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Post by Lissa on Aug 10, 2004 13:27:47 GMT -5
I agree with the majority of this, Fotada. By the end of Season 7 their relationship was definitely moving forward. If there had been a Season 8, I think that we would have seen the culmination of it. I think if there would have been a season 8, that they would first have built up Spike in a slower rate and only at the end have let them get together. It felt somewhat rushed now and the relationship far from complete. In my opinion, Buffy was using Spike and I think Spike knew it.
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Post by SpringSummers on Aug 10, 2004 13:44:27 GMT -5
I hope so too, Spring. But I still hold on to my dream that one day Buffy and Spike will get the chance to be together. I guess that's something we'll have to agree to disagree on. As long as we agree that Spike is mine, I am cool with all other disagreements, cal.
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Post by Lissa on Aug 10, 2004 14:07:13 GMT -5
See, Cal, you lost me with this. The only person in the Joss-verse who "forgave" Angel his "unsouled crimes" ("forgave" in the sense of "overlooked") was Buffy -- and we acknowledge that she had a blind spot for Angel. But Giles certainly didn't "forgive" Angel for his torture -- he may have gotten past it, because it was necessary in order for both Giles and Angel to be helpful to Buffy -- but he didn't forgive Angel.
Neither did Xander -- in fact, I don't know that he ever came to terms with Angel, either pre- or post-Angelus.
Willow "liked" Angel again once he saved her life, but I don't know that she was big with the trusting him.
And frankly, I don't think that Angel has forgiven himself for what he did. It's part of why he's searching for redemption.
As for Spike -- his pre-chip "unsouled crimes" don't seem to be much the issue with the Scoobie. After all, evil vampire -- it's what he's supposed to do. I think that the Scoobies faulted him more for whatever "evil" he did post-chip -- it's why they were all pissed off at him for trying to split them up in The Yoko Factor and in As You Were, and it's why Buffy said to him "I could never trust you" after the AR. It's because they'd already seen him trying to be good, and being good, that his post-chip crimes seem so much worse to him
But Spike's "souled crimes" certainly weren't held against him, once the Gang realized that he was being manipulated by the First. Or, at least, Buffy was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, and the others eventually followed suit.
Giles is pretty simple. He doesn't trust either vampire and never will. In Becoming he used Jenny's death as an excuse allow to perform the ensouling spell. (In my opinion his biggest fault as it was totally irresponsible and cost Kendra's life and brought Buffy in total disaster, not to mention is opened Willow's door to black magic. He allowed Willow to use black magic!). I don't blame Giles so much for it as he is a Watcher afterall. He's finally doing what needs to be done. Only one thing: he has been an ensouled demon himself. Shouldn't that have given him some sympathy to both vampires? Is Buffy that forgiving? She didn't forgive Anya. She was still very scared that she might have to kill Willow when she came back. She was simply in love with Angel, and that brought out her forgiveness. The same with Spike. I'm not sure at all if she has forgiven him or trust him. She said in Empty Spaces that Spike is the only one left that she trusts (Xander being out of business). But, I'm simply not so sure if she really meant that or to provoke Giles. An other thing with Giles is that, maybe, he hasn't forgiven Spike for not successfully having protected Dawn in The Gift. While he had to kill Ben. Willow wants to help everybody and especially be Buffy's best friend, cause she very insecure. She has slipped from the right track herself now, that will make her forgiving Spike and Angel - at least partly. But, with her it's very hard to tell. She has been Evil herself, maybe that would bring out forgiveness, but trust never as long as she can't trust herself. Xander has always been open about his opinion to both vampires. Especially to Angel. But, Yoko Factor he admitted to Riley that it wasn't Angel he hated, but the curse. (Although I always thought that he simply didn't like Angel's character as a person. Angel being Captain Cardboard and a coward.). I think he has forgiven Angel what he did as Angelus, but not what he did as Angel. I think that he does like Spike's character though. Spike would never kill Buffy to save his own ass for example, to speak in Xander's words about Angel. A couple of times, for example in season five ep, Spiral, he