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Post by SpringSummers on Aug 9, 2004 5:51:55 GMT -5
This is what I mean w/the rationalize. I know (intellectually) Buffy's in a much different place in s3 than s7. And yes, ME did a lot to imply the wrongness, but it's still very bothersome. Her conversation w/Angel in Chosen is somewhat mitigating. I think Spike would've appreciated the Dawson's Creek ref. As for the kiss, I had a very nasty s2 flashback. Once again Spike is watching from the shadows as the woman he loves kisses Angel. Have been wondering why Spike wouldn't make his presence known. Maybe he wanted to see what Buffy would do? Notice how different his reaction is in Season 7 than it was in Season 2. He's angry and hurt but after drawing a lovely likeness of Angel and punching the punching bag and talking it out a bit with Buffy, he's OK. He doesn't wallow in the pain and inferiority complex thing, and hatch plans to go beat the hell out of Angel. I don't know. Some women already have children, or can't have them, etc. And the sunshine thing could be worked out. Of course, there's always the Shanshu thing to fix that too - so I don't consider this aspect so much a "deal-breaker" when it comes to Spike & Buffy. I think it's part of the reason Buffy isn't going back to either Angel or Spike at this point. But either one could Shanshu. I don't think she's (or they) would go back even then, because it's not just about the lack of fat grandchildren or sunshine. But it isn't just Spike's murderous past. I can see a new woman he might meet, who comes to know and love and trust him as he is NOW, being able to handle it. But it's his past WITH BUFFY. And I don't mean just the ways he hurt her, but the ways she hurt him. I don't think it would be good for him to go back with someone who treated him as Buffy did, and I can't see Joss ever doing that with one of his characters, not in any permanent way. Sending Spike back to be with Buffy would be like sending Buffy back to be with Angel. Wrong direction. I agree. I don't get the same feeling of WRONG for BUFFY, with Spike, as I do with Angel, because it is not sending her backwards. Angel is a HS love who basically thought of her as a pure and innocent child, etc. But sending Spike back to Buffy gives me that same feeling of WRONG. Wrong for Spike. Once he truly grows into a strong sense of self and independence, he isn't going to want to go back. In fact, he's already feeling this, this sort of thing is already stirring in him, in Season 5 AtS. Hmmm. You mean Buffy and Dana, the one who cut off his hands?
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Post by Cal on Aug 9, 2004 14:50:12 GMT -5
I'd like to think it was just a "hello." They hadn't seen each other in almost two years, after all. Problem w/that is it just seemed to go on a little too long. Plus, I will never understand why it's ok for her to mack on the guy who killed her friends and tortured her watcher, but not the guy who tried but failed to hurt her. I can hardly even watch season 3 anymore (except for Lover's Walk) w/o feeling a little queasy. I can rationalize 'til I'm blue, but it just feels fundamentally wrong. ITA, LadyDi!! That is exactly how I feel. It is something that frustrates me enormously.
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Post by Cal on Aug 9, 2004 15:03:19 GMT -5
I was thinking that this issue was actually dealt with in the Season Seven episodes Conversations With Dead People, Sleeper, and Never Leave Me. In the basement scene in Sleeper, Buffy is faced with Spike's freshest crimes. I believe she makes the distinction that these crimes were committed without his soul's will or permission. I also believe, by extension, that the crimes he committed as an unchipped and unsouled vampire were put into the same category. I *don't* think it was an easy decision for her to toss aside that stake, despite Spike's physical recoil from the memory of his latest killings. And yes, I think she *was* queasy by that decision's implications. In Never Leave Me, Buffy makes it clear that she believes in him and his ability to be a better man, despite his past (which he so vividly evoked to get her to kill him.) I think the rest of the season is Buffy getting over her queasiness about Spike's past, to the point where she trusts him to get in touch with his inner demon in Get it Done. Demands it, in fact. Linda, umm, I could never get over any RL queasy of this magnitude, but I think BtVS did work it out in this special instance... Well said, Linda. I'm in total agreement with you here. This is an interesting discussion you've all got going. I can never understand how Angel seems to be forgiven for his unsouled crimes, but Spike is not. It's something that angers me immensely. The AR is brought up time and time again (in fandom, not just the show), but Angel's murder of JC and torture of Giles is not. They were both soulless when these crimes were committed. The difference is, Spike had changed enough to stop his soulless demon from raping Buffy, Angel(us) hadn't. Angel(us) relished the kill and still does when he is set free from the soul. Spike began his redemption long before he got his soul. It still surprises me that so many people refuse to see that.
