Family Discussion

[William the Bloody]

Let the discusion begin!

[Queen E]

William said:

Let the discusion begin!

Ok.

Spring, loved all of the elements of this episode you've picked out; I always go back and rewatch the episode with new eyes after reading your analyses.

One thing I thought was interesting was the fact that it was Sandy at the bar, flirting with Riley, the girl the Vamp Willow turned in Doppelgangland, further foreshadowing (backshadowing?) Willow's darkness. Another (limited) form of family.

Must go get coffee.

[SpringSummers]

eg said:

Ok.

Spring, loved all of the elements of this episode you've picked out; I always go back and rewatch the episode with new eyes after reading your analyses.

One thing I thought was interesting was the fact that it was Sandy at the bar, flirting with Riley, the girl the Vamp Willow turned in Doppelgangland, further foreshadowing (backshadowing?) Willow's darkness. Another (limited) form of family.

Must go get coffee.

Yes, I noticed it was "Sandy from Doppelgangland" also - and I thought giving us a reminder of Doppelgangland had two purposes . . . it fit with the "people have two sides" theme of the show, and it reminded us that Willow, in particular has two sides - another clue that we are meant to see past the cliche of a perfect love and happy ending for Willow and Tara.

Hadn't thought of how it ties in with the "who's family" theme, but I think you've got something there.

Thanks for the feedback and input, eg.

[Karen]

Amazing review, Spring! Very entertaining and full of great insights. Like: The shoes, of course, are standing in for everything and anything you surround yourself with as you walk your way through life. I'm going to look for all the shoe and "come" references when I rewatch with your review in hand.

I also loved how you pointed out all the foreshadowing, too. I always pay attention to the first and last lines of all of the Jossverse shows now, because of you.

And of course, the Spikey extras: This episode is a pivotal point in Spike’s transformation. He saves Buffy, and he helps Tara, and despite the snarky “you’re welcomes,” he seems satisfied with having done good for its own sake. He doesn’t demand either attention or reward for his acts. It’s a first, but it won’t be a last.

Spike's journey is a fascinating one - one I never tire of watching (or reading about) - over and over and over........

Thank you!

[SpringSummers]

Karen said:

Amazing review, Spring! Very entertaining and full of great insights. Like: The shoes, of course, are standing in for everything and anything you surround yourself with as you walk your way through life. I'm going to look for all the shoe and "come" references when I rewatch with your review in hand.

I also loved how you pointed out all the foreshadowing, too. I always pay attention to the first and last lines of all of the Jossverse shows now, because of you.

And of course, the Spikey extras: This episode is a pivotal point in Spike’s transformation. He saves Buffy, and he helps Tara, and despite the snarky “you’re welcomes,” he seems satisfied with having done good for its own sake. He doesn’t demand either attention or reward for his acts. It’s a first, but it won’t be a last.

Spike's journey is a fascinating one - one I never tire of watching (or reading about) - over and over and over........

Thank you!

You can't really hear the "shoe" references in the songs very well. I was very surprised when I went to look at the music list for the ep and found so many shoe references. Then I remembered Glory throwing her shoes at the demon, and mentioning her shoes - and Harmony pulling shoes out of her shopping bags, and Buffy, killing that demon with her sensible-shoe-clad foot. Shoes, shoes, shoes.

I was even more surprised to find that the very sweet, romantic sounding song at the end of the episode was about someone's love for their TV set.

Thanks for the nice comments Karen, and I am glad if I have added to your enjoyment of this amazing series.

[Kerrie]

Great analysis Spring. I learnt a lot reading it. Most of it profoundly disturbing. I will list the elements that were disturbing.

1) The liar/story telling analogy being the foreshadowing of Willow/Tara relationship. When I watched it I just enjoyed the nice story, I didn't think about the significance of Willow ruining the ending. It was an interesting call that you thought that Tara's father had correctly sensed that she was in danger from Willow. Prior to reading your analysis I thought that the danger element came from her involvement with Buffy and the fight against evil.

2) The discussion of the word "come" in relation to Tara's family was the most disturbing. Are you trying to imply that Tara's family had an incestuous element (and I don't mean necessarily physically)?

3)The shoes. Based on your analysis I now feel the need to re-examine episodes with a view to watching Buffy's shoes to see how her journey is going. I know that in "Earshot", Giles comments on the inappropriate choice of shoes (something like "She would wear cats strapped to her feet if it were fashionable"). I can't think of any specific episodes, but I know that I have sometimes been struck by Buffy's strange choices in footwear. However, I admit that I find it inconceivable that she sometimes goes slaying in a dress. What is the last thing a vampire sees before being staked?

