|
Post by thelittlestvampire on May 8, 2004 19:53:53 GMT -5
Hey Spring,
Great analysis as usual. I have to go back and rewatch now (for the be-gillionth time.)
I wanted to add something to the discussion of the "burning baby fishes" and the alleyway.
i love that scene, and the more I think about it with all you've said and with all I've gleaned fom the s'cubes- I think it says so much about spike and his journey.
There's the crossover scene with Ats where drucilla says she'll find the wisest (I thought that was intersting) and bravest knight in all the land" and Darla says "or you could just turn the next fool who walks by" (who happens to be William.- this sets us up for YEARS of trying to figure out who was right. Is he wise and brave or foolish, or maybe both?
Then the burning baby fishes. I always thought that was just a visual on what Dru saw in his head. Bits of light trapped in a shell. She was seeing his passion. His stregth and passion were trapped inside a man who did not know how to express them. (I've seen this ruin men in RL.)
Does he want something effulgent? Yes, oh god yes. He wants something great...he does not know what yet, but he wants it so bad he'll risk everything.
So Spike is wise and brave, and has immeasurable passion but is he "great?" Does he want greatness- or does he want something of greatness?
this is key to his relationship with both Angel and Buffy.
He's in love with greatness, but also, thanks to cecily's rejection, wants to destroy it.
By loving Buffy, he finally learns to be near power and be part of it without trying to mess with it or destroy it. this is the key to why he's finally really comfortable as Angel's Right hand man.
It thought the scene with the cahins in TGIQ was interesting. when caught of guard by the immortal- Spike thinks of Angelus' greatness before his own. "They don't know who they are messing with, the great Angelus." And Angel says, 'Or william the bloody", for all his snarking, spike's greatness is seen as his reflection in Angel.
Anway,
I should stop going on and on.
Daisy
|
|
|
Post by thelittlestvampire on May 8, 2004 19:56:52 GMT -5
Thanks for giving props to Harmony in your review.
You made me think about where harmony fits in the Spike picture. She loves his tough shell (which she lacks) and also his William-y softness.
at first I thought he thought her "beneath him" becauseshe reminded him of his wussy William self.
Now I'm not sure. I think there is a connection here with Harmony and William, but I don't knwo.
D
|
|
|
Post by thelittlestvampire on May 8, 2004 19:59:43 GMT -5
Hi Spring! First of all: Thank you for your absolutely wonderful analysis! I can think of no higher praise than that it does justice to this episode, to Spike & to JM. Your analysis has added even more depth to the story for me. Secondly, re: fish. I've come to think that the "burning baby fish swimming all 'round your head" was Dru's way of seeing William's soul. The Jossverse has made the fish=soul analogy canon with the goldfish thing in AtS' Soul Purpose. Also, burning is painful/dangerous to vampires, the same way souls would be? And "baby" = not fully grown. William was/is a work in progress. Not-quite-relevant aside: that would make Spike the Mr. Fish & Chips mentioned in Smile Time that was damaging Angel's self-esteem. Thirdly, re: lack of development of soulless vampires. My theory: Kerrie said I believe Kerrie's wording hits the metaphorical/psychological key -- the vampires cast no "self-reflection", just like they cast no actual reflection in mirrors. Without self-reflection, how can you grow? When Spike falls in love with Buffy, she becomes the mirror by which he is able to see himself. When he sees (reflects on) the consequences of his actions through his Buffy-mirror, he changed the actions and therefore himself. Once he decided that Buffy is what he wanted, he couldn't help it. Linda, who is now forced to watch the episode all over again -- to check her facts, of course (poor me... ;D ) This is the first fish metaphor I've ever read and agreed with.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on May 8, 2004 21:15:59 GMT -5
Analysis great, you are a goddess, blah blah blah... HOWEVER, You are totally wrong about what Spike told Buffy at the Bronze. Okay, maybe not, but I think the story could have been told (dorky poetry and all) with Spike's general sense of bravado and maybe some pant-stuffing lies about how he handled the rejection, but the way we cut back to him and Buffy talking suggests he is very into the telling of the story and really opening up emotionally quite a bit (he's very offended by Buffy's characterization of vampirism). Plus, as a ploy to get closer to Buffy (we're not far from their little "date," right?) a sob story (even evil Spike's idea of one) is a good try. Buffy simply isn't one to cut most vampires a lot of slack; I could see her hearing the story and feeling plenty of sorry for William the human, and disgusted with the vampiric shell remaining. Buffy calls him William after all when she's trying to appeal to his better nature. Also, she says "you're beneath me" right after Spike has just launched a very insightful, very disturbing, malicious attack at the core of her person. Buffy is definitely a person who would come back with something just as devestating. Of course, assuming Buffy meant to be that extra level of cruel is what allows me to get behind William and his new found motive to kill the slayer. 'Cuase I mean crossbows, stakes, and shotgun's are one thing, but words are just so mean. Your worship lacks the proper subservient tone, but it is accepted nonetheless. I do agree there is more than one way to look at Buffy's "you're beneath me" words. There's my way, and there's the wrong way. But seriously - we don't get anything definitive. To me, it's much more likely that Buffy used the same simple words, than that Spike told her a woman said such a thing to his bad self back in 1880. He might have, twisting the facts enough to make it sound less like rejection, and more like the bitterness of a woman scorned, or something. BUT - if he doesn't make it sound like something that devastated him, then Buffy still can't be seen as trying to hurt him again with the same words. Can she? I dunno. Doesn't much matter - it speaks only marginally to Buffy's motives. She means to send a clear and hurtful message, and she does.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on May 8, 2004 21:29:12 GMT -5