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Post by Cal on Aug 9, 2004 15:14:20 GMT -5
Well said, and I agree. Most of Season 7 is about Buffy successfully getting past the queasy. Not just about Spike's past, but about her own history in her relationship with him. And we hear it most strongly in Buffy's contention in Chosen, to Angel of all people, that Spike is "in her heart." Huge, astounding deal - Buffy's kept that romantic heart shut tight as a drum ever since Angel left. But I don't think that means that Spike's history would no longer come into play when it came to Buffy & Spike trying to get together again and make a go of it as a long-term committed romantic couple. It would come into play. Spike's history, Buffy's history, the history of their relationship, what they both need and want for the future - it would all come into play. And it doesn't add up to "YES" for me. I'll never figure out exactly how to put this into words. Well, maybe I will by the time I get around to analyzing Chosen (which, if I can't pick up the pace, will be the year 3000). But the Buffy I see at the end of Chosen isn't going to be hooking up with either Angel or Spike, ever. And the Spike I see at the end of AtS's finale isn't heading toward Buffy. I don't agree with you here, Spring. The Buffy that I see at the end of Chosen could have ended up with Spike, had he lived. I have no doubt in my mind. If there had been a season 8, the love that they had for each other would have continued to grow. I truly believe that. Probably just wishful thinking, but it's how I feel. At the end of AtS, Spike was more his own person, I agree. And I was happy to see that. Not everything was all about Buffy any more. We see lots of character development for Spike in AtS. But I still believe that, in time, Spike and Buffy could have found each other again. His feelings for her hadn't changed. You could see that in TGIQ. Much as I disliked that episode when I first watched it, the look on Spike's face when Andrew said that Buffy loved them both, said it all to me. I will go down with this 'ship. ;D
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Post by fredspuffed on Aug 9, 2004 16:10:51 GMT -5
Well said, Linda. I'm in total agreement with you here. This is an interesting discussion you've all got going. I can never understand how Angel seems to be forgiven for his unsouled crimes, but Spike is not. It's something that angers me immensely. The AR is brought up time and time again (in fandom, not just the show), but Angel's murder of JC and torture of Giles is not. They were both soulless when these crimes were committed. The difference is, Spike had changed enough to stop his soulless demon from raping Buffy, Angel(us) hadn't. Angel(us) relished the kill and still does when he is set free from the soul. Spike began his redemption long before he got his soul. It still surprises me that so many people refuse to see that. I know time and time again i see the seperation thingy but he** there all the same person -- angel has to come to terms w/ that i suppose its his ahum lack of soul that messes w/everyone (ikinda think he had a little in there) --who wouldnt i was peeved at buffy alot -- how she showered Angel with the lovens and Spike well --- i know he had to get her to open up again --
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Post by fredspuffed on Aug 9, 2004 16:13:24 GMT -5
I don't agree with you here, Spring. The Buffy that I see at the end of Chosen could have ended up with Spike, had he lived. I have no doubt in my mind. If there had been a season 8, the love that they had for each other would have continued to grow. I truly believe that. Probably just wishful thinking, but it's how I feel. At the end of AtS, Spike was more his own person, I agree. And I was happy to see that. Not everything was all about Buffy any more. We see lots of character development for Spike in AtS. But I still believe that, in time, Spike and Buffy could have found each other again. His feelings for her hadn't changed. You could see that in TGIQ. Much as I disliked that episode when I first watched it, the look on Spike's face when Andrew said that Buffy loved them both, said it all to me. I will go down with this 'ship. ;D i so feel that too --- but at this point i wouold lonve to see a movie w/ jm and smg w/ a happy ending but that is crazy thinking -never happen n fact forget i said that
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Post by Cal on Aug 9, 2004 16:58:14 GMT -5
i so feel that too --- but at this point i wouold lonve to see a movie w/ jm and smg w/ a happy ending but that is crazy thinking -never happen n fact forget i said that LOL! As much as I'd like that to happen, it never will. Ah well...we can but dream.
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Post by Laura on Aug 9, 2004 20:43:32 GMT -5
Well said, Linda. I'm in total agreement with you here. This is an interesting discussion you've all got going. I can never understand how Angel seems to be forgiven for his unsouled crimes, but Spike is not. It's something that angers me immensely. The AR is brought up time and time again (in fandom, not just the show), but Angel's murder of JC and torture of Giles is not. They were both soulless when these crimes were committed. The difference is, Spike had changed enough to stop his soulless demon from raping Buffy, Angel(us) hadn't. Angel(us) relished the kill and still does when he is set free from the soul. Spike began his redemption long before he got his soul. It still surprises me that so many people refuse to see that. See, Cal, you lost me with this. The only person in the Joss-verse who "forgave" Angel his "unsouled crimes" ("forgave" in the sense of "overlooked") was Buffy -- and we acknowledge that she had a blind spot for Angel. But Giles certainly didn't "forgive" Angel for his torture -- he may have gotten past it, because it was necessary in order for both Giles and Angel to be helpful to Buffy -- but he didn't forgive Angel.
