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Post by SpringSummers on Aug 18, 2004 13:18:19 GMT -5
I don't actually remember Spike telling Harmony he didn't feel right about going to see Buffy. I remember him telling her he wanted to, but he also wanted his sacrifice to have meaning. I haven't watched Harm's Way since it aired, so I'm a little fuzzy. Joss said something in a post- Chosen interview about the cookie dough speech representing freedom. Buffy has choices now, and that's great, but we're not even sure she knows Spike is once again part of that. We may have finally come to a fundamental difference of opinion. What you consider a step backwards, I consider a second chance. I saw AtS s5 partly as a series of excuses to keep Spike in L.A.. The amulet-induced limbo, the Shanshu competition w/Angel, losing Fred to Illyria, the big fight. I also think the fundamental things attracting Buffy and Spike are not part of the changes they're going thru. Spike, for one, tends to stay very much the same no matter how many changes he undergoes. Doug Petrie says as much in his commentary on Fool For Love. Would Buffy admire Spike's strength of character any less? I very much doubt it. Their essentials are in place, and it would take something pretty radical to alter that. BTW - You may be High Priestess, but we all worship at the same alter. I am not High Priestess of anything, but you bet I'm at that altar. I love my Buffy & Spike. They are great together; I could watch them dance and dance and dance. You are right about Spike saying something about his sacrifice not having meaning to Harmony - like you, I am fuzzy - but whatever the reason, it adds up to this, for me: He decided not to do it because he didn't feel right about it. He could have gone to see Buffy, but he chose not to go. On Spike remaining the same: You know, I suppose few would agree with this, but everyone in the whole show (including Angel when he loses his soul) always remains fundamentally the same. That's one of the show's tenets, I think - that there is a basic you and you always go back to who you are. At the same time, the show is about growth and change, and it shows us that though the foundation may remain the same, huge and significant changes can and will and must and should be made to the house. Buffy's main reasons for being attracted to Angel, and his for being attracted to her, kept growing less and less and less as they both grew and changed. Yes, it had to do with some of the unchanging fundamentals about each other, but it also was heavily about the changeable. Spike & Buffy - whew. The chemistry was major, the attraction was was bigger than both of them, just unstoppable. And it had to do with some of the fundamentals of their character, but also had heavy elements of the "here and now," of things that have now changed. Spike had a huge need to get back in touch with, and acknowledge, and come to love that goodness in himself that Buffy represented and he'd disdained for so long, there were major mommy issues involved, etc. Buffy had comparable things going on, that had a lot to do with her attraction to Spike. When all of that is gone, will the fundamentals be enough? I am guessing that you feel certain they would be, while I am not so certain.
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Post by LadyDi on Aug 18, 2004 22:12:42 GMT -5
I am not High Priestess of anything, but you bet I'm at that altar. I love my Buffy & Spike. They are great together; I could watch them dance and dance and dance. You are right about Spike saying something about his sacrifice not having meaning to Harmony - like you, I am fuzzy - but whatever the reason, it adds up to this, for me: He decided not to do it because he didn't feel right about it. He could have gone to see Buffy, but he chose not to go. On Spike remaining the same: You know, I suppose few would agree with this, but everyone in the whole show (including Angel when he loses his soul) always remains fundamentally the same. That's one of the show's tenets, I think - that there is a basic you and you always go back to who you are. At the same time, the show is about growth and change, and it shows us that though the foundation may remain the same, huge and significant changes can and will and must and should be made to the house. Buffy's main reasons for being attracted to Angel, and his for being attracted to her, kept growing less and less and less as they both grew and changed. Yes, it had to do with some of the unchanging fundamentals about each other, but it also was heavily about the changeable. Spike & Buffy - whew. The chemistry was major, the attraction was was bigger than both of them, just unstoppable. And it had to do with some of the fundamentals of their character, but also had heavy elements of the "here and now," of things that have now changed. Spike had a huge need to get back in touch with, and acknowledge, and come to love that goodness in himself that Buffy represented and he'd disdained for so long, there were major mommy issues involved, etc. Buffy had comparable things going on, that had a lot to do with her attraction to Spike. When all of that is gone, will the fundamentals be enough? I am guessing that you feel certain they would be, while I am not so certain. Honestly, I'm not certain about much of anything. You're very right about Buffy and Angel's attraction growing less and less as time passed, but Buffy and Spike's relationship was different enough that I could see a different outcome. IMO, growth and change made two people who were very wrong for each other right. Of course, with AtS xld and SMG no longer a regular part of the Jossverse things get more complicated. I can see where a clean break could be better than draggling along like w/Angel, but it feels very arbitrary to me. Buffy's gotta find out about Spike's return eventually. I was on my way. Had a boat ticket and all. Then I put a little thinking into it. A man can't go out in a bloody blaze of glory, savin' the world, and then show up 3 months later, tumbling off a cruise ship in the south of France. I mean, I'd love to, don't get me wrong, but, uh, it's hard to top an exit like that.