reached out to have some male companionship with Spike. It was mostly Buffy that disrupted a possible friendship between the two in S6. In S7 he accepted Spike very quickly. He worked together with him, but for the rest of it remained strained. And he was the one who came up with the soul triggering. That means he trusted Spike. Besides, Spike had already saved Xander's life and would save him the other eye. And one other thing: in selfless he said that they should do everything to get a member of a team back. (Refering to Anya and Willow). I think this episode was for Buffy crusial in trusting/accepting Spike. I think he trusts Spike more than Angel. A big difference between Giles and Xander is that blames himself too and Giles isn't as informed about Spike's better things as Xander is. (The one who sees thing). (Xander knows Spike has protected Dawn in Intervention, he was the one who in a his own typical way made open Buffy's eyes to the possibility. Xander knows about the flowers for Joyce. Knows about his help in Him, etc. Dawn. Doesn't trust Spike. Could be in the future though. She is too young to realize what has happened. She would never forgive Spike for the AR. Some of my own thoughts
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Post by Cal on Aug 10, 2004 14:09:25 GMT -5
I think if there would have been a season 8, that they would first have built up Spike in a slower rate and only at the end have let them get together. It felt somewhat rushed now and the relationship far from complete. In my opinion, Buffy was using Spike and I think Spike knew it. I agree that it would have taken time. But I do believe that in the end, Buffy and Spike would have been together.
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Post by Cal on Aug 10, 2004 14:10:16 GMT -5
That we will never agree on, Spring. ;D
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Post by Lissa on Aug 10, 2004 14:17:27 GMT -5
I don't think it would be good for him to go back with someone who treated him as Buffy did, and I can't see Joss ever doing that with one of his characters, not in any permanent way. Sending Spike back to be with Buffy would be like sending Buffy back to be with Angel. Wrong direction. I agree. I don't get the same feeling of WRONG for BUFFY, with Spike, as I do with Angel, because it is not sending her backwards. Angel is a HS love who basically thought of her as a pure and innocent child, etc. But sending Spike back to Buffy gives me that same feeling of WRONG. Wrong for Spike. Once he truly grows into a strong sense of self and independence, he isn't going to want to go back. In fact, he's already feeling this, this sort of thing is already stirring in him, in Season 5 AtS. I'm afraid to say that I agree. But, then what kind of guy should Buffy have if not Spike? A fantasy guy? A guy like the Immortal who she can use and redeem? Or a normal guy who has the ability to put it up with her? If such a guy excists
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Post by fredspuffed on Aug 10, 2004 16:34:09 GMT -5
I agree with everyone of you . I totally see were everyone is coming from. I felt alot of the time I was getting crumbs,and it bothered me. I wanted more ( no well I don't see s6 as going backwards , alot of denile going --- and come on Buffy supposed to be full of love ---I think she was so full she was numb , I know a little bit about this being a raw nerve sensitive person I am ---I honestly have lost were I'm going from here) Ah well any way after the series ended I was conflicted I wanted to stop feeling guilty about liking spike/buffy together---- this site and board does that in spades .... thanks sorry for the ramble I'm a runon sentence, so sue
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Post by Cal on Aug 10, 2004 18:17:30 GMT -5
I agree with everyone of you . I totally see were everyone is coming from. I felt alot of the time I was getting crumbs,and it bothered me. I wanted more ( no well I don't see s6 as going backwards , alot of denile going --- and come on Buffy supposed to be full of love ---I think she was so full she was numb , I know a little bit about this being a raw nerve sensitive person I am ---I honestly have lost were I'm going from here) Ah well any way after the series ended I was conflicted I wanted to stop feeling guilty about liking spike/buffy together---- this site and board does that in spades .... thanks sorry for the ramble I'm a runon sentence, so sue Don't ever feel guilty for liking Spike and Buffy together. We like who we like and we all have different opinions. I've come across a lot of hatred for Spuffy in the past. That's how I found the S3...looking for a safe haven. It's a good place to be. I'm glad you found us.