Spike's journey towards redemption that is evident in this episode was not disturbing. I think this the first episode that I saw in season 5 and I watched it whilst re-reading LoTR. Buffy mainly caught my eye, but the impression of Spike being one of the goodies was difficult to shake. In fact it was only after watching OMWF a million times that I grasped that he was not a Scoobie or even an accepted Scoobie-fringe dweller. I should hasten to explain that the next ep that I saw was Intervention and I half watched most of the remaining episodes for the season. I watched all of "The Gift".

[SpringSummers]

Kerrie said:

Great analysis Spring. I learnt a lot reading it. Most of it profoundly disturbing. I will list the elements that were disturbing.

I'm glad you got a lot out of the analysis, and as always, thanks for the feedback.

1) The liar/story telling analogy being the foreshadowing of Willow/Tara relationship. When I watched it I just enjoyed the nice story, I didn't think about the significance of Willow ruining the ending. It was an interesting call that you thought that Tara's father had correctly sensed that she was in danger from Willow. Prior to reading your analysis I thought that the danger element came from her involvement with Buffy and the fight against evil.

I don't think Mr MacLay had any conscious feeling that Tara was in danger from Willow specifically. But I think he felt that the whole situation was dangerous - and of course, he was right.

2) The discussion of the word "come" in relation to Tara's family was the most disturbing. Are you trying to imply that Tara's family had an incestuous element (and I don't mean necessarily physically)?

Yes, I think that's the implication of all the "come" stuff. I don't think that Tara's family necessarily had a literally incestous element. But I think the constant use of the word "come" represented a sort of . . . grasping selfishness, a willingness to use another for your gratification, even if it is at their expense (a sort of figurative child-rape, using your child inappropriately, parasitically, to fill YOUR needs, when your main concern should be their needs and their growth).

Tara's family is more worried about their own needs, than Tara's. Dad & Donny want her at home to take care of them, and Beth, I suspect, wants Tara to relieve her of responsibility which has likely now fallen on her.

3)The shoes. Based on your analysis I now feel the need to re-examine episodes with a view to watching Buffy's shoes to see how her journey is going. I know that in "Earshot", Giles comments on the inappropriate choice of shoes (something like "She would wear cats strapped to her feet if it were fashionable"). I can't think of any specific episodes, but I know that I have sometimes been struck by Buffy's strange choices in footwear. However, I admit that I find it inconceivable that she sometimes goes slaying in a dress. What is the last thing a vampire sees before being staked?

Buffy sometimes makes things a lot harder on herself, than they need to be, for all the wrong reasons.

Spike's journey towards redemption that is evident in this episode was not disturbing. I think this the first episode that I saw in season 5 and I watched it whilst re-reading LoTR. Buffy mainly caught my eye, but the impression of Spike being one of the goodies was difficult to shake. In fact it was only after watching OMWF a million times that I grasped that he was not a Scoobie or even an accepted Scoobie-fringe dweller. I should hasten to explain that the next ep that I saw was Intervention and I half watched most of the remaining episodes for the season. I watched all of "The Gift".

Well - I see Spike as a . . . non-Scoobie-Scoobie. I mean - he's like the relative that everybody hopes won't show up at the reunion, and who has hurt just about everyone there - but still, he is family. He knows everyone, they know him, they've been through all kinds of hell and back together. They have all helped and protected him at various times, as he has them.

[Cheddar]

I wanted to add my praise as well for another enlightening review. I knew shoes were a bit of a running joke through the series, but hadn't tumbled to the underlying metaphor. And I am glad you pointed it out because it helped me understand the importance of Spike's dream right before the final battle with the First where he was drowning in footwear.

I also liked that you pointed out the foreshadowing of Willow's relationship with Tara, because I had always thought that the look that Willow shot Tara's father had much the look of dark Willow, angry face, dark eyes. Another thing about that scene after Tara's spell was revealed that struck me as ironic on rewatching after seeing season six was how Willow later violated Tara's trust in the same way as Tara violated Willow's trust in this episode, by using magic to hide the truth about aspects of their relationship. Willow apparently remembered nothing and learned nothing about the pain of being duped by magic by her lover.