Hi Spring! First of all: Thank you for your absolutely wonderful analysis! I can think of no higher praise than that it does justice to this episode, to Spike & to JM. Your analysis has added even more depth to the story for me. That is high praise. Many thanks. Interesting and worthwhile thoughts on this. Thanks for sharing them here. I have to admit I don't remember these soul=fish references in AtS. I believe you, but without remembering them myself, it's hard to comment. I do remember this though - that Spike refers to his soul as burning him ("it burns") in "Beneath You," in Season 7 BtVS. So that adds support to the thought that the burning refers to the soul. Yep - I liked that idea too - the lack of self-reflection meaning the lack of growth, and I like what you've added to it re Buffy providing a needed reflection.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on May 8, 2004 21:41:44 GMT -5
Thanks for giving props to Harmony in your review. You made me think about where harmony fits in the Spike picture. She loves his tough shell (which she lacks) and also his William-y softness. at first I thought he thought her "beneath him" becauseshe reminded him of his wussy William self. Now I'm not sure. I think there is a connection here with Harmony and William, but I don't knwo. D Thanks for all the feedback, TLV. On the subject of Harmony, I think Spike is both attracted to, and repelled by, Harmony for the same reason: She sees him. He finds comfort in that - in someone who will stroke his head and call him a little lamb and who knows he's "so sensitive!" But he hates her for it too. I do think that she reminds him of his wussy William self, in the fact that she herself is very feelings oriented and sensitive and she idealizes Spike, much as William idealized Cecily, then Dru. But even more than that, she sees right through to his wussy William self.
|
|
|
Post by Nickim on Jul 9, 2004 17:50:46 GMT -5
Great analysis, as always, Spring. I have to agree with you that on the "I've always been bad" statement. I think Spike told Buffy a very different story than the one we see. I agree with everyone who thinks the " burning baby fishes" are Spike's soul, quite possibly when he sacrifices himself--certainly his soul was burning then. When he leans in for a kiss I always think that Buffy's the "fool" for backing away. The Fanged Four strolling through the burning city reminds me of the scene in "The Pack" when the hynea-kids stroll through the school campus. I think that scene truly shows the total contempt the vampires have for humans--even ensouled Angel doesn't seem to care that people are dying all around him.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Jul 10, 2004 19:51:08 GMT -5
Great analysis, as always, Spring. I have to agree with you that on the "I've always been bad" statement. I think Spike told Buffy a very different story than the one we see. I agree with everyone who thinks the " burning baby fishes" are Spike's soul, quite possibly when he sacrifices himself--certainly his soul was burning then. When he leans in for a kiss I always think that Buffy's the "fool" for backing away. The Fanged Four strolling through the burning city reminds me of the scene in "The Pack" when the hynea-kids stroll through the school campus. I think that scene truly shows the total contempt the vampires have for humans--even ensouled Angel doesn't seem to care that people are dying all around him. Thanks, Nicki. I appreciate the feedback very much. I'm not sold on the "fish/soul" thing. I'm not saying it is wrong. It could be right on target. I don't know. None of the "burning baby fishes" theories really grab me. Spike is very, very sexy in that alley, but Spike's bragging about killing Slayers and his threat to murder Buffy next - I'm thinking that would be a fairly effective bucket of cold water for me, too. But he is very very sexy in that alley - and I'm sure Buffy does want to dance. Yes - I never thought of it, but the four in China are reminiscent of The Pack. Poor piggie!! Poor Mr Flutie!! Angel is in a very bad place within himself during that time he's in China - he's trying to go back to Darla and the life he has known for so long. Angel is . . . he resists change; he's always trying to control his environment, achieve a kind of steady state . . . something life (or unlife, even) doesn't allow anyone to do. He's definitely a "greatness thrust upon him" kind of guy, but to his credit, he always eventually figures out how to go forward with whatever has happened to him.
|
|
|
Post by fredspuffed on Jul 24, 2004 4:13:16 GMT -5
WILLIAM m Usage: English Pronounced: WIL-ee-am From the Germanic name Wilhelm, which was composed of the elements wil "will, desire" and helm "helmet, protection". The name was introduced to Britain by the Normans. It has belonged to several rulers of England, Prussia, and Germany, including William the Conqueror, the first Norman king of England. Another famous bearer was William Tell, a legendary 14th-century hero from Switzerland. In the literary world it has been borne by dramatist William Shakespeare and poet William Blake, as well as contemporary authors William Faulkner and William S. Burroughs.