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Post by Linda on Aug 10, 2004 23:55:35 GMT -5
Giles is pretty simple. He doesn't trust either vampire and never will. In Becoming he used Jenny's death as an excuse allow to perform the ensouling spell. (In my opinion his biggest fault as it was totally irresponsible and cost Kendra's life and brought Buffy in total disaster, not to mention is opened Willow's door to black magic. He allowed Willow to use black magic!). I don't blame Giles so much for it as he is a Watcher afterall. He's finally doing what needs to be done. Only one thing: he has been an ensouled demon himself. Shouldn't that have given him some sympathy to both vampires? <snip> Hi Lissa! I have a few disagreements following. I hope you don't mind. And as the S'cubies say: Assume the IMO. I disagree about Giles’ culpability here. Plot point: Angelus and Dru did *not* know about the re-ensouling ritual. When the opening of the Big Rock exposed Acathla, Dru says “He fills my head.” And her visions were obscured by it. The only reason they went to the Library was because they needed to retrieve Giles for his info-laden brain. The plan to distract Buffy was only to separate her from Giles. If they were trying to stop the ritual, they would have specifically killed Willow. So anyone around Giles would have been in danger and Kendra died because of her duty, not because of Giles or any of his decisions. I agree that Giles was more in favor of the ritual than against it because a) Jenny seemed to have wanted it and b) it would neutralize Angel as a threat. And so, both his heart and his intellect played a role in his preference. However, this decision would *not* have been easy for him. In fact, I believe that Jenny’s death would have caused him to want Angel to REMAIN a monster that Buffy could kill without ambivalence. And he warned both Buffy and Willow about the danger. But he also allowed the final decision to be the Slayer’s. In a way, I think restoring Angel's soul was the same sort of decision that led to his killing Ben. It was for the good of the world. Despite the cost to his own spirit. Regarding Giles’ sympathy to Angel: after losing the love of his life and being sadistically tortured, I’m always amazed that he let Angel back into his apartment only a year and a half later in Season 4. And he would only ever do such a thing for Buffy’s sake. Considering the possibility that Angel could lose his soul, there are so very many reasons for him not to do so. And I believe Giles DOES sympathize a bit with Spike. However, the sympathy gets tossed out the door as soon as he knows that Spike has feelings for Buffy. Later, though, as seen in Bargaining I when Buffy’s out of the picture, he trusts chipped Spike to watch his back in battle. But in season 7, it is probably his biggest worry (other than the approaching Watcherless Apocalypse) that Buffy’s going to travel down the same road with Spike as she did with Angel. Note that it’s when he knows she has such strong feelings for Spike that he takes steps (LMPTM) to make sure another Angelus-type disaster cannot happen. And it almost cost him his relationship with Buffy. Opinion: Buffy DID forgive Anya. When Anya proved her remorse and desire for redemption. Buffy proved her forgiveness by bringing Anya back to live with them for her own safety. Buffy’s willingness to make the hard decision to kill one of her loved ones if they put the world in danger (whether it is Anya or Willow or Angel) says more about her sense of duty than her ability to forgive. Her decisions to slay are very rarely about vengeance. Also opinion: Yep, Buffy trusts Spike. Not just winding Giles up. Also opinion: It was the entire Scooby gang’s responsibility to save the world and Dawn. I dunno that Giles would have blamed Spike specifically for Dawn’s blood leakage. I don't think he even knew that Buffy had assigned Spike to special Dawn duty, either. Good point. Opinion: Xander REALLY doesn’t like or trust Angel OR Angelus. Aside from your reasons stated above, I think he would hold souled-Angel responsible for the act that lost him his soul in the first place. And therefore all of the Angelus-pain inflicted on the ones he loved would be almost as hard for him to forgive as it would be for Dawn to forgive Spike for the attempted rape. I believe that Xander would have been friends with souled, sane, de-chipped, de-triggered Spike if they had had more time. But there were still issues to be hashed out that didn’t get hashed out. See first paragraphs above re: Giles. I'm not sure I understand about her being too young to realize what's happened. I know she knows about the attempted rape. She threatened him with fire in Beneath You. I don't know if she had quite forgiven him for it by the end of the series. It is so much harder to forgive someone who hurt your loved ones than someone who hurt you, yourself. Thanks for posting the thoughts, Lissa. I hope you don’t mind the differing opinions. And by all means, feel free to argue with me. Linda, posting from work again (bad me ).
