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Post by Lissa on Aug 11, 2004 5:31:56 GMT -5
Well, Xander is the obvious choice among "normal" guys. They know each other well enough to deal with their weaknesses without excessive drama. Overall, though, I think Buffy is still a work in progress. On the plus side, she's smart, funny, beautiful and generally loyal to those she cares about most. Oh, and she's also a hero. That's a pretty damn good starting point. I mean, really...we ALL have issues of some kind. She's finally getting a chance to work through them in a sane environment. Well, Xander has been able to put it up with her for the past seven years and that says alot. And he has put it up with Anya for four years, which is a miracle of it's own Then again, he has messed up a lot with his past girlfriends. Xander/Buffy? Hmmm. Negative side:Only one. He's like a brother to her. Doesn't mean that couldn't or shouldn't be an obstacle in a possible BX, but still . . . Of course this is a personal feeling as someone who watches the show. Positive side:His love for her is pure and sincere in all possible ways, but the other way around remains a question. Buffy never showed any romantic feelings for him. But, what was the reason for that? Angel? Too afraid she might lose him when things would go wrong? She has never allowed herself a chance to love him in a romantic way. They trust each other and know each other. Everybody else trusts Xander and Dawn loves him. Could it work: oh yes. Do I like it? Xander is the only other guy, besides Angel, who doesn't give me the feeling of being a second choice. I also don't like the whole Immortal/Mr Sue thing. It's totally wrong. Spike was the fantasy guy afterall So, overall I don't mind Xander with Buffy. But, the biggest problem with B/X is of course: no B/S
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Post by Linda on Aug 11, 2004 5:32:46 GMT -5
Linda, I'm in agreement with everything you said, aside from the tone of this part. To me, things weren't so cut and dried in "Selfless." I don't think Buffy was motivated by vengeance or anger, but I DO think she jumped the gun a bit regarding Anya. She told Xander to please find a peaceful solution, then went right after the axe as he walked out. I don't entirely blame Buffy, as she probably thought Xander was thinking with his heart rather than his head, which was the exact same mistake she made with Angelus (hence her "kick his ass" reference, which she intentionally used to deflect Xander's argument). She's absolutely right: Xander won't allow Anya to be slain without exploring every other possible avenue. Perhaps she thought more people would die if she didn't act immediately...and there is come credence to that. Also in fairness to Buffy, she DID briefly ask Willow for thoughts, and got no indication any help was coming there. Either way, without Xander there to run interference (weak though it may have been), either Anya or Buffy could've easily been dead by the time D'Hoffryn showed up. He saved them from themselves, in a way. DID Buffy forgive Anya? Well...I guess. Eventually, though, there wasn't much to forgive. Anya couldn't bear the deaths on her conscience. In my opinion, considering all she had done for the Gang over the past two years, Anya more than earned the chance that Willow and Xander provided. Buffy wasn't willing to give anyone enough time to offer that chance. Anya deserved a little better. It's complicated, though. Everybody had a valid argument at the time, My biggest concern was Buffy's overall attitude. She was often proven right about things, no question...but not always. A little arrogance had crept in (which she admits in CWDP a couple of episodes later), and it proved costly later in the season. Hi Rob! Hmm. I think you're right that the tone of my post was too cut and dried regarding "Selfless" and Anya and Buffy. I kinda jumped the gun here. In my admittedly Spike-obsessed brain, I was already thinking about Buffy's heart, Xander, forgiving his beloved demon, foreshadowing Buffy's eventual forgiveness