so good at this! He makes me "feel" what Spike is feeling. Very few actors are capable of that. I am eagerly looking forward to your next analysis, Spring. They are a breath of fresh air, exactly what we need at the moment. Thank you so much! Cal
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 29, 2004 9:20:29 GMT -5
Great analysis, Spring! One of my favourite Spike scenes here (there are so many, I've lost count ). Out.for.a.walk. bitch. Love it! Spike is really showing his vulnerable "William" side here, as you so rightly pointed out. I love vulnerable Spike. JM is so good at this! He makes me "feel" what Spike is feeling. Very few actors are capable of that. I am eagerly looking forward to your next analysis, Spring. They are a breath of fresh air, exactly what we need at the moment. Thank you so much! Cal Thanks, cal. Yes, JM just shines in his one, short scene in this episode. No matter how little Spike there is in an episode, he manages to nearly steal the show. No wonder people (very silly people) complained that in Season 5, BtVS started turning to the Buffy & Spike show. I'm not at all sure that, if you added up the minutes on screen all Season, Spike got any more than any of the other supporting players. But JM is just soooo good in the role, and the role is such a juicy one so perfectly cast, it stands out. No one should be making apologies for that!! I loved the way JM delivered that first line "Hi, Buffy." Such a simple line, but so perfectly delivered you could hear it all in his voice and see it in his manner: Spike - dear God! - Spike is really in lurrrrve!!! The guy's a goner, and you know it after those two simple words. So then, I was a total goner too.
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Post by Cal on Feb 29, 2004 9:33:09 GMT -5
Thanks, cal. I loved the way JM delivered that first line "Hi, Buffy." Such a simple line, but so perfectly delivered you could hear it all in his voice and see it in his manner: Spike - dear God! - Spike is really in lurrrrve!!! The guy's a goner, and you know it after those two simple words. So then, I was a total goner too. Me too, Spring, me too!
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Post by Kerrie on Feb 29, 2004 16:30:12 GMT -5
Another great review Spring. I am not sure, but I think you have changed your format and included important information in your Spicy Extras?! Good idea! The information needed to be spelt out so that we can enjoy mentally going through that scene again.
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Post by LadyDi on Feb 29, 2004 19:13:13 GMT -5
I love Buffy's use of "William" in this ep., and in As You Were to recognize the man hiding behind the monster. Those are the only two instances I can think of when she refers to him this way. It's almost another Wizard of Oz reference. Paying attention to the man behind the curtain. Spike: the Great and Terrible.
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 29, 2004 19:52:31 GMT -5
Another great review Spring. I am not sure, but I think you have changed your format and included important information in your Spicy Extras?! Good idea! The information needed to be spelt out so that we can enjoy mentally going through that scene again. Thanks, Kerrie. I think I've put "important information" in the Spicy Extras in the past, but I'm not sure. I don't have any rules about the structure, or where I put what, EXCEPT that I try to keep comments about performances or appearances, or how much I liked or didn't like the ep, out of the analysis (more or less).
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 29, 2004 19:57:35 GMT -5
I love Buffy's use of "William" in this ep., and in As You Were to recognize the man hiding behind the monster. Those are the only two instances I can think of when she refers to him this way. It's almost another Wizard of Oz reference. Paying attention to the man behind the curtain. Spike: the Great and Terrible. Yes - great catch, Lady Di. "The curtain" is exactly the terminology in use in the ep, when Willow translates the name of the spell as "pull the curtain back" - I think you're right, there are only two times that Buffy calls Spike "William." This first time she does it very impulsively, based on an instinct she's barely aware of . . . that second time it is very deliberate, she's become (to some extent) consciously aware of the man-behind-the-curtain.
