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Post by William the Bloody on Apr 20, 2004 8:00:22 GMT -5
Let the discussion begin!
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Apr 20, 2004 9:15:35 GMT -5
Spring, a pivotal and poignant episode, and an analysis to match. Completely fine. As usual, I have no words, only stunned appreciation.
Spike paralleling Dawn, Riley paralling Angelus, the implications of all this in light of what comes later--much as I love the episode, most of this hadn't occurred to me until you pointed it out. The episode, already much beloved, is richer for me now because of your seeing it and interpreting it.
Thank you.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 20, 2004 10:33:28 GMT -5
Spring, a pivotal and poignant episode, and an analysis to match. Completely fine. As usual, I have no words, only stunned appreciation. Spike paralleling Dawn, Riley paralling Angelus, the implications of all this in light of what comes later--much as I love the episode, most of this hadn't occurred to me until you pointed it out. The episode, already much beloved, is richer for me now because of your seeing it and interpreting it. Thank you. You're welcome, and thanks to you to Nan, for your feedback. It is always high praise, coming from you. Word Document page wise, this is the longest analysis I've done, and I really could have written more - I consciously left out discussion about the past informing the present stuff . . . the talk of museums for dead things, Giles and Buffy reading historical accounts and talking about past Slayers in the present tense, Spike talking to Buffy from 1977, etc. I left out all kinds of small things that hit me . . . e.g., Spike being willing to put up with 2 hours of pain in order to shoot Buffy seemed so much like a twisted Spikey version of William being willing to admit his love for Cecily and take a chance on the pain . . . Dru and the way she plucks that word (efflugence) out of the air ("they're only words," indeed) . . . the continuation of imagery from SchoolHard with dancing, and Spike with a pole, while he's "beneath her," . . . It's such a finely crafted episode. I had to stop obsessing and just get the analysis done. Fortunately, there are many fine eps ahead as well, so I found the motivation to get it finished. Also, I share with you this quote I like for writer's block, just 'cause I feel like it: "Ring the bells that still can ring. Forget your perfect offering. There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." (Leonard Cohen)
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Post by Cheddar on Apr 20, 2004 11:00:37 GMT -5
I've been looking forward to this review, and it is long, and will take a while to digest and then I'll have some comments. But in the meantime, why the little blue heart that is so prominent over Buffy while she's reading the slayer diaries, and Giles even reaches up and fingers it as they are talking. Just symbolic of the love between them or something more overreaching?
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Post by LadyDi on Apr 20, 2004 12:33:09 GMT -5
Spring, imagine me kowtowing before you (ala Wayne's World) crying "I'm not worthy." This is a fantabulous entry in your already delightful series of analyses. Doesn't surprise me it's the longest (so far), either. FFL is an amazing ep. My favorite (?) moment is in the alley. The expression on Spike's face...that seamless transition from rejected suitor to cold-blooded killer is chilling, effective, and a measure of JM's remarkable talent. Do they give life-time achievement emmies? If not, they should. That he's gone unrecognized is criminal. In his commentary, Doug Petrie mentions how Spike is still the same guy (as William). It's incredible. No matter how much he changes, he stays very much the same. Even now.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 20, 2004 14:40:20 GMT -5
I've been looking forward to this review, and it is long, and will take a while to digest and then I'll have some comments. But in the meantime, why the little blue heart that is so prominent over Buffy while she's reading the slayer diaries, and Giles even reaches up and fingers it as they are talking. Just symbolic of the love between them or something more overreaching? Cheddar - thanks for the preliminary feedback, will look forward to hearing more if you're so inclined. On the little blue heart - I noticed the heart when Giles played with it. Gave it some thought but nothing came to me besides the obvious - i.e, what you mentioned - it's about the love between them (which is so obvious in this scene). One thought: The scene features the idea that feelings get in the way of the practical sometimes - the Watchers haven't written very useful accounts of their Slayer's deaths, Giles suggests, because they are in too much pain. And the ep features people giving in (or not) to their feelings. Maybe there is some suggestion here that the love between Buffy & Giles is keeping them both hanging on to the relationship, when it would make more sense let go, so both parties can get on with their adult lives (as happens in Season 6)? I did think the set up of Giles being unable to help Buffy (and the suggestion that parents sometimes can't help their children BECAUSE of their intense feelings for them) and her going to Spike instead was very deliberate. In Season 6, Giles will leave and Buffy will turn to Spike - who isn't at all parental, and ends up helping her into adulthood.