of Spike. But that doesn't necessarily mean that Buffy forgives Anya. However, my belief that Buffy forgave Anya is more based on what happens in the next episode than what we saw in Selfless. In regards to Buffy's decision to kill Anya: I believe that Buffy had been thinking about and dreading having to do that at least since Beneath You, perhaps even before. Since Anya had never, until Selfless done anything irrevocable, she stayed her hand. However, the dozen or so deaths at the fraternity was not something that Buffy had any reason to believe could be reversed. And that put Anya into the demon to be slain category. Up until that point, she had only been potentially evil, much like Spike, whom Buffy was willing to spare, (but not so much to succor) because of his soul, his past help and lack of recent evil acts (that she knew of, at least). I agree that Buffy showed a strong unwillingness to give Anya a chance. I also think that this had a lot to do with her projecting her issues with Spike (and maybe Angel) onto Anya. So Eeetah that Xander saved both Anya and Buffy in this episode with his interference. I also believe that he indirectly saved Spike as well. By giving Anya a chance, Xander made Buffy see that there *is* redemption possible, even for something as horrifying as mass-murder by spider. And once he's demonstrated that for Buffy, by the next episode, she invites Anya to live at the Summers house and Spike to live with Xander. (The latter of which I'm sure was not what Xander had intended...) Acknowledging Anya as a friend and under her protection, to me, implies that forgiveness is only a matter of time. (But yes, not cut and dried.) Spike's transgressions are more complex and not so easily forgiven. But I posted earlier that I thought that Season Seven did eventually clear the way for Buffy to be able to forgive Spike. Linda, this may or may not make sense this time of morning. Thanks for calling me on it, though...
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Post by Linda on Aug 11, 2004 6:16:45 GMT -5
Hi Linda. Of course I appreciate your opinion. (Which as usual is about S7 Giles and Angel(us): I agree with you on Dru Angelus wanting to distracted Buffy away from the group. I thought that they were to stop the ritual. But, that doesn't mean that the attempting on the reensouling Angelus was a good thing. It still brought Buffy out of focus. Reensouling Angel was against all common sense, IMO.Hi Lissa! Regarding the bolded part: Actually, it kinda made logical sense to me, despite the fact that it was the worst possible thing to happen to Buffy at the time. If Giles wasn't certain that Buffy could kill Angel -- if he thought she was either emotionally or physically unable to do so, then re-ensouling him would have saved her from emotional anguish or getting killed. Souled-Angel would have stopped himself from committing further evil, and so would be neutralized and save Buffy from having to kill him. Provided, of course, that they do it in time to stop the world-sucking ritual. I think it never occured to Season Six Giles that Buffy would enter into a relationship with Spike. I think he actually trusted Spike not to push for one, too. So he wouldn't have brought it up. (Yeah, the guy was blind. But not, I believe, ducking the issue.) Season Seven Giles actually told her point-blank (in First Date, I think) that re-starting her relationship with Spike would be wrong. And he does tell her specifically that speeches do not equal leadership in LMPTM. And also that Spike was dangerous to them all. He arranges to get rid of Spike behind her back -- which is way worse than arguing with her about it or forcing her to follow his orders. Giles is not perfect, but he does have a spine. And he calls Buffy out on her mistakes when he is aware of them. But he does acknowledge her as the decision-maker and backs her up (though there are painful, wrongheaded exceptions to this as noted above). And thank you for the clarifications to your earlier post as well. Linda, gotta be leaving now ... another dang 3 am post!