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Post by Lola m on Mar 1, 2004 21:45:23 GMT -5
Spring! Really, really liked your theme of entitlement. This is, after all, Glory’s big introductory episode and that idea of entitlement just sums her up, doesn’t it? All during her season as big bad, that’s the one quality she persistently displays. An overwhelming, glorious conviction of her own entitlement to, well, everything. Her key, her minions, her fabulous shoes – basically just expecting everyone’s total adoration of her. Because, well, she’s a god, right? Her frustrations and losses to Buffy and the gang will always be sharpest around that sense of them not giving her what she believes she is entitled to. It's like she can't quite believe that they won’t just give her whatever she wants. And much as I love “out. for. a. walk. bitch.”, I can’t help thinking “You have stupid hair” is the most cute line. It makes me feel toward Spike the way he did toward Harmony in “The Real Me”. Let’s face it…..it’s adorable. Lola
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Post by SpringSummers on Mar 2, 2004 8:06:28 GMT -5
Spring! Really, really liked your theme of entitlement. This is, after all, Glory’s big introductory episode and that idea of entitlement just sums her up, doesn’t it? All during her season as big bad, that’s the one quality she persistently displays. An overwhelming, glorious conviction of her own entitlement to, well, everything. Her key, her minions, her fabulous shoes – basically just expecting everyone’s total adoration of her. Because, well, she’s a god, right? Her frustrations and losses to Buffy and the gang will always be sharpest around that sense of them not giving her what she believes she is entitled to. It's like she can't quite believe that they won’t just give her whatever she wants. And much as I love “out. for. a. walk. bitch.”, I can’t help thinking “You have stupid hair” is the most cute line. It makes me feel toward Spike the way he did toward Harmony in “The Real Me”. Let’s face it…..it’s adorable. Lola Yes - Glory has a real superiority complex - and as Xander once said to Buffy, just because she's superior, doesn't mean she can go and act all . . . superior! I do agree on the entitlement thing, but she's only appeared in two eps I've done so far, and I'm not quite sure I've gotten a complete feel for her yet. I agree on the "you have stupid hair." That line, and just the way Spike says "Hi, Buffy," gets to me and yes, you have found the perfect line from Real Me - it is adorable. We really get set up brilliantly - by the time we get to Fool for Love that's what we all are: Fools for Love.
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Post by Kerrie on Mar 5, 2004 14:06:18 GMT -5
Sorry for the lateness, but in your analysis you referred to Dawn representing Buffy's innocence. I have seen references to this theory from the snippets of the main thread that I have read, so I don't know whether I am repeating the discussion. This is an intriguing idea, but how far can you take the analogy? I have tried taking it to it's logical conclusion, but I am not sure whether I have strayed from the path so I'll tell you my thoughts and you can tell me if I have lost the plot.
Starting from The Body, Dawn starts her attention-seeking kleptomania. We know it is a cry for attention because in OMWF she sings " Does anybody even notice? Does anybody even care?" when she tries on her latest acquisition. Under this scenario, we can infer that Buffy's innocence is trying to steal something from her friends to get attention. This raises the question of what Buffy is trying to steal. The only thing that I can come up with is that Buffy, in season 6, is trying to "steal" her friends' attention by her depressed behaviour. This would fall nicely into the idea that trying to commit suicide is actually a cry for attention. Needless to say, I find this idea interesting, but I am not convinced that it is true. What do you think?
On another, related subject, I am finding your quote "My extreme unhappiness warrants your kindness" (paraphrased and no doubt ruined) to be extremely disquietening. I am not sure why, but I think it has something to do with the fact that the person (Lucy?) used the quote to gain entrance into a home and kill a suspected vampire. Is this what Buffy did to Spike?
This brings me to another related issue. The scene with Spike and Buffy was observed by Dawn and you imply (or maybe just outright say or maybe I just infer) that this foreshadows how Dawn will be the key for Spike to access Buffy's locked heart. Obviously this turns out to be true: by protecting Dawn, Spike gains access to Buffy's good opinion. However, this was not my first thought when I read the analysis. My first thought was that it related to Spike going to Buffy's bathroom because Dawn had given him the key to understanding Buffy. This is another one of those disquietening thoughts!
