|
Post by SpringSummers on May 23, 2004 10:05:46 GMT -5
Spring - great analysis! I also love reading the S'cubie discusson that follows. I especially liked your image of the back porch scene between Spike and Buffy. I too felt that Buffy would have confided a little in Spike, given her emotional state at the time. She would instinctively know that Spike would know ("for some reason") how to react to bring her comfort. About Spike taking Buffy's clothes. I guess he was taking them for his "Buffy-shrine". But later - Warren would use the "smell" of her clothes to make the Buffy-bot. Thanks for the feeback, Karen. I have so many more eps to plow through, so it is good to get encouragement. Yes, I assume he is taking the clothes for the Buffy shrine, and for the smell and the feel and just to have anything initmately associated with Buffy near him and available to him. He's becoming obsessed, and it all gets more and more stalker-like, until Buffy's firm rejection in Crush, and the events around Joyce's death, and Glory's pursuit of Dawn, shake things up between them.
|
|
|
Post by Cal on May 23, 2004 10:20:24 GMT -5
Another great analysis, Spring. Thank you!
Season 5 is my favourite season of BtVS, so I'm especially enjoying these analyses. I learn something new every time.
Spike VERY pretty!
Looking forward to the next one.
Cal
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on May 23, 2004 19:58:13 GMT -5
Another great analysis, Spring. Thank you! Season 5 is my favourite season of BtVS, so I'm especially enjoying these analyses. I learn something new every time. Spike VERY pretty! Looking forward to the next one. Cal I love Season 5 too, so it is fun doing these analyses. Also very time consuming, and sometimes, when I look ahead to how many I have left to do, it gives me that overwhelmed feeling. So it is very nice to get your feedback and know that people are reading and enjoying. The feedback, along with the Spike-pretty thing (of course) keep me moving forward. I am having a bit of trouble getting a bead on Listening to Fear. Sometimes I get to an ep where I really feel like I'm missing something . . . but usually I just go ahead and pound out the analysis to the best of my ability anyhow (or I will never get done!).
|
|
|
Post by Kate (K8) on May 26, 2004 14:13:04 GMT -5
I love Season 5 too, so it is fun doing these analyses. Also very time consuming, and sometimes, when I look ahead to how many I have left to do, it gives me that overwhelmed feeling. So it is very nice to get your feedback and know that people are reading and enjoying. The feedback, along with the Spike-pretty thing (of course) keep me moving forward. I am having a bit of trouble getting a bead on Listening to Fear. Sometimes I get to an ep where I really feel like I'm missing something . . . but usually I just go ahead and pound out the analysis to the best of my ability anyhow (or I will never get done!). Definitely enjoy reading your analyses. Was watching Shadow today and noticed when Glory was talking to to the snake she said the key was "shrouded in shadow" too. Also, is it always that dark in CAT scan rooms?
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on May 26, 2004 15:58:37 GMT -5
Definitely enjoy reading your analyses. Was watching Shadow today and noticed when Glory was talking to to the snake she said the key was "shrouded in shadow" too. Also, is it always that dark in CAT scan rooms? First- thanks k8, for letting me know you are reading and enjoying. Have made some progress on the next ep and hope to have the analysis out by the end of the week. Yes - about the key being shrouded in shadow - there are definitely parallels being drawn between Spike & Dawn in Season 5, and I think they are sort of the light side and the dark side of Buffy. Notice how in Shadow Dawn upsets Riley in almost the exact same way Spike did, on the same subject matter - only she does it in this sunny, bright, well-intentioned way, while Spike does it in a mean-spirited deliberate way. But both Dawn and Spike express what is inside Buffy, though she isn't facing up to it. Spike and Dawn develop their own non-judgemental kinship independent of Buffy, and are both outsiders to the core group. I love the Spike & Dawn stuff in Season 5, though I'm not among those who were upset about its absence in Season 6. I mean, given what was going on in Season 6, I thought the way it played out made sense. Would have loved to see more about those two in Season 7 - but Season 7 was one big rush to set up and pack in that ending, and all the relationships really suffered. My biggest disappointment in the whole series, was the "no real time for the interpersonal relationships" feel of Season 7. On the CAT scan room - I know nothing about CAT scan rooms; have never been in one. Starting the ep out with that "testing for what's inside" scene really set the tone of the whole ep though. Thanks again for the feedback, k8.
|
|
|
Post by Cal on May 26, 2004 17:30:21 GMT -5
Definitely enjoy reading your analyses. Was watching Shadow today and noticed when Glory was talking to to the snake she said the key was "shrouded in shadow" too. Also, is it always that dark in CAT scan rooms? In my experience, CAT scan rooms are not usually that dark. But I suppose it could vary from hospital to hospital.
|
|
|
Post by Rob on May 27, 2004 1:36:20 GMT -5
Your interpretation of things is just right, Spring. Buffy had always had a darker side to her nature in the first 4 years, but "Restless" pretty much set the tone: Season 5 was beginning to confront that issue more directly. We all have that dark side, of course, but in her case, it's considerably more dangerous - to herself and others.