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 20, 2004 14:45:20 GMT -5
Spring, imagine me kowtowing before you (ala Wayne's World) crying "I'm not worthy." This is a fantabulous entry in your already delightful series of analyses. Doesn't surprise me it's the longest (so far), either. FFL is an amazing ep. My favorite (?) moment is in the alley. The expression on Spike's face...that seamless transition from rejected suitor to cold-blooded killer is chilling, effective, and a measure of JM's remarkable talent. Do they give life-time achievement emmies? If not, they should. That he's gone unrecognized is criminal. In his commentary, Doug Petrie mentions how Spike is still the same guy (as William). It's incredible. No matter how much he changes, he stays very much the same. Even now. Thanks for the nice words, Lady Di. And you are plenty "worthy." Yes - I love James' work in that alley when he goes from crying to looking as scary and determined to kill Buffy as he has ever looked. He's amazing. And yes - there is a consistency to Spike, to the way all involved bring us the final product, that is just magic. And he more than any character brings home the Jossverse message we hear in different ways . . . though I like Riley's words best in As You Were, "Wheel never stops turning, Buffy. You're up, you're down - it doesn't change what you are." And to paraphrase Riley here, Spike is one hell of a man.
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Post by Cheddar on Apr 20, 2004 14:52:50 GMT -5
thanks for your answer on the heart.
As for baby burning fishes, I've seen others write that its about the chip. But in Crush, Drusilla refers to the chip but doesn't use the fishes analogy. So maybe not. You point out a couple of references/symbols, the wings, which can be Christian, and then the touching of the wounds, which is definitely Christian. Since I live in the bible belt, you can't escape the fish symbol, its on cars, tshirts, jewelry, business cards, etc. And season 7 gives us two more references to Christ and burning in reference to Spike. And I know JW is an aetheist, and I'm not suggesting Spike is Christ, but the redemption theme is huge for Spike throughout the series. And the Bible, whether you treat its as your religious guide or literature, is a huge source of redemptionist symbols. So one potential for baby burning fishes is the whole redemption scenario.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 20, 2004 15:18:46 GMT -5
thanks for your answer on the heart. As for baby burning fishes, I've seen others write that its about the chip. But in Crush, Drusilla refers to the chip but doesn't use the fishes analogy. So maybe not. You point out a couple of references/symbols, the wings, which can be Christian, and then the touching of the wounds, which is definitely Christian. Since I live in the bible belt, you can't escape the fish symbol, its on cars, tshirts, jewelry, business cards, etc. And season 7 gives us two more references to Christ and burning in reference to Spike. And I know JW is an aetheist, and I'm not suggesting Spike is Christ, but the redemption theme is huge for Spike throughout the series. And the Bible, whether you treat its as your religious guide or literature, is a huge source of redemptionist symbols. So one potential for baby burning fishes is the whole redemption scenario. I've read that chip idea before, but I don't like it. It just doesn't ring true to me, that this is about the chip. I thought about the fish/Christian symbolism, because we get a lot of Christian symbolism for Spike, as you said . . . there's the redemption thing, and we are heading toward Spike making the ultimate sacrifice, sacrificial lamb and all that. I still don't really like it. I can't say why, but . . . it just doesn't work for me. The chip of course, does help Spike on his journey toward salvation, but - I don't know. I just know that Real Me opens with fishes all around Dawn's head - little colorful fishes in a mobile. Of course, Dawn is being set up to make a big sacrifice too, though Buffy takes "this cup" away from her. Maybe it is like the Cheeseman. Just there to drive us batty.