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Post by Lissa on Aug 11, 2004 7:14:25 GMT -5
Hi Lissa! Regarding the bolded part: Actually, it kinda made logical sense to me, despite the fact that it was the worst possible thing to happen to Buffy at the time. If Giles wasn't certain that Buffy could kill Angel -- if he thought she was either emotionally or physically unable to do so, then re-ensouling him would have saved her from emotional anguish or getting killed. Souled-Angel would have stopped himself from committing further evil, and so would be neutralized and save Buffy from having to kill him. Provided, of course, that they do it in time to stop the world-sucking ritual. I think it never occured to Season Six Giles that Buffy would enter into a relationship with Spike. I think he actually trusted Spike not to push for one, too. So he wouldn't have brought it up. (Yeah, the guy was blind. But not, I believe, ducking the issue.) Season Seven Giles actually told her point-blank (in First Date, I think) that re-starting her relationship with Spike would be wrong. And he does tell her specifically that speeches do not equal leadership in LMPTM. And also that Spike was dangerous to them all. He arranges to get rid of Spike behind her back -- which is way worse than arguing with her about it or forcing her to follow his orders. Giles is not perfect, but he does have a spine. And he calls Buffy out on her mistakes when he is aware of them. But he does acknowledge her as the decision-maker and backs her up (though there are painful, wrongheaded exceptions to this as noted above). Buffy was certainly not able to kill Angelus. That's absolutely true. Giles knew it and Xander knew it. But, agreeing to let an inexperienced young witch perform a very dangerous spell, which was an vengeance spell!!, to curse Angelus, is simply wrong. Everything could have gone wrong. And they got very lucky actually. So, even when it might have been necessary, I disagree with you. Giles spine is not big enough, especially not for the job he carries. But, I have to admit that S7 Giles showed that he had grown in that role. And Giles is or was somewhat soft, that's how his alter-ego the Ripper was born. S7 Giles is more of a combination of Ruppert and Ripper. And I believe it's post season 7 Giles who's making the decisions now. Yes, he's right about that speeches don't equal leadership, but that's something he should have taught her a long time ago. Spike wouldn't push for one? Spike didn't do anything else during S5. Giles more trusted that Buffy wouldn't . . . or not. It's hard to say with Giles. Or he trusted them both.
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Post by SpringSummers on Aug 11, 2004 8:06:27 GMT -5
Wow. Loads of interesting thoughts - I am responding hodge-podge: - Re-ensouling Angel: I agree re-ensouling Angel made no sense. Killing him made sense. That was kind of the point: Buffy was madly-in-love, blindly in love, and wasn't thinking with her brain.
- Buffy & Xander as a couple: Just not right, especially for Xander. There's the incestuous feel, but they aren't really bro & sis, so I could get over that. But I get the strong feeling by the end of Season 7 that Xander is simply over his Buffy-thing - and good for him. It was an infatuation that began in HS, and it's over. He's a different person, and he no longer sees her as this "paragon of perfection hero." So he's a different person, and she's a different person literally, and in his eyes. Xander needs to move on, and be with someone who sees him for the remarkable person he is - without the forever hanging around "second-best and not entirely appreciated" history he had with Buffy. And I just don't think he's attracted to Buffy "in that way" anymore.
- Killing Anya: Buffy was definitely applying a double-standard and Xander was right to call her on it. I think Buffy saw an opportunity to try to do the right thing in an unequivocal way, maybe feeling she could set right all she did wrong with Angel and Spike. The ep was called Selfless not just to refer to Anya's lack of self without Xander and/or the Vengeance Demon gig to define her, but to refer to Buffy's lack of self without Angel and/or her Slayer gig to define her.
- Giles: Giles isn't particularly surprised about Buffy sleeping with Spike. So even if he didn't consciously think it through, I do believe he was aware of the tensions and chemistry between the two (remember Something Blue? "If those two don't kill each other, I might lend a hand?" He made that prophetic statement BEFORE any spell brought Buffy & Spike together.) But he leaves in Season 6 because he has to leave and let things play out however they might. He needs to do it not just for Buffy, but for himself. I thought he made the best decision and didn't begrudge him his choice to leave.
- Giles in Season 7: Giles is having a hard time separating his fatherly role and feelings for Buffy, from his Watcher role, from what seems to be his new role as Buffy's lieutenant more than her mentor. But Buffy sets him straight after the Spike-Wood-thing. It's kind of like what we'll see later in AtS Season 5, with Spike finally unequivocally winning a fight against parental figure, Angel. Part of growing up is making a break with the parent, defining yourself apart from them, etc.