The more I watch the first 10 episodes of Season 5, the better I like them, mainly because they portray the slow, painful process of an emotional breakup better than any of the other Buffy pairings.
I still believe if they'd met as more mature people, things could have been very different. As it stood, though, Buffy had a good deal more growing to do...as did he, of course.
It wasn't so much the Slayer thing...obviously her mother's illness was totally unrelated to the supernatural. That, I think, is the most important point. To say Buffy/Riley didn't work because she was the Slayer is too easy. Buffy was the sort of person to shut out certain people, super strength or not. That failing (if one chooses to call it that) would've been there one way or the other.
I've said that before on another thread, but it bears repeating because of your analysis.
One last thought about Xander's perception of things: who better to recognize Buffy's inability to connect with a "normal" person (at that time, at least) than he?
Xander had been down this road a few years back...and as rough as it sounded, his bitter diagnosis of her attraction to darkness in "Prophecy Girl" after she shot him down was right on the mark. Spike just says it in his own unique way in "Shadow."
If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times: intellectual perception could generally be categorized as Giles and Willow's department. Emotional perceptiveness, however (especially when their own were detached), generally belongs to Xander and Spike.
That team worked really well, often despite themselves, for a reason.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on May 27, 2004 8:16:15 GMT -5
Your interpretation of things is just right, Spring. Buffy had always had a darker side to her nature in the first 4 years, but "Restless" pretty much set the tone: Season 5 was beginning to confront that issue more directly. We all have that dark side, of course, but in her case, it's considerably more dangerous - to herself and others. The more I watch the first 10 episodes of Season 5, the better I like them, mainly because they portray the slow, painful process of an emotional breakup better than any of the other Buffy pairings. I still believe if they'd met as more mature people, things could have been very different. As it stood, though, Buffy had a good deal more growing to do...as did he, of course. Thanks so much for your feedback, Rob. And well - I agree, but I feel you could say that last part above about most any couple: That things could have been different, better, if they'd met as more mature people. I think that there was a real underlying difference between Riley and Buffy (and The Scoobies) though - one that meant that though they were both good people, they simply weren't really right for each other. Riley's military-style approach and mind-set was in such sharp contrast to the gang, and pointed to an important difference in basic world-view, thought processes, values. . . not trivial stuff. Agree. Also - Buffy is still very wounded by the Angel-thing. She is very protective of her heart. Riley wants in, but Buffy's not ready to let anyone in ("when the music starts, we open up our hearts!" - but then she got so hurt, and she shut it down for awhile). I wouldn't call it a failing so much. Everyone does it, especially after major heartbreak. And even without major heartbreak, no one is open to everyone. It is normal and OK to feel a certain sympathy and comfort with some and not others. Sometimes it is obvious why we are comfortable with person A but not B; other times it is more mysterious - but nevertheless, unless we are seeking out abuse and pain it is very human and normal and not necessarily the sign of a problem. BUT, Buffy actually does seek out abuse and pain to a certain extent, with both Angel and Spike (in different ways) and I see that as a symptom of her abandonment and self-esteem issues. Yes. I loved the Xander/Riley interaction throughout Riley's tenure on BtVS. Xander, I think, could identify with Riley to a certain extent, and so he found it much easier to root for Riley than for Angel. Who wouldn't?? But it was a complex picture - Xander was a very sincerely loving friend, but he had his dark side too. I am looking forward to exploring this aspect in some depth when I get to Into The Woods, which will be soon. Please stop back by to give us your insights for that analyses in particular. Yes. And that's a lot of what Xander and Spike's own "love/hate," "friends/enemies" relationship is all about, I think. They are attracted to each other because they understand each other very well; they hate each other for the same reason. Xander is so very unimpressed with Spike's "big bad" act and likes to let him know that; Spike takes every opportunity to let Xander know he sees through to the insecure Xander core as well. Kind of like the S'cubies.
|
|
|
Post by Kate (K8) on May 28, 2004 10:53:42 GMT -5
BUT, Buffy actually does seek out abuse and pain to a certain extent, with both Angel and Spike (in different ways) and I see that as a symptom of her abandonment and self-esteem issues. Haven't seen much of the early seasons recently so was wondering if you could tell me when Buffy was seeking pain with Angel.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on May 28, 2004 13:10:02 GMT -5
Haven't seen much of the early seasons recently so was wondering if you could tell me when Buffy was seeking pain with Angel. Hi, k8. Yes, I can tell you what I meant by the "Angel part" of my comment that "Buffy actually does seek out abuse and pain to a certain extent, with both Angel and Spike (in different ways) and I see that as a symptom of her abandonment and self-esteem issues."I was referring to the fact that Buffy is wildly attracted to a guy who is a broody, in much pain, 200+ year old vampire with a soul. He pretty much has "This can't possibly work out and is going to end up causing you tremendous pain" stamped all over him. But that doesn't put her off at all. She's attracted to him. She finds out he is a vampire - this means that he won't age, and can't go out in the sunlight and can't give her children - ever, ever, ever. Then she finds out he has a curse that means he can never even provide for her sexually. She finds this out the very, very hard way, and goes through horrible angst and pain. Still doesn't put her off at all; she's still attracted to him. When Spike tells her, in various ways in several eps, that she sees herself as a martyr (Joan!) and is attracted to/addicted to pain, I think he's right. And I think we see it in both her attraction to and relationship with Angel, and her attraction to, and relationship with, Spike. I don't think this really starts to change for Buffy until we get into Season 7. She starts to overcome her abandonment and related self-esteem issues, which I think, along with the truly terrible burden of Slayerhood and everything it means, are at the heart of her attraction to pain/martyrdom. This is not to say that this is all there was to Buffy, or to her relationships with Angel or Spike. Not at all. But it was a part of the picture, an important part of the picture, I think.