Neither did Xander -- in fact, I don't know that he ever came to terms with Angel, either pre- or post-Angelus.
Willow "liked" Angel again once he saved her life, but I don't know that she was big with the trusting him.
And frankly, I don't think that Angel has forgiven himself for what he did. It's part of why he's searching for redemption.
As for Spike -- his pre-chip "unsouled crimes" don't seem to be much the issue with the Scoobie. After all, evil vampire -- it's what he's supposed to do. I think that the Scoobies faulted him more for whatever "evil" he did post-chip -- it's why they were all pissed off at him for trying to split them up in The Yoko Factor and in As You Were, and it's why Buffy said to him "I could never trust you" after the AR. It's because they'd already seen him trying to be good, and being good, that his post-chip crimes seem so much worse to him
But Spike's "souled crimes" certainly weren't held against him, once the Gang realized that he was being manipulated by the First. Or, at least, Buffy was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, and the others eventually followed suit.
What was my point again? I know I had one! ;D Oh yeah.
I don't think that there was a dual standard applied to the two. Buffy's blind spot for the two of them notwithstanding.
And again I say, none of the three of them should be with each other. No going backwards.[/size]
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Post by SpringSummers on Aug 10, 2004 5:24:53 GMT -5
See, Cal, you lost me with this. The only person in the Joss-verse who "forgave" Angel his "unsouled crimes" ("forgave" in the sense of "overlooked") was Buffy -- and we acknowledge that she had a blind spot for Angel. But Giles certainly didn't "forgive" Angel for his torture -- he may have gotten past it, because it was necessary in order for both Giles and Angel to be helpful to Buffy -- but he didn't forgive Angel. <snip> I agree. The none of the characters really "forgave" Angel except Buffy. And she didn't so much forgive him, as turn a blind eye to the idea that he had any culpability whatsoever. Of course, "except Buffy" is kind of a big "except," in a show called "Buffy The Vampire Slayer." And it did seem to influence a lot of fans. I think cal is talking somewhat about that. I mean about fans who forgive Angel, who have the "Buffy blind-eye" on the Angel crimes, but not on the Spike crimes. But really - that's going to happen. You see it vice-versa as well - fans forgiving Spike but not Angel. People have their biases. I thought ME presented things clearly: Both guys must take responsibility for their unsouled actions. I don't think Angel has comes to terms with it all. He seems to be, on the surface, trying to cling to the idea that it "wasn't him" who committed the crimes, so "let's move on." But underneath it all, I think he knows it's not that simple, and the guilt eats at him. I think Season 6 was being set up to show us Angel coming to terms with this kind of thing. (Curses on the WB!!). [/color][/size][/quote] Buffy applied a dual-standard, but that was fully exposed and in-character. There are fans who apply a double-standard because they can't see any farther than teenage Buffy, but I don't fault ME for that. Agree, of course, on the "going backward" thing.
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Post by SpringSummers on Aug 10, 2004 5:34:57 GMT -5
I don't agree with you here, Spring. The Buffy that I see at the end of Chosen could have ended up with Spike, had he lived. I have no doubt in my mind. If there had been a season 8, the love that they had for each other would have continued to grow. I truly believe that. Probably just wishful thinking, but it's how I feel. At the end of AtS, Spike was more his own person, I agree. And I was happy to see that. Not everything was all about Buffy any more. We see lots of character development for Spike in AtS. But I still believe that, in time, Spike and Buffy could have found each other again. His feelings for her hadn't changed. You could see that in TGIQ. Much as I disliked that episode when I first watched it, the look on Spike's face when Andrew said that Buffy loved them both, said it all to me. I will go down with this 'ship. ;D I agree with you that Buffy loved Spike at the end of Chosen and that Spike still loves Buffy (and likely, Buffy still loves Spike) at the end of AtS. But that's not all it was about. Spike loved Buffy, but he literally didn't sail on that ship. I think the implication is that despite his love for her, he knows he also needs time to "bake," and who knows what he will want when he's a "fully baked cookie." I was glad because Spike was very, very badly in need of time to define himself away from women. And once he does, I'm thinking he won't want to go back to be with Buffy. In many ways, she was Spike's "Angel." Buffy shouldn't go back to the one she idealized and who was almost a parental figure to her, and neither should Spike. I hope we do see some movies or a spin-off that shows us growth and independence for Spike.