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Post by Lissa on Aug 11, 2004 9:51:46 GMT -5
Wow. Loads of interesting thoughts - I am responding hodge-podge: [/li][li] Re-ensouling Angel: I agree re-ensouling Angel made no sense. Killing him made sense. That was kind of the point: Buffy was madly-in-love, blindly in love, and wasn't thinking with her brain. [/li][li] Buffy & Xander as a couple: Just not right, especially for Xander. There's the incestuous feel, but they aren't really bro & sis, so I could get over that. But I get the strong feeling by the end of Season 7 that Xander is simply over his Buffy-thing - and good for him. It was an infatuation that began in HS, and it's over. He's a different person, and he no longer sees her as this "paragon of perfection hero." So he's a different person, and she's a different person literally, and in his eyes. Xander needs to move on, and be with someone who sees him for the remarkable person he is - without the forever hanging around "second-best and not entirely appreciated" history he had with Buffy. And I just don't think he's attracted to Buffy "in that way" anymore. [/li][li] Killing Anya: Buffy was definitely applying a double-standard and Xander was right to call her on it. I think Buffy saw an opportunity to try to do the right think in an unequivocal way, maybe feeling she could set right all she did wrong with Angel and Spike. The ep was called Selfless not just to refer to Anya's lack of self without Xander and/or the Vengeance Demon gig to define her, but to refer to Buffy's lack of self without Angel and/or her Slayer gig to define her. [/li][li] Giles: Giles isn't particularly surprised about Buffy sleeping with Spike. So even if he didn't consciously think it through, I do believe he was aware of the tensions and chemistry between the two (remember Something Blue? "If those two don't kill each other, I might lend a hand?" He made that prophetic statement BEFORE any spell brought Buffy & Spike together.) But he leaves in Season 6 because he has to leave and let things play out however they might. He needs to do it not just for Buffy, but for himself. I thought he made the best decision and didn't begrudge him his choice to leave. [/li][li] Giles in Season 7: Giles is having a hard time separating his fatherly role and feelings for Buffy, from his Watcher role, from what seems to be his new role as Buffy's lieutenant more than her mentor. But Buffy sets him straight after the Spike-Wood-thing. It's kind of like what we'll see later in AtS Season 5, with Spike finally unequivocally winning a fight against parental figure, Angel. Part of growing up is making a break with the parent, defining yourself apart from them, etc. [/quote] Well, I agree with you mostly. Giles most definitely made the right dicision to make leave in season 6 for himself. But, then he has skipped the right to judge Buffy like he did with the Spike Wood thing. Interesting how you compare it with Angel. Very good. About Xander/Buffy I got the same feeling too. But, I went out from the assumption they see something more than just deep friendship. Especially now he doesn't see her as the "paragon of perfection hero." (Which I think he has left already some time ago, by the way.) But, of course you're right he needs someone who sees how wonderful he is. And not in a Anya kind of way.
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Post by fredspuffed on Aug 13, 2004 3:52:13 GMT -5
Qouted from Lissa :Xander is the only other guy, besides Angel, who doesn't give me the feeling of being a second choice. I also don't like the whole Immortal/Mr Sue thing. It's totally wrong. Spike was the fantasy guy afterall So, overall I don't mind Xander with Buffy. But, the biggest problem with B/X is of course: no B/S [/quote] Buffy should go out with Batman/bruce wayne . I like Batman maybe its the black costume and the bat thing(i'm weird). He's a regular guy and quite a bit older and he into that moody and broody(shes probabley grown past that we need someone snarky) stuff buffy likes-hes worldly ( upon further thought perhaps hes more suited for angel, they seem to have alot in common) but than agian he's kinda like riley would not work. maybe she could go out with spiderman/peter parker mmmm superman I know jay (from Jay and silent bob) and if she tires of his antics she could always go out with bob...... but why settle for hamburger when you could have steak =spike
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Post by SpringSummers on Aug 13, 2004 20:08:56 GMT -5
Qouted from Lissa :Xander is the only other guy, besides Angel, who doesn't give me the feeling of being a second choice. I also don't like the whole Immortal/Mr Sue thing. It's totally wrong. Spike was the fantasy guy afterall So, overall I don't mind Xander with Buffy. But, the biggest problem with B/X is of course: no B/S Buffy should go out with Batman/bruce wayne . I like Batman maybe its the black costume and the bat thing(i'm weird). He's a regular guy and quite a bit older and he into that moody and broody(shes probabley grown past that we need someone snarky) stuff buffy likes-hes worldly ( upon further thought perhaps hes more suited for angel, they seem to have alot in common) but than agian he's kinda like riley would not work. maybe she could go out with spiderman/peter parker mmmm superman I know jay (from Jay and silent bob) and if she tires of his antics she could always go out with bob...... but why settle for hamburger when you could have steak =spike [/quote] Angel was Buffy's "Batman" - you know, with the Angel-mobile, and dark broody hero thing. So she's been there, done that. I can't think of a superhero I would pair Buffy with. Let's see - Aquaman? Too fishy? The Green Hornet maybe?