Thanks again for these wonderful reviews, I can't wait for your review of Fool for Love which is certainly one of my favorite episodes of the series.

[Kerrie]

SpringSummers said:

I'm glad you got a lot out of the analysis, and as always, thanks for the feedback.



I don't think Mr MacLay had any conscious feeling that Tara was in danger from Willow specifically. But I think he felt that the whole situation was dangerous - and of course, he was right.



Yes, I think that's the implication of all the "come" stuff. I don't think that Tara's family necessarily had a literally incestous element. But I think the constant use of the word "come" represented a sort of . . . grasping selfishness, a willingness to use another for your gratification, even if it is at their expense (a sort of figurative child-rape, using your child inappropriately, parasitically, to fill YOUR needs, when your main concern should be their needs and their growth).

Tara's family is more worried about their own needs, than Tara's. Dad & Donny want her at home to take care of them, and Beth, I suspect, wants Tara to relieve her of responsibility which has likely now fallen on her.



Buffy sometimes makes things a lot harder on herself, than they need to be, for all the wrong reasons.



Well - I see Spike as a . . . non-Scoobie-Scoobie. I mean - he's like the relative that everybody hopes won't show up at the reunion, and who has hurt just about everyone there - but still, he is family. He knows everyone, they know him, they've been through all kinds of hell and back together. They have all helped and protected him at various times, as he has them.

Thanks for clarifying, Spring. Your descripion of Spike seemed particularly apt.

[SpringSummers]

Cheddar said:

I wanted to add my praise as well for another enlightening review. I knew shoes were a bit of a running joke through the series, but hadn't tumbled to the underlying metaphor. And I am glad you pointed it out because it helped me understand the importance of Spike's dream right before the final battle with the First where he was drowning in footwear.

Thanks for the nice comments, Cheddar.

I'd be curious about your thoughts on the " drowning in footwear" if you are inclined to share. Since I am only on Season 5 in the analyses, I haven't thought all that seriously about the details of Season 7.

I also liked that you pointed out the foreshadowing of Willow's relationship with Tara, because I had always thought that the look that Willow shot Tara's father had much the look of dark Willow, angry face, dark eyes. Another thing about that scene after Tara's spell was revealed that struck me as ironic on rewatching after seeing season six was how Willow later violated Tara's trust in the same way as Tara violated Willow's trust in this episode, by using magic to hide the truth about aspects of their relationship. Willow apparently remembered nothing and learned nothing about the pain of being duped by magic by her lover.

Thanks again for these wonderful reviews, I can't wait for your review of Fool for Love which is certainly one of my favorite episodes of the series.

Good observations on the Willow/Tara relationship; I had not thought about how Tara does a sort of minor version of the mind-wipe (that Willow will do to her) to Willow in this episode.

Regarding the thanks on the wonderful reviews - well, as Spike would say: "You're welcome!"

[Cheddar]

my thoughts on Spike and the footwear aren't all that deep. I was puzzled by the statement originally because it seemed apropos of nothing and not particularly funny, especially not in the scene it was in. But if footwear is the metaphor for the journey, and all the things you bring along, then suddenly it fits the scene. It is part of the larger realization that Buffy had just reached in her discussion with the First, she is not alone, she doesn't have to be alone and sharing the power, and the journey, will allow her to win. On Spike's part, he's making the same journey in a way, getting a soul, which is a means to reconnect to humans, by allowing himself to connect with Buffy, to become a champion, etc. he suddenly has acquired lots of footwear: choices, paths, companions, connections, etc. But unlike Buffy who had been searching for a way to be connected, and who had her path handed to her in many ways, the chosen one, and is strengthened by the connections in following her path, I think Spike is a little overwhelmed by them still, hence, his drowning in them. And just maybe, given how it would appear that JW and company are good at planning out plot points and sowing the seeds many episodes if not years in advance, that comment was the seed of the character arc of Spike on Angel, how to become connected, how to make the choices on the path, without drowning in them.