I thought I remembered something in this speech about saying another good-bye (to Buffy). Anyway, there's another parallel w/Dru here. He found her, but she left him again. I think part of Spike's reluctance to go may be fear of rejection. He also says he knows Buffy would be happy to see him, but I think he's afraid of what would come once her initial enthusiasm faded.
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Post by Onjel on Aug 20, 2004 20:45:04 GMT -5
Maybe it's just me, but I can't help thinking that Buffy and Angel represented that high school first love, which so often fades when people graduate and go their separate ways. Spike/Buffy, however, evolved into a more mature relationship in so many ways. Each saw and knew intimately, the flaws of the other and still, they were basically friends (in an admittedly strange way) then lovers. My ideal has always been to be friends first and then discover passion between two people. That is how I see Buffy and Spike. I don't think she would be disappointed to see him alive, at all. On the other hand, she could have changed so much leading the awakened slayers and playing in Europe, that they would have nothing in common anymore. I choose to imagine it otherwise, however.
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Post by LadyDi on Aug 22, 2004 11:59:39 GMT -5
Maybe it's just me, but I can't help thinking that Buffy and Angel represented that high school first love, which so often fades when people graduate and go their separate ways. Spike/Buffy, however, evolved into a more mature relationship in so many ways. Each saw and knew intimately, the flaws of the other and still, they were basically friends (in an admittedly strange way) then lovers. My ideal has always been to be friends first and then discover passion between two people. That is how I see Buffy and Spike. I don't think she would be disappointed to see him alive, at all. On the other hand, she could have changed so much leading the awakened slayers and playing in Europe, that they would have nothing in common anymore. I choose to imagine it otherwise, however. Right there with ya, Scooter. I doubt she would change so radically as to have nothing in common w/Spike. In fact, having traveled around Europe, she now has even more in common w/him. Granted she hasn't left a trail of corpses behind her, but now she's been to some of the same places.
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Post by Lynn on Apr 13, 2005 15:23:13 GMT -5
Can I weigh in on the does Spike go on loving Buffy after Chosen discussion? Sometimes the "heart has its reasons that reason knows nothing of" and I strongly feel that applies here. It may be his mother issues or not, it may be a good thing for him or not, but IMO he will always feel that connection with her and she will always be "the one." The writing and the acting make this very real to me.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 13, 2005 19:06:20 GMT -5
Can I weigh in on the does Spike go on loving Buffy after Chosen discussion? Sometimes the "heart has its reasons that reason knows nothing of" and I strongly feel that applies here. It may be his mother issues or not, it may be a good thing for him or not, but IMO he will always feel that connection with her and she will always be "the one." The writing and the acting make this very real to me. Hi, Lynn! Weigh in on anything on the Spikecentricity board, anytime. I do agree that Spike & Buffy have the kind of connection that means they will . . . live in each other's hearts, is the way I would put it . . . for as long as they live. This is totally about my personal take on life: If Spike tells himself "Buffy is forever the one for me and no one can ever mean more to me," etc., then that's how it will be for him. If he tells himself, "Buffy will always be special to me, but you never know what is ahead, I will be open-hearted to the possibilities," then I think he would have a high probability of finding equally, or even more fulfilling, love. There's a world of possibilities out there, for all of us. And unless you are in an actively committed relationship, personally, I think "being open to the possibilities" is the way to go. Including finding your way back to "openheartedness" after major loss. Spike could find himself back with Buffy or maybe he wouldn't, but his happiness and fullfillment would never depend on that. It would depend on his willingness to open his heart and to love. OK. You got me on my soapbox. I will step down now. And I mean it about adding your thoughts to any of the ep threads, anytime!
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Post by Michelle on Apr 14, 2005 10:58:04 GMT -5
I agreed with your viewpoint wholeheartedly until I saw "The Girl In Question." When Spike discovers Buffy is dating the Immortal, he says quite plainly: it's over. He still loves her, I'm sure, but does he imagine a relationship with her again? Very doubtful.