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Post by fredspuffed on Aug 14, 2004 10:15:23 GMT -5
Buffy should go out with Batman/bruce wayne . I like Batman maybe its the black costume and the bat thing(i'm weird). He's a regular guy and quite a bit older and he into that moody and broody(shes probabley grown past that we need someone snarky) stuff buffy likes-hes worldly ( upon further thought perhaps hes more suited for angel, they seem to have alot in common) but than agian he's kinda like riley would not work. maybe she could go out with spiderman/peter parker mmmm superman I know jay (from Jay and silent bob) and if she tires of his antics she could always go out with bob...... but why settle for hamburger when you could have steak =spike Angel was Buffy's "Batman" - you know, with the Angel-mobile, and dark broody hero thing. So she's been there, done that. I can't think of a superhero I would pair Buffy with. Let's see - Aquaman? Too fishy? The Green Hornet maybe? [/quote] Quoted from SpringSummers ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Maybe Scott Summer/Cyclops from X-men. He reminded me of Riley. He's a boy scout, they have the same last name so she wouldn't have to change her name if he married him. He has powers and fights evil. Logan/Wolverine from X-men. He's older, we don't know how long, however. He's a little Spike, with his witty ways and attitude. Has powers and fights evil and is a mighty good treat. Bobby Drake/Ice Man from X-men. He is loyal, and cute like a puppy dog. Fights evil and has icey/snow powers. Indian Jones, he's an avenger, don't take cr**. He's an older guy and we know Buffy likes older guys. But he's a little like Giles. It would kind of dating Giles which is creepy. But on the up side he has all that experience. Van Helsing, fights evil monsters like her. He's a little hottie. Yes, your right she's been out with her version of Batman/Angel, broody/dark/bloady coat/cape man. Wolverine is the closest she could come to Spike. But after much thought you could not find anyone as good as she Spike. He's just the good.
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Post by Lissa on Aug 15, 2004 16:21:50 GMT -5
Angel was Buffy's "Batman" - you know, with the Angel-mobile, and dark broody hero thing. So she's been there, done that. I can't think of a superhero I would pair Buffy with. Let's see - Aquaman? Too fishy? The Green Hornet maybe? Quoted from SpringSummers ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Maybe Scott Summer/Cyclops from X-men. He reminded me of Riley. He's a boy scout, they have the same last name so she wouldn't have to change her name if he married him. He has powers and fights evil. Logan/Wolverine from X-men. He's older, we don't know how long, however. He's a little Spike, with his witty ways and attitude. Has powers and fights evil and is a mighty good treat. Bobby Drake/Ice Man from X-men. He is loyal, and cute like a puppy dog. Fights evil and has icey/snow powers. Indian Jones, he's an avenger, don't take cr**. He's an older guy and we know Buffy likes older guys. But he's a little like Giles. It would kind of dating Giles which is creepy. But on the up side he has all that experience. Van Helsing, fights evil monsters like her. He's a little hottie. Yes, your right she's been out with her version of Batman/Angel, broody/dark/bloady coat/cape man. Wolverine is the closest she could come to Spike. But after much thought you could not find anyone as good as she Spike. He's just the good.[/quote] Angel is modeled after Batman. The first guy Spike reminded me off is Methos. Methos is Spike, but only five thousand years older and a little smarter. But, for the rest they are almost identical. But, I personally think a guy for Buffy shouldn't be like either Angel, Riley or Spike. Bobby looks too much like Xander, but then with icy-powers. I think Wolverine would be great, but in the end won't work. But, sure as hell and an interesting couple
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Post by Lissa on Aug 15, 2004 17:03:49 GMT -5