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Post by Kerrie on Apr 20, 2004 18:00:31 GMT -5
Well done, Spring, this is another excellent analysis. I will need a lot of time to think it over. I just wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed it. My only disappointment was that you gave us the abridged version. I would have preferred the extended version even if it did go for 100s of pages and left me with nothing to say except "Wow". However, I suppose then I would have had to wait even longer for the analysis and the wait was long enough.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 20, 2004 22:46:47 GMT -5
Well done, Spring, this is another excellent analysis. I will need a lot of time to think it over. I just wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed it. My only disappointment was that you gave us the abridged version. I would have preferred the extended version even if it did go for 100s of pages and left me with nothing to say except "Wow". However, I suppose then I would have had to wait even longer for the analysis and the wait was long enough. Thanks for the quick feedback Kerrie - do post again if you get the urge, after you've taken the time to think about it all. Hundreds of pages? I actually wish I had the time, 'cause I have the inclination. But really, I did include everything I thought was important. So no need to wonder about what marvelous additional insights I might be hoarding or anything. It would have all been small stuff. I never try to provide every little detail . . . list every example, etc. I will keep going on these, as long as there is interest.
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Post by Kate (K8) on Apr 21, 2004 10:16:11 GMT -5
Great analysis. Never thought about how similar the Dru/Spike and Spike/ Buffy encounters were. Not sure about baby burning fishes but in the mine shaft Dru says "The King of Cups expects a picnic! But this is not his birthday." and some people have linked this to the fight and cup in Destiny (although I very much doubt the writers were thinking that far ahead).
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Post by William the Bloody on Apr 21, 2004 10:55:33 GMT -5
Great analysis. Never thought about how similar the Dru/Spike and Spike/ Buffy encounters were. Not sure about baby burning fishes but in the mine shaft Dru says "The King of Cups expects a picnic! But this is not his birthday." and some people have linked this to the fight and cup in Destiny (although I very much doubt the writers were thinking that far ahead). They might not, but I bet like many good writers, they look "back" and grasp at threads to weave together. I was struck by Dru's line about the King of Cups before, when I originally watched Destiny. I think it definitely could have meaning. Vlad
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 21, 2004 11:44:49 GMT -5
Great analysis. Never thought about how similar the Dru/Spike and Spike/ Buffy encounters were. Not sure about baby burning fishes but in the mine shaft Dru says "The King of Cups expects a picnic! But this is not his birthday." and some people have linked this to the fight and cup in Destiny (although I very much doubt the writers were thinking that far ahead). Hi k8 - thanks for taking the time to provide a little feedback. The Cecily/William encounter is also somewhat like the William/Dru and the Buffy/Spike encounter in the backyard - it begins the same way - she asks him to leave her alone, he can see she's distressed and he offers companionship . . . but she rejects him, whereas William and Buffy both accept the offers from Dru and Spike (backyard Spike). I have heard speculation on the "King of Cups" thing, re Destiny . . . I also know it is a Tarot Card, but know nothing about Tarot, so I just stayed away from that. The Destiny writer may have deliberately had that line in mind when writing, but either way, it struck me as insignificant - not worth mentioning. I know there are other opinions on this - but my gut feeling is that "the cup" from Destiny was totally bogus.
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Post by Cal on Apr 21, 2004 14:58:21 GMT -5
Excellent analysis, Spring. My favourite Buffy episode of all time. JM's acting is amazing in this episode. I love every little thing about it. His face when Buffy tells him that he is beneath her.......the scene on the porch steps (that scene gets me every time), the scene's in the Bronze. There are just so many good things about it, I can't possibly write them all down.
As usual, your analysis makes me enjoy and appreciate the episode even more than I did already. Which is an amazing achievement, considering how much I love Fool For Love anyway. Thank you, Spring.
Cal
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