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Post by Michelle on Aug 10, 2004 7:22:51 GMT -5
I agree with you that Buffy loved Spike at the end of Chosen and that Spike still loves Buffy (and likely, Buffy still loves Spike) at the end of AtS. But that's not all it was about. Spike loved Buffy, but he literally didn't sail on that ship. I think the implication is that despite his love for her, he knows he also needs time to "bake," and who knows what he will want when he's a "fully baked cookie." I do agree with this, Spring. If Buffy has had 20+ years to "bake," and she's no where near being done, than I imagine Spike is going to take quite a bit longer now that he has to deal with his brand spankin' new soul. I was glad because Spike was very, very badly in need of time to define himself away from women. And once he does, I'm thinking he won't want to go back to be with Buffy. I agree with the first sentence, but I'm still not sure if I agree with the second. Spike does need to learn to be his own man, and I think he was well on his way to doing that by the end of NFA. However, a part of me believes that both Buffy and Spike deserve to come back together, even if only for a brief time, and appreciate each other, finally, as equals. I see BTVS Season 5 as a kind of "foreplay" to Season 6, as far as the Buffy/Spike relationship is concerned. It held great promise for what Buffy and Spike could be for one another. But then, in Season 6, when they finally did start a relationship (if you want to call it that) things went horribly, horribly, wrong. Buffy was so disgusted with herself, and Spike was so very confused about his place in her world, and the world in general, that the relationship combusted. Towards the end of Season 7, Buffy had come to believe in Spike's goodness, and trust was definitely beginning to form. But I think Buffy was still using Spike to a certain extent. She wanted a loyal warrior, someone to back her up in a fight, and to not question her authority. But Spike could be much more than that to Buffy. And she could be much more than a goddess/mother figure to him. Again, by the end of Season 7, I saw the seeds of that forming, another kind of "foreplay," if you will, to their relationship. But I didn't get to see the culmination of it, and I feel it would be very satisfying to see that played out. Satisfying for the fans--and for the characters!
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Post by Cal on Aug 10, 2004 8:15:08 GMT -5
Of course, "except Buffy" is kind of a big "except," in a show called "Buffy The Vampire Slayer." And it did seem to influence a lot of fans. I think cal is talking somewhat about that. I mean about fans who forgive Angel, who have the "Buffy blind-eye" on the Angel crimes, but not on the Spike crimes. But really - that's going to happen. You see it vice-versa as well - fans forgiving Spike but not Angel. People have their biases. I thought ME presented things clearly: Both guys must take responsibility for their unsouled actions. That was exactly what I was talking about, Spring. I love the character of Spike (had you guessed? ), but I also love Angel. I just don't get the constant bickering between fans on who is the most "deserving" vamp. Yes, ME did present things clearly. Both vamps must take responsibility for their unsouled actions. By the end of AtS, I think they had gone a long way towards doing that.
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Post by Cal on Aug 10, 2004 8:35:44 GMT -5
See, Cal, you lost me with this. The only person in the Joss-verse who "forgave" Angel his "unsouled crimes" ("forgave" in the sense of "overlooked") was Buffy -- and we acknowledge that she had a blind spot for Angel. But Giles certainly didn't "forgive" Angel for his torture -- he may have gotten past it, because it was necessary in order for both Giles and Angel to be helpful to Buffy -- but he didn't forgive Angel. I was talking more about in fandom than in the show, Laura. I just don't get it. I love them both. I don't see one vamp as being more "deserving" of redemption than the other one. I don't think that the Scoobies did give Spike "the benefit of the doubt" or forgive him for his past actions. Giles certainly didn't. This has been an interesting discussion, everyone. It's what makes this place such a good place to visit. We all have our own opinions on things, but can discuss them in a friendly manner. There aren't many places like this around any more (I can only think of one other).
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Post by Cal on Aug 10, 2004 8:45:06 GMT -5
Towards the end of Season 7, Buffy had come to believe in Spike's goodness, and trust was definitely beginning to form. But I think Buffy was still using Spike to a certain extent. She wanted a loyal warrior, someone to back her up in a fight, and to not question her authority. But Spike could be much more than that to Buffy. And she could be much more than a goddess/mother figure to him. Again, by the end of Season 7, I saw the seeds of that forming, another kind of "foreplay," if you will, to their relationship. But I didn't get to see the culmination of it, and I feel it would be very satisfying to see that played out. Satisfying for the fans--and for the characters! I agree with the majority of this, Fotada. By the end of Season 7 their relationship was definitely moving forward. If there had been a Season 8, I think that we would have seen the culmination of it.
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Post by Cal on Aug 10, 2004 8:49:20 GMT -5
I hope we do see some movies or a spin-off that shows us growth and independence for Spike. I hope so too, Spring. But I still hold on to my dream that one day Buffy and Spike will get the chance to be together. I guess that's something we'll have to agree to disagree on.
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