Angel was Buffy's "Batman" - you know, with the Angel-mobile, and dark broody hero thing. So she's been there, done that. I can't think of a superhero I would pair Buffy with. Let's see - Aquaman? Too fishy? The Green Hornet maybe? Quoted from SpringSummers ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Maybe Scott Summer/Cyclops from X-men. He reminded me of Riley. He's a boy scout, they have the same last name so she wouldn't have to change her name if he married him. He has powers and fights evil. Logan/Wolverine from X-men. He's older, we don't know how long, however. He's a little Spike, with his witty ways and attitude. Has powers and fights evil and is a mighty good treat. Bobby Drake/Ice Man from X-men. He is loyal, and cute like a puppy dog. Fights evil and has icey/snow powers. Indian Jones, he's an avenger, don't take cr**. He's an older guy and we know Buffy likes older guys. But he's a little like Giles. It would kind of dating Giles which is creepy. But on the up side he has all that experience. Van Helsing, fights evil monsters like her. He's a little hottie. Yes, your right she's been out with her version of Batman/Angel, broody/dark/bloady coat/cape man. Wolverine is the closest she could come to Spike. But after much thought you could not find anyone as good as she Spike. He's just the good.[/quote] To be honest, I hope neither of above. S7 was the season of the Sueing. Willow got her Mary Sue Kennedy. Faith her Mr. Sue. Buffy got Spike. IT's about time it becomes more realistic again. Normal. A normal boyfriend for Buffy.
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Post by LadyDi on Aug 17, 2004 18:01:07 GMT -5
I agree with you that Buffy loved Spike at the end of Chosen and that Spike still loves Buffy (and likely, Buffy still loves Spike) at the end of AtS. But that's not all it was about. Spike loved Buffy, but he literally didn't sail on that ship. I think the implication is that despite his love for her, he knows he also needs time to "bake," and who knows what he will want when he's a "fully baked cookie." I was glad because Spike was very, very badly in need of time to define himself away from women. And once he does, I'm thinking he won't want to go back to be with Buffy. In many ways, she was Spike's "Angel." Buffy shouldn't go back to the one she idealized and who was almost a parental figure to her, and neither should Spike.I hope we do see some movies or a spin-off that shows us growth and independence for Spike. In some ways, perhaps. OTOH, she was much better for him than Angel ever was for her. Plus, the darkness we saw in s6 is behind her now. She would no longer have any reason or inclination to deny his equality. I don't think Spike ever idealized Buffy to the extent she idealized Angel. He respected her strength and abilities as the Slayer, and loved her, but he was always calling her out on something. Spike understood Buffy, challenged her, and did his best to keep her honest (a full-time gig). She, in turn, made him want to be a better man - if only to prove it was possible. Spike definitely needed the growth time in AtS s5, but he stayed in L.A. 'cuz he was needed there, not 'cuz he didn't want to be w/Buffy. I don't see a reunion w/Buffy as a step backwards. She is no longer the Buffy who treated him so badly, nor will she ever be in the future.
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Post by Cal on Aug 17, 2004 19:38:05 GMT -5
In some ways, perhaps. OTOH, she was much better for him than Angel ever was for her. Plus, the darkness we saw in s6 is behind her now. She would no longer have any reason or inclination to deny his equality. I don't think Spike ever idealized Buffy to the extent she idealized Angel. He respected her strength and abilities as the Slayer, and loved her, but he was always calling her out on something. Spike understood Buffy, challenged her, and did his best to keep her honest (a full-time gig). She, in turn, made him want to be a better man - if only to prove it was possible. Spike definitely needed the growth time in AtS s5, but he stayed in L.A. 'cuz he was needed there, not 'cuz he didn't want to be w/Buffy. I don't see a reunion w/Buffy as a step backwards. She is no longer the Buffy who treated him so badly, nor will she ever be in the future. ITA, LadyDi! Well said.