I was (and still am) heavily invested in the Spike/Buffy dynamic. And Spike's realization that any chance with Buffy has ceased to exist is one of the reasons I couldn't enjoy TGIQ. I think that ep was intended to be farce, but I spent the entire episode basically mourning the end of Spuffy.
I know, how pathetic, right? I try to be as pragmatic as Spring is, and see that it's *good* for Spike & Buffy to move on, but it's a real struggle.
But I thank you Spring, for being my role model!
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 14, 2005 12:01:45 GMT -5
I agreed with your viewpoint wholeheartedly until I saw "The Girl In Question." When Spike discovers Buffy is dating the Immortal, he says quite plainly: it's over. He still loves her, I'm sure, but does he imagine a relationship with her again? Very doubtful. I was (and still am) heavily invested in the Spike/Buffy dynamic. And Spike's realization that any chance with Buffy has ceased to exist is one of the reasons I couldn't enjoy TGIQ. I think that ep was intended to be farce, but I spent the entire episode basically mourning the end of Spuffy. I know, how pathetic, right? I try to be as pragmatic as Spring is, and see that it's *good* for Spike & Buffy to move on, but it's a real struggle. But I thank you Spring, for being my role model! Thanks for the input, Fotada. If you've read my analyses, you know I was widowed at a young age (in my 20s). So really, it's not particularly . . . pragmatic . . . it's just from my own experience. If I bought into the "there's only ONE person for you who is THE ONE and always will be" philosophy, I'd have had to give up on love with 75% of my life left to live. Which is not to say I didn't feel like that for awhile - it's normal. But that kind of philosophy, even if your former love is still alive, is self-defeating. "If I can't have so-and-so, I will never be truly happy." "I'll never know love as wonderful as that again." Well, if you believe it, it definitely will be true. I do think that it's true to say "I'll never know love like that again," because each experience is unique. But that's different than saying, "It'lll never be as good, as fullfilling, as joyous and passionate again." Sure it can be. If you let it. If you want it. I know, I know, people have a lot of different opinions on this, so I'm just expressing this as my opinion, not gospel. But I just don't believe it is true that people have to have only one true love in life. They might, they might not. It isn't determined by fate; it's determined by each individual, what they choose to believe, and what they choose to pursue. I love my BtVS characters, especially Spike & Buffy. So what I would want for them is to see them as fulfilled and happy people who know how to love and be loved and be open to love. Maybe this would eventually mean they would end up together - maybe not. I kinda tend toward "not" because of the step-backward it would mean, most especially for Spike. He's in dire need of defining himself without Buffy.
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Post by Lynn on Apr 14, 2005 15:05:59 GMT -5
"I have lived a very long time, done things...." to quote someone, and I do agree its possible to love more than one person deeply, though there may be someone "in your heart" permanently because of the connection being so powerful. (This is the very first time I have taken an interest in someone else's love affair, being no shipper, but this Spike/Buffy story is just amazing)
And wow what a very interesting group of writers on this message board.
My take: I ignore TGIQ as a farce, and like all great fictional love stories this one is a tragedy. The beginning is so subtle: I just noticed in Season 4, at the end of one of the eps, someone says something like "And Buffy could have been killed!" and Spike does two thumbs up with a big grin. But the last shot is of Buffy with a "oh will you be quiet" look that says so much about the underground relationship between them that no one else picks up on. They understand each other very well, much of it unconsciously.
And not to nag, because I know you are busy and not willing just to rush through it, but Spring? Season 6?
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Post by Lynn on Apr 14, 2005 15:08:25 GMT -5
"I have lived a very long time, done things...." to quote someone, and I do agree its possible to love more than one person deeply, though there may be someone "in your heart" permanently because of the connection being so powerful. (This is the very first time I have taken an interest in someone else's love affair, being no shipper, but this Spike/Buffy story is just amazing)
And wow what a very interesting group of writers on this message board.
My take: I ignore TGIQ as a farce, and like all great fictional love stories this one is a tragedy. The beginning is so subtle: I just noticed in Season 4, at the end of one of the eps, someone says something like "And Buffy could have been killed!" and Spike does two thumbs up with a big grin. But the last shot is of Buffy with a "oh will you be quiet" look that says so much about the underground relationship between them that no one else picks up on. They understand each other very well, much of it unconsciously.
And not to nag, because I know you are busy and not willing just to rush through it, but Spring? Season 6?