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Post by Rob on Aug 11, 2004 2:12:18 GMT -5
Opinion: Buffy DID forgive Anya. When Anya proved her remorse and desire for redemption. Buffy proved her forgiveness by bringing Anya back to live with them for her own safety. Buffy’s willingness to make the hard decision to kill one of her loved ones if they put the world in danger (whether it is Anya or Willow or Angel) says more about her sense of duty than her ability to forgive. Her decisions to slay are very rarely about vengeance. Linda, I'm in agreement with everything you said, aside from the tone of this part. To me, things weren't so cut and dried in "Selfless." I don't think Buffy was motivated by vengeance or anger, but I DO think she jumped the gun a bit regarding Anya. She told Xander to please find a peaceful solution, then went right after the axe as he walked out. I don't entirely blame Buffy, as she probably thought Xander was thinking with his heart rather than his head, which was the exact same mistake she made with Angelus (hence her "kick his ass" reference, which she intentionally used to deflect Xander's argument). She's absolutely right: Xander won't allow Anya to be slain without exploring every other possible avenue. Perhaps she thought more people would die if she didn't act immediately...and there is come credence to that. Also in fairness to Buffy, she DID briefly ask Willow for thoughts, and got no indication any help was coming there. Either way, without Xander there to run interference (weak though it may have been), either Anya or Buffy could've easily been dead by the time D'Hoffryn showed up. He saved them from themselves, in a way. DID Buffy forgive Anya? Well...I guess. Eventually, though, there wasn't much to forgive. Anya couldn't bear the deaths on her conscience. In my opinion, considering all she had done for the Gang over the past two years, Anya more than earned the chance that Willow and Xander provided. Buffy wasn't willing to give anyone enough time to offer that chance. Anya deserved a little better. It's complicated, though. Everybody had a valid argument at the time, My biggest concern was Buffy's overall attitude. She was often proven right about things, no question...but not always. A little arrogance had crept in (which she admits in CWDP a couple of episodes later), and it proved costly later in the season.
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Post by Rob on Aug 11, 2004 2:18:15 GMT -5
I'm afraid to say that I agree. But, then what kind of guy should Buffy have if not Spike? A fantasy guy? A guy like the Immortal who she can use and redeem? Or a normal guy who has the ability to put it up with her? If such a guy excists Well, Xander is the obvious choice among "normal" guys. They know each other well enough to deal with their weaknesses without excessive drama. Overall, though, I think Buffy is still a work in progress. On the plus side, she's smart, funny, beautiful and generally loyal to those she cares about most. Oh, and she's also a hero. That's a pretty damn good starting point. I mean, really...we ALL have issues of some kind. She's finally getting a chance to work through them in a sane environment.