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Post by Micha on Mar 5, 2004 20:11:49 GMT -5
Just checking to say Hi LadiDi! Hi Spring! Hi Kerrie!
Miss you all.
Micha
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Post by SpringSummers on Mar 5, 2004 21:34:26 GMT -5
Sorry for the lateness, but in your analysis you referred to Dawn representing Buffy's innocence. I have seen references to this theory from the snippets of the main thread that I have read, so I don't know whether I am repeating the discussion. This is an intriguing idea, but how far can you take the analogy? I have tried taking it to it's logical conclusion, but I am not sure whether I have strayed from the path so I'll tell you my thoughts and you can tell me if I have lost the plot. First, lemme say, I don't mind "lateness" when it comes to reading my analyses or posting your thoughts. It is never too late! What I think is that Dawn's stealing in Season 6 is related to Buffy "stealing" Spike's love. The vulnerable, loving, pure, girly part of Buffy still needs love as much as she ever did. But she is so traumatized and depressed that she can't give it back. So she tries to take what she needs without having to pay for it. I said Dawn was Buffy's innocence - but I had a hard time finding the precise word. I mean her innocence, her vulnerability, the girly, romantic, part of her . . . I need a word here, but can't come up with it (is there one?) "My great unhappiness entitles me to your kindness." Yes. That phrase got to me as well. It just stood out. Her name was Charlotte. She killed a French revolutionary that she believed was a traitor to the revolution, was causing enormous suffering, and should be killed. (There is a lot of controversy over who was the victim, and who the hero in this story). I wouldn't say this is what Buffy did to Spike. Buffy never pretends neediness or anything like that. Just the opposite. She pretends toughness and indifference. I think Spike's love of Dawn is related to his love of the goodness in Buffy - the goodness and courage and vulnerability and love he can always see in her, no matter how she acts or tries to hide it. What I meant by the reference to Dawn as The Key to Buffy's heart was about the fact that Buffy allows herself to love Dawn in a very complete way, and also about how Spike's constant love for Buffy, his ability to always see through to her vulnerable core no matter how tough she acts, no matter how much she tries to hide it . . . will eventually gain him access to her heart - a heart she has shut down when it comes to romantic love.
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Post by SpringSummers on Mar 5, 2004 21:35:02 GMT -5
Just checking to say Hi LadiDi! Hi Spring! Hi Kerrie! Miss you all. Micha I miss you too, Micha. Come back more often!
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Post by Rob on Mar 6, 2004 4:45:44 GMT -5
Thanks, cal. Yes, JM just shines in his one, short scene in this episode. No matter how little Spike there is in an episode, he manages to nearly steal the show. No wonder people (very silly people) complained that in Season 5, BtVS started turning to the Buffy & Spike show. I'm not at all sure that, if you added up the minutes on screen all Season, Spike got any more than any of the other supporting players. But JM is just soooo good in the role, and the role is such a juicy one so perfectly cast, it stands out. No one should be making apologies for that!! So then, I was a total goner too. Actually, the show didn't lean to hard on Buffy and Spike in Season 5 at all. Naturally, as a possible love interest, he'd get center stage at times, but not much more than the rest. No, Five is pretty good ensemble stuff. Seasons 6 and 7...I'll leave that for another day. Another really strong analysis, by the way. I always wondered why Buffy didn't follow up on the cigarette butts. Of course, I also always wondered how Xander couldn't see invisible Buffy fooling around with Spike in Season 6. There's something there about things being right in front of us, but we refuse to see it. In fact, I recall Xander saying something very similar in the Season 5 episode "Family." A common theme on Buffy is the human willingness to overlook that which we do not want to face...until things finally come out. Almost invariably things wind up being much worse than they ever had to be as a consequence. The most dangerous secrets are the ones we keep from ourselves.
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