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Post by Kerrie on Apr 14, 2005 17:14:03 GMT -5
"I have lived a very long time, done things...." to quote someone, and I do agree its possible to love more than one person deeply, though there may be someone "in your heart" permanently because of the connection being so powerful. (This is the very first time I have taken an interest in someone else's love affair, being no shipper, but this Spike/Buffy story is just amazing) And wow what a very interesting group of writers on this message board. My take: I ignore TGIQ as a farce, and like all great fictional love stories this one is a tragedy. The beginning is so subtle: I just noticed in Season 4, at the end of one of the eps, someone says something like "And Buffy could have been killed!" and Spike does two thumbs up with a big grin. But the last shot is of Buffy with a "oh will you be quiet" look that says so much about the underground relationship between them that no one else picks up on. They understand each other very well, much of it unconsciously. And not to nag, because I know you are busy and not willing just to rush through it, but Spring? Season 6? I agree with Spring on this issue. To be honest much of my anticipated interest in season 7 was focused on how well Spike and Buffy would love each other once Spike had a soul. For me, season 6 was so much about the "here and now" for both of them that I found it difficult to imagine how it would progress once Spike got his soul. My hopes for resolution of this issue were not well met in season 7: Spike and Buffy still "loved" each other but it was not resolved (i.e. out in the open, allowed to grow and die a natural death like I expected). Don't get me wrong: I am very Spuffy, but ensouled Spike and Buffy does not equal Spuffy. If, as Spring suggests, part of their attraction lies in the fact that Spike is Buffy's dark side then ensouled Spike loses that attraction. This is a question we will never know the answer to, but I don't think Spike and Buffy were soul mates (i.e. the one and only for each other). I don't think that because they were both cookie dough at the peak of their passion and because I just don't believe in one true love. As my mother used to say if each person has only one true love what do you do if your "one" is on the other side of the world and you never meet them. It just denies the hard work that goes into relationships. (I am sorry if I have repeated anyone in my rant - I have not properly caught up.) On the other issue of Spring working faster on season 6, can I just put in my tuppence and say that I have my own selfish reasons for Spring not starting it just yet: I haven't caught up. Luckily for me the kids have started school holidays and so I will theoretically have more time on-line in the morning instead of rushing off to get them to kindergarten and school. PS I should point out that when it comes to being pragmatic in love I probably beat Spring: I am not convinced that Romeo and Juliet was the greatest love story ever told. To me it seemed like lust + circumstances + romanticism. A bit like Angel and Buffy really. Not like Buffy and Spike because that relationship lacked romanticism, but I suppose it could have developed.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 14, 2005 20:44:24 GMT -5
"I have lived a very long time, done things...." to quote someone, and I do agree its possible to love more than one person deeply, though there may be someone "in your heart" permanently because of the connection being so powerful. (This is the very first time I have taken an interest in someone else's love affair, being no shipper, but this Spike/Buffy story is just amazing) And wow what a very interesting group of writers on this message board. My take: I ignore TGIQ as a farce, and like all great fictional love stories this one is a tragedy. The beginning is so subtle: I just noticed in Season 4, at the end of one of the eps, someone says something like "And Buffy could have been killed!" and Spike does two thumbs up with a big grin. But the last shot is of Buffy with a "oh will you be quiet" look that says so much about the underground relationship between them that no one else picks up on. They understand each other very well, much of it unconsciously. And not to nag, because I know you are busy and not willing just to rush through it, but Spring? Season 6? Definitely - Spike & Buffy are the most amazing love story I've ever seen. And I must agree with you about TGIQ - I think it was meant as a "lighthearted look" but as the "last glimpse" we might ever get of Spike & Buffy - no way it meant anything. It didn't change anything; it provided no new useful info. Season 6? You're not nagging - you're encouraging! Usually, I do these on weekends. And I've had very busy weekends the last few. I did rewatch Bargaining I - one time, and did a quick perusal of the script. I THINK I can do it this weekend.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 14, 2005 20:57:11 GMT -5