BUFFY f Usage: English Pronounced: BUF-ee Pet form of ELIZABETH
ELIZABETH f Usage: English, Biblical Pronounced: ee-LIZ-a-beth From Elisabet, the Greek form of the Hebrew name Elisheba meaning "God is my oath". In the New Testament this is the name of the mother of John the Baptist. It was also borne by the 12th-century Saint Elizabeth, a daughter of King Andrew II of Hungary who became a Franciscan nun and lived in poverty. It was also the name of a ruling queen of England and an empress of Russia. Famous modern bearers include the British queen Elizabeth II and actress Elizabeth Taylor.
ALEXANDER m Usage: English, German, Dutch Pronounced: al-eg-ZAN-dur From the Greek name Alexandros, which meant "defending men" from Greek alexein "to defend, help" and aner "man" (genitive andros). Alexander the Great, King of Macedon, is the most famous bearer of this name. In the 4th century BC he built a huge empire out of Greece, Egypt, Persia, and parts of India. This was also the name of emperors of Russia, kings of Scotland and Yugoslavia, and eight popes. Also, Sir Alexander MacKenzie was an explorer of the north and west of Canada in the 18th century.
ANYA f Usage: Russian Russian pet form of ANNA
ANNA f Usage: English, Italian, German, Dutch, Scandinavian, Finnish, Greek, Hungarian, Polish, Russian, Czech, Bulgarian, Icelandic, Catalan, Breton Pronounced: AN-a (English), AHN-nah Latinate form of HANNAH. It was borne by an 18th-century empress of Russia. This is also the name of the main character in Tolstoy's 'Anna Karenina', a woman forced to chose between her son and her lover.
HANNAH f Usage: English, Jewish, French, Biblical Pronounced: HAN-a From the Hebrew name Channah which meant "favour" or "grace". Hannah was the mother of Samuel the prophet in the Old Testament. The Latin version of this name is Anna.
CECILY f Usage: English Pronounced: SES-i-lee English feminine form of Caecilius (see CECILIA).
CECILIA f Usage: English, Italian, Spanish, Scandinavian Pronounced: se-SEE-lee-a, se-SEEL-ya, chay-CHEE-lyah (Italian), say-SEE-lyah (Spanish) Latinate feminine form of the Roman family name Caecilius, which was derived from Latin caecus "blind". According to legend, Saint Cecilia was a 3rd-century martyr who was sentenced to die because she refused to worship the Roman gods. After attempts to suffocate her failed, she had her head chopped off. She is the patron saint of music and musicians.
shes blind of course she didnt see the good man he was -- kinda like buffy not wanting to see the good and i geuss forshadowing to s6 blindness ?
DARLA f Usage: English Pronounced: DAHR-la Short form of DARLENE
DARLENE f Usage: English Pronounced: dar-LEEN From a combination of the English word darling and the popular name suffix lene.
Usage: Biblical, Ancient Roman Pronounced: droo-SIL-a Feminine pet form of the Roman family name Drusus. Apparently the name Drusus was first assumed by a Roman warrior who killed a Gallic chieftain named Drausus in single combat. Drausus possibly derives from a Celtic element meaning "strong". In Acts in the New Testament Drusilla was the wife of Felix.
LIAM m Usage: Irish Pronounced: LEE-am Irish short form of WILLIAM
RILEY m,f Usage: English Pronounced: RIE-lee From a surname which was originally derived from a place name meaning "rye clearing" in Old English.
RUPERT m Usage: German, Dutch, English Pronounced: ROO-purt (English) Low German form of ROBERT. The name was introduced to England by the military commander Prince Rupert of the Rhine, a nephew of Charles I.
ROBERT m Usage: English, French, Scandinavian Pronounced: RAH-burt (English), ro-BER (French) Means "bright fame", derived from the Germanic elements hrod "fame" and beraht "bright". The Normans introduced this name to Britain. It belonged to three kings of Scotland, including Robert the Bruce who restored the independence of Scotland from England in the 14th century. The author Robert Browning and poets Robert Burns and Robert Frost are famous literary bearers of this name. Also, Robert E. Lee was the commander of the Confederate army during the American Civil War.