|
|
|
Post by Nickim on Jul 12, 2004 13:39:09 GMT -5
Spring, I'm in awe, as usual. I loved how you picked up on all the shadows. One comment on the "bumpy forehead" thing. Testerone makes men have a heavier, more protruding browbone. So I guess "bumpy" equals more masculine. CAT scan rooms aren't usually dark, but MRI rooms are--just to calm you down, I think.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Jul 13, 2004 5:25:12 GMT -5
Spring, I'm in awe, as usual. I loved how you picked up on all the shadows. One comment on the "bumpy forehead" thing. Testerone makes men have a heavier, more protruding browbone. So I guess "bumpy" equals more masculine. CAT scan rooms aren't usually dark, but MRI rooms are--just to calm you down, I think. So - you're saying men have thicker skullls? Who'd a thunk it? As always, thanks for the feedback, Nicki.
|
|
|
Post by Linda on Jul 25, 2004 1:19:27 GMT -5
Brava Spring! Another great analysis!
I apologize that I did not post here earlier to say so. I have only this weekend been able to watch this episode along with your analysis with the attention it deserved. Thank you for pointing out the various meanings & incarnations of the term Shadow.
I felt so bad for Riley. As you pointed out, he was constantly being hit with the fact that Buffy didn't love him and that he didn't "get" her. In retrospect, it is obvious that he was not the "long haul guy", since it turns out that he's an anti-truth teller with his comforting lies that two of the Shadows - Joyce's tumor & Spike were "nothing."
Oh, and eetah on the Marc & James scene. And I think JM adds the extra layer of what I saw as Spike's genuine concern for Buffy as he tells Riley about Joyce being in the hospital. Sigh.
Yup, Spike pretty.
Linda, apologies again for this late posting.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Jul 26, 2004 5:31:28 GMT -5
Brava Spring! Another great analysis! I apologize that I did not post here earlier to say so. I have only this weekend been able to watch this episode along with your analysis with the attention it deserved. Thank you for pointing out the various meanings & incarnations of the term Shadow. I felt so bad for Riley. As you pointed out, he was constantly being hit with the fact that Buffy didn't love him and that he didn't "get" her. In retrospect, it is obvious that he was not the "long haul guy", since it turns out that he's an anti-truth teller with his comforting lies that two of the Shadows - Joyce's tumor & Spike were "nothing." Oh, and eetah on the Marc & James scene. And I think JM adds the extra layer of what I saw as Spike's genuine concern for Buffy as he tells Riley about Joyce being in the hospital. Sigh. Yup, Spike pretty. Linda, apologies again for this late posting. Thank you, Linda - and no need to apologize. No posting is too late! Yes - I hadn't really consciously noticed that, but in the S/R scene, I agree - you do get the sense that even though Spike is using his knowledge to needle Riley, he has genuine concern for Buffy. That is really a well done scene. Both MB & JM really add nuances to their performance so that you can see right through to how the character is really feeling despite what they are saying.
|
|
|
Post by Michelle on Jul 28, 2004 14:25:44 GMT -5
She finds out he is a vampire - this means that he won't age, and can't go out in the sunlight and can't give her children - ever, ever, ever. Then she finds out he has a curse that means he can never even provide for her sexually. She finds this out the very, very hard way, and goes through horrible angst and pain. Still doesn't put her off at all; she's still attracted to him. Spring, excellent analysis of 'Shadow'! I am anxiously awaiting your next installment. Each one further enriches my appreciation for the show. I know these are a lot of work for you, but I personally would be devestated if you were unable to continue! I also agree with your comments about Buffy's attraction to pain and suffering. That is even exemplified in the scene where she and Angel make love. They are both wet; she is sniffly and cold. She is sad because Angel *almost* left to stash the Judge parts on the other side of the world. She fishes for sympathy by making a little hurty noise over the cut on her back. Angel looks at it and pronounces it already closed--so why does she act as if she's in pain? As she leans towards him to give him a kiss, she is semi-crying. It would appear that for Buffy, angst is almost the equivalent of sexual desire.
|
|