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Post by Lissa on Aug 11, 2004 4:29:33 GMT -5
Hi Lissa! I have a few disagreements following. I hope you don't mind. And as the S'cubies say: Assume the IMO. I disagree about Giles’ culpability here. Plot point: Angelus and Dru did *not* know about the re-ensouling ritual. When the opening of the Big Rock exposed Acathla, Dru says “He fills my head.” And her visions were obscured by it. The only reason they went to the Library was because they needed to retrieve Giles for his info-laden brain. The plan to distract Buffy was only to separate her from Giles. If they were trying to stop the ritual, they would have specifically killed Willow. So anyone around Giles would have been in danger and Kendra died because of her duty, not because of Giles or any of his decisions. I agree that Giles was more in favor of the ritual than against it because a) Jenny seemed to have wanted it and b) it would neutralize Angel as a threat. And so, both his heart and his intellect played a role in his preference. However, this decision would *not* have been easy for him. In fact, I believe that Jenny’s death would have caused him to want Angel to REMAIN a monster that Buffy could kill without ambivalence. And he warned both Buffy and Willow about the danger. But he also allowed the final decision to be the Slayer’s. In a way, I think restoring Angel's soul was the same sort of decision that led to his killing Ben. It was for the good of the world. Despite the cost to his own spirit. Regarding Giles’ sympathy to Angel: after losing the love of his life and being sadistically tortured, I’m always amazed that he let Angel back into his apartment only a year and a half later in Season 4. And he would only ever do such a thing for Buffy’s sake. Considering the possibility that Angel could lose his soul, there are so very many reasons for him not to do so. And I believe Giles DOES sympathize a bit with Spike. However, the sympathy gets tossed out the door as soon as he knows that Spike has feelings for Buffy. Later, though, as seen in Bargaining I when Buffy’s out of the picture, he trusts chipped Spike to watch his back in battle. But in season 7, it is probably his biggest worry (other than the approaching Watcherless Apocalypse) that Buffy’s going to travel down the same road with Spike as she did with Angel. Note that it’s when he knows she has such strong feelings for Spike that he takes steps (LMPTM) to make sure another Angelus-type disaster cannot happen. And it almost cost him his relationship with Buffy. Hi Linda. Of course I appreciate your opinion. (Which as usual is about S7 Giles and Angel(us): I agree with you on Dru Angelus wanting to distracted Buffy away from the group. I thought that they were to stop the ritual. But, that doesn't mean that the attempting on the reensouling Angelus was a good thing. It still brought Buffy out of focus. Reensouling Angel was against all common sense, IMO. So, in S7 he's worried that Buffy would go down the same road as with Angel. Then why did he leave in S6 and didn't warn her then? That's the whole point with Giles: he's not able to tell straight in Buffy's face what he thinks of her relationship with Spike or about her leadership. Giles never could get around his love for her to tell her the hard things. (Killing Ben or Dawn for example). Your point of allowing Angel in his home only shows that he's too much of a puppy around her.
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Post by Lissa on Aug 11, 2004 4:37:54 GMT -5
I'm not sure I understand about her being too young to realize what's happened. I know she knows about the attempted rape. She threatened him with fire in Beneath You. I don't know if she had quite forgiven him for it by the end of the series. It is so much harder to forgive someone who hurt your loved ones than someone who hurt you, yourself. I meant the way Buffy and Spike treated each other during S6. She knows about the AR, but I don't she knows the story behind it. Of course an AR can never be excused, but still . . . (It's a shot in the dark. Dawn knows Buffy pretty well.) Your absolutely right about forgiving someone who has hurt a loved one, and it especially holds true for Dawn. The girl has a lot of fire in her.
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Post by Lissa on Aug 11, 2004 4:57:21 GMT -5
Opinion: Xander REALLY doesn’t like or trust Angel OR Angelus. Aside from your reasons stated above, I think he would hold souled-Angel responsible for the act that lost him his soul in the first place. And therefore all of the Angelus-pain inflicted on the ones he loved would be almost as hard for him to forgive as it would be for Dawn to forgive Spike for the attempted rape. I believe that Xander would have been friends with souled, sane, de-chipped, de-triggered Spike if they had had more time. But there were still issues to be hashed out that didn’t get hashed out. See first paragraphs above re: Giles. Well, I was just referring to what he said in canon. Xander had already changed alot during S3 and S4. He does see the difference between an souled vampire and a nonsouled vampire. I agree with you that he doesn't trust Angel fully. (It reminds me always about his snarky remark to Angel when he had almost killed Buffy to save his own ass). Xander is also the only one who brings Spike's (Or Angel's) past before the scoobies as an argument. Anyway, S7 Xander is all about moving forward and not backwards. Forgiving is the first step. And the most important step for Xander was to forgive himself. Xander and AS5 Spike would have been great friends. No doubt.
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Post by Lissa on Aug 11, 2004 5:04:49 GMT -5
I don't think Buffy was motivated by vengeance or anger, but I DO think she jumped the gun a bit regarding Anya. She told Xander to please find a peaceful solution, then went right after the axe as he walked out. Precisely. Perhaps she thought more people would die if she didn't act immediately...and there is come credence to that. Agree, but wouldn't that have meant she should have killed Spike a long time ago?
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