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Post by SpringSummers on Aug 18, 2004 7:15:44 GMT -5
In some ways, perhaps. OTOH, she was much better for him than Angel ever was for her. Plus, the darkness we saw in s6 is behind her now. She would no longer have any reason or inclination to deny his equality. I don't think Spike ever idealized Buffy to the extent she idealized Angel. He respected her strength and abilities as the Slayer, and loved her, but he was always calling her out on something. Spike understood Buffy, challenged her, and did his best to keep her honest (a full-time gig). She, in turn, made him want to be a better man - if only to prove it was possible. Spike definitely needed the growth time in AtS s5, but he stayed in L.A. 'cuz he was needed there, not 'cuz he didn't want to be w/Buffy. I don't see a reunion w/Buffy as a step backwards. She is no longer the Buffy who treated him so badly, nor will she ever be in the future. I agree with almost all you say here - the analogy with Angel is definitely not a 100% one, for exactly the reasons you mention. I don't agree that Spike stayed in LA because he "was needed there" not because he "didn't want to be with Buffy." I thought it was both. I believed him when he told Harmony that he didn't feel right about going to see Buffy. And I think that underneath it all, that feeling was about recognizing the need to be away from her and to grow and define himself apart from her. And once he's truly done that, once they've both "finished baking" - I don't know. There's a sense in which they'll both be different people and many of the things that attracted them so very strongly to one another will be history. And . . . it doesn't seem impossible, but it just doesn't seem all that likely to me, that fully-baked cookies would be inclined or attracted to the idea of going back to the one from before. I think Spike was already showing a decrease in that inclination, in AtS Season 5.
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Post by LadyDi on Aug 18, 2004 11:31:31 GMT -5
I agree with almost all you say here - the analogy with Angel is definitely not a 100% one, for exactly the reasons you mention. I don't agree that Spike stayed in LA because he "was needed there" not because he "didn't want to be with Buffy." I thought it was both. I believed him when he told Harmony that he didn't feel right about going to see Buffy. And I think that underneath it all, that feeling was about recognizing the need to be away from her and to grow and define himself apart from her. And once he's truly done that, once they've both "finished baking" - I don't know. There's a sense in which they'll both be different people and many of the things that attracted them so very strongly to one another will be history. And . . . it doesn't seem impossible, but it just doesn't seem all that likely to me, that fully-baked cookies would be inclined or attracted to the idea of going back to the one from before. I think Spike was already showing a decrease in that inclination, in AtS Season 5. I don't actually remember Spike telling Harmony he didn't feel right about going to see Buffy. I remember him telling her he wanted to, but he also wanted his sacrifice to have meaning. I haven't watched Harm's Way since it aired, so I'm a little fuzzy. Joss said something in a post- Chosen interview about the cookie dough speech representing freedom. Buffy has choices now, and that's great, but we're not even sure she knows Spike is once again part of that. We may have finally come to a fundamental difference of opinion. What you consider a step backwards, I consider a second chance. I saw AtS s5 partly as a series of excuses to keep Spike in L.A.. The amulet-induced limbo, the Shanshu competition w/Angel, losing Fred to Illyria, the big fight. I also think the fundamental things attracting Buffy and Spike are not part of the changes they're going thru. Spike, for one, tends to stay very much the same no matter how many changes he undergoes. Doug Petrie says as much in his commentary on Fool For Love. Would Buffy admire Spike's strength of character any less? I very much doubt it. Their essentials are in place, and it would take something pretty radical to alter that. BTW - You may be High Priestess, but we all worship at the same alter.
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