TARA (1) f Usage: English Pronounced: TAHR-a, TER-a Anglicized form of the Irish place name Teamhair, which possibly means "elevated place" in Gaelic. This was the name of the sacred hill near Dublin where the Irish high kings resided. Tara was also used as the name of the O'Hara plantation in the movie 'Gone with the Wind'.
TARA (2) f Usage: Indian, Hindu Mythology Means "star" in Sanskrit. In Hindu and Buddhist mythology Tara was an astral goddess, the wife of Brihaspati.
from behindthename.com
thought was somewhat important
well first i was thinking why wouldd they choose the name cecily for spikes 1st love
that sorta got me thinking about JM his first at least according to imd.com was northern exposure wich takes place in cicely , alaska cicely!!!!
i know im nuts and its probsabley just a qawinkidink well ide also like to note that he played a bellhop in his first ep (the lowest in a hotel i suppose workinng to get to ther front desk someday he** at least he wasnt house keeping) and his 2nd ep he played a reverand Harding (is it a man of god a big step up from where he was before) HARDING m Usage: English Pronounced: HAHR-ding From a surname which was derived from the first name Heard, which was itself a short form of various Old English names containing the element heard meaning "brave, hardy".
oh whatever i was thinking about it foer awhile stewing if you will sorry that im gong off topic
sorry im going wayt of topic ,love your work sorry
Spike is the bees knees ,James Marsters is the man
|
|
|
Post by Nickim on Jul 24, 2004 7:44:03 GMT -5
Fredspuffed,
Thanks for the behindthename.com site. I love to look up the meaning of names.
|
|
|
Post by fredspuffed on Aug 3, 2004 4:07:08 GMT -5
Okay, okay -- I've been thinkinking about that scene the bronze where Spike touches Buff's wound and they both ahhhh scream Ummm(clearing my throut ) I uhh to me or for a tjhe lack of a better word or perhaps because it is the only word that comes to mind find this encounter orgasmic I find myself amused and aroused ;D at the same time. The expressions on the bystanders face is golden I find it akin to that infamous scene from When Harry Met Sally Am I alone in this? Is this feeling wrong ? . Does this puppy need to go to the vet? I've read the analyes so many times I enjoy it to no end !
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Aug 3, 2004 5:55:14 GMT -5
Okay, okay -- I've been thinkinking about that scene the bronze where Spike touches Buff's wound and they both ahhhh scream Ummm(clearing my throut ) I uhh to me or for a tjhe lack of a better word or perhaps because it is the only word that comes to mind find this encounter orgasmic I find myself amused and aroused ;D at the same time. The expressions on the bystanders face is golden I find it akin to that infamous scene from When Harry Met Sally Am I alone in this? Is this feeling wrong ? . Does this puppy need to go to the vet? I've read the analyes so many times I enjoy it to no end ! Glad you liked the analyses, fredspuffed. I do not think you need to go to the vet. The episode is full of sexual imagery, and though I didn't consider that when thinking about Spike poking Buffy in her wound, it is not at all far-out. I also liked the way they showed the crowd around Spike & Buffy reacting to them. It didn't make me think of the Harry & Sally scene, but I can see the similarity now that you mention it. That scene made me think back to the scene of the people laughing and looking at William in 1880. Spike the misfit, no approval from the 1880s crowd, viewed with suspicion by the Sunnydale bar crowd. He finally gets approval from the bar crowd though, in the AtS Season finale. It also worked to increase the "couplehood" feel we get for Spike & Buffy in this episode. Everyone at the bar is wondering what is up with those two, at the same time we viewers are certainly wondering the same thing.
|
|
|
Post by Onjel on Aug 20, 2004 21:08:03 GMT -5
I know I am way off topic, but am I wrong or did Cecily the rejector, become Helfric the patron vengeance demon of children?
|
|
|
Post by LadyDi on Aug 22, 2004 12:07:00 GMT -5
I know I am way off topic, but am I wrong or did Cecily the rejector, become Helfric the patron vengeance demon of children? You're not entirely wrong, 'cuz the same actress played both roles. OTOH, there's nothing definitive about the Cecily/Halfrek connection in canon. It's a 'maybe/maybe not' we like to take out and play with every now and again.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Aug 23, 2004 6:42:10 GMT -5
I know I am way off topic, but am I wrong or did Cecily the rejector, become Helfric the patron vengeance demon of children? If you look on page 2 of this discussion FFL thread, you can see where this topic was discussed. Personally, I think the answer is "yes she did" because I can't figure out what other message we would get from what we see in . . . I forget the name of the ep . . . when they are stuck in the house together, and Halfrek and Spike recognize each other.
|
|