I agree with Spring on this issue. To be honest much of my anticipated interest in season 7 was focused on how well Spike and Buffy would love each other once Spike had a soul. For me, season 6 was so much about the "here and now" for both of them that I found it difficult to imagine how it would progress once Spike got his soul. My hopes for resolution of this issue were not well met in season 7: Spike and Buffy still "loved" each other but it was not resolved (i.e. out in the open, allowed to grow and die a natural death like I expected). Don't get me wrong: I am very Spuffy, but ensouled Spike and Buffy does not equal Spuffy. If, as Spring suggests, part of their attraction lies in the fact that Spike is Buffy's dark side then ensouled Spike loses that attraction. This is a question we will never know the answer to, but I don't think Spike and Buffy were soul mates (i.e. the one and only for each other). I don't think that because they were both cookie dough at the peak of their passion and because I just don't believe in one true love. As my mother used to say if each person has only one true love what do you do if your "one" is on the other side of the world and you never meet them. It just denies the hard work that goes into relationships. (I am sorry if I have repeated anyone in my rant - I have not properly caught up.) On the other issue of Spring working faster on season 6, can I just put in my tuppence and say that I have my own selfish reasons for Spring not starting it just yet: I haven't caught up. Luckily for me the kids have started school holidays and so I will theoretically have more time on-line in the morning instead of rushing off to get them to kindergarten and school. PS I should point out that when it comes to being pragmatic in love I probably beat Spring: I am not convinced that Romeo and Juliet was the greatest love story ever told. To me it seemed like lust + circumstances + romanticism. A bit like Angel and Buffy really. Not like Buffy and Spike because that relationship lacked romanticism, but I suppose it could have developed. Romeo & Juliet is kidstuff, which - I know Bangels will protest, but ultimately, Buffy & Angel was kidstuff too. Spike & Buffy in Season 6 were all about the wild passion - obsessive, sexual, based on a heavy mutual attraction. That attraction was based on things that had begun to change in Season 7, and of course, would continue to change with time. To me, there was a "soulmate" aspect to their get-together - they have a lot in common. And what they did for each other - Buffy leading Spike to his soul, Spike leading Buffy back to life and to opening her heart again - certainly constitutes a "forever" kind of connection. And the relationship did develop romantic aspects in Season 7. But there were negative aspects and neither should close themselves to the possibilities (as Buffy did so for long, and to her detriment, after Angel). Season 6 analyses: You will catch-up, Kerrie!
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Post by Onjel on Apr 15, 2005 7:02:06 GMT -5
Romeo & Juliet is kidstuff, which - I know Bangels will protest, but ultimately, Buffy & Angel was kidstuff too. Spike & Buffy in Season 6 were all about the wild passion - obsessive, sexual, based on a heavy mutual attraction. That attraction was based on things that had begun to change in Season 7, and of course, would continue to change with time. To me, there was a "soulmate" aspect to their get-together - they have a lot in common. And what they did for each other - Buffy leading Spike to his soul, Spike leading Buffy back to life and to opening her heart again - certainly constitutes a "forever" kind of connection. And the relationship did develop romantic aspects in Season 7. But there were negative aspects and neither should close themselves to the possibilities (as Buffy did so for long, and to her detriment, after Angel). Season 6 analyses: You will catch-up, Kerrie! I totally agree with the kid stuff comment. As far as Spike and Buffy, I think that Spike felt that Buffy could be his soul mate, even ensouled, I don't think that Buffy felt that Spike was her soul mate. I am a sucker for romance, but my idea of romance is not necessarily like others' ideas. I am not the chocolates, flowers, long walks on the beach, etc. cookie cutter notions of romance, so Romeo and Juliet and Buffy Angel do not appeal to me. In those idealized pairings, no one goes to the bathroom, gets sick, you know, lives life in all its mess. I guess that is why I am partial to Spuffy. There was more that was real about their relationship and they knew each other, warts and all, so to speak.
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Post by Michelle on Apr 15, 2005 8:00:39 GMT -5
I totally agree with the kid stuff comment. As far as Spike and Buffy, I think that Spike felt that Buffy could be his soul mate, even ensouled, I don't think that Buffy felt that Spike was her soul mate. I am a sucker for romance, but my idea of romance is not necessarily like others' ideas. I am not the chocolates, flowers, long walks on the beach, etc. cookie cutter notions of romance, so Romeo and Juliet and Buffy Angel do not appeal to me. In those idealized pairings, no one goes to the bathroom, gets sick, you know, lives life in all its mess. I guess that is why I am partial to Spuffy. There was more that was real about their relationship and they knew each other, warts and all, so to speak. I think you're right, Buffy probably didn't see Spike as her soul mate, particularly not in Season 6. Though, she might have been working toward that in in Season 7, and perhaps was coming close to feeling that way in the episode "Touched." She tells Spike that it is *his* comfort that gave her the strength to get the scythe away from Caleb. At that point, she is acknowledging Spike as her equal and her support system. Buffy realized that Spike was more than just a strong fighter with a killer instinct, he was also someone who truly cared for her and would be there for her even when all of her other friends weren't. That's not Romeo & Juliet love. That's not Buffy & Angel love. That's real, honest, bare-bones love.
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