[SpringSummers]

Cheddar said:

my thoughts on Spike and the footwear aren't all that deep. I was puzzled by the statement originally because it seemed apropos of nothing and not particularly funny, especially not in the scene it was in. But if footwear is the metaphor for the journey, and all the things you bring along, then suddenly it fits the scene. It is part of the larger realization that Buffy had just reached in her discussion with the First, she is not alone, she doesn't have to be alone and sharing the power, and the journey, will allow her to win. On Spike's part, he's making the same journey in a way, getting a soul, which is a means to reconnect to humans, by allowing himself to connect with Buffy, to become a champion, etc. he suddenly has acquired lots of footwear: choices, paths, companions, connections, etc. But unlike Buffy who had been searching for a way to be connected, and who had her path handed to her in many ways, the chosen one, and is strengthened by the connections in following her path, I think Spike is a little overwhelmed by them still, hence, his drowning in them. And just maybe, given how it would appear that JW and company are good at planning out plot points and sowing the seeds many episodes if not years in advance, that comment was the seed of the character arc of Spike on Angel, how to become connected, how to make the choices on the path, without drowning in them.

I love this. This is the best speculation I've seen on the drowning-in-footwear phrase.

Cheddar, please keep posting your insightful thoughts! You are a most excellent n'ubie - thanks for sharing this.

Together, we are all going to figure out this whole darn puzzle of this Series, and that will be some accomplishment. I am very proud of the quality of discussion on these threads - some of the best stuff I've seen anywhere.

Thanks to all for posting with such great additional thoughts and insights.

[sarmi]

. This is my very first post on this forum. long time lurker at soulful spike, but a total newbie to the forum.

first i want to say i love spikecent. i look forward to your new and interesting twists on classic eps.

family is one of my favorite eps, and it has been since it first aired. as a fan who has become increasing obsessed with spike over the years i took solace in the fact that i could still love an ep that really didn't have anything to do with spike.

but as a re-watched the ep i realized why i love it so much is because what it says about family, and specifically spike's role in that family. You may not always like your family, even the family you choose, but you are bound together and that tie makes you stronger.

spike has never been a scoobie nor will he ever be one but he is part of their family and this was the episode that decared as much. overtly this episode was about declaring that they might not understand her but ultimately tara belonged and that she was one of them.

but she is not the only one declared as part of the family. joss being joss, had to add another layer of meaning. for me the most important moment in the ep is the shot when buffy declares "we're family."

take a look at who is included in that shot. buffy, dawn, giles, xander anya, willow, tara and in the back by himself spike. that one shot declared who the family will include for the rest of the series. it was very deliberate in an episode not just written but directed by joss. in an ep that showed riley's increased alienation from buffy and hence the group he is specifically not included and spike is. Joss declare in that one simple shot, while spike may not be a friend he is definitely a member of the family who will protect the other members due to family ties

[SpringSummers]

sarmi said:

. This is my very first post on this forum. long time lurker at soulful spike, but a total newbie to the forum.

first i want to say i love spikecent. i look forward to your new and interesting twists on classic eps.

Thanks. I have so many more eps to plow through, it helps me keep going to hear how people are appreciating the analyses. So thanks for delurking.

family is one of my favorite eps, and it has been since it first aired. as a fan who has become increasing obsessed with spike over the years i took solace in the fact that i could still love an ep that really didn't have anything to do with spike.

but as a re-watched the ep i realized why i love it so much is because what it says about family, and specifically spike's role in that family. You may not always like your family, even the family you choose, but you are bound together and that tie makes you stronger.

spike has never been a scoobie nor will he ever be one but he is part of their family and this was the episode that decared as much. overtly this episode was about declaring that they might not understand her but ultimately tara belonged and that she was one of them.

but she is not the only one declared as part of the family. joss being joss, had to add another layer of meaning. for me the most important moment in the ep is the shot when buffy declares "we're family."

take a look at who is included in that shot. buffy, dawn, giles, xander anya, willow, tara and in the back by himself spike. that one shot declared who the family will include for the rest of the series. it was very deliberate in an episode not just written but directed by joss. in an ep that showed riley's increased alienation from buffy and hence the group he is specifically not included and spike is. Joss declare in that one simple shot, while spike may not be a friend he is definitely a member of the family who will protect the other members due to family ties

Great observations, thanks for adding them to this thread. I agree with what you say here completely. Spike may be way in the back of the picture, but he is in the family portrait. He's that guy - you know the one - the one hanging around in the back of the pic at the family reunion - the one who is slouching maybe, with a cigarette in his hand, standing by himself, looking a little rebellious . . . but hey, he is there. He came to the party, they let him in, he joined the others for the picture, and it was taken with him included - because he is family.

[LadyDi]

Been wondering...since Harmony's back and lying low, is she hunting? Is she sharing Spike's butcher's blood? Is he bringing her rats? Pity we'll never know.