Listening to Fear Discussion

[William the Bloody]

Let the discussion begin!

[Laura]

Gee, ya think maybe I'm eagerly waiting the posting of Spring's analyses? ;D

Cara, as always, a brilliant job. I confess that on my initial viewing, I only picked up that Dawn and Joyce were "listening to fears" about what they were going through at the time, and that Buffy's "fears" stemmed primarily from her relationships with both of them. Of course, after Into the Woods, it's clear that Buffy and Riley are each listening to their respective fears about their own relationship as well.

But I didn't pick up -- as you so clearly have -- the amount of misinformation that was being tossed around at all of the characters, and how they managed (or didn't) to process it. Distraction, avoidance, perspectives -- it's all good.

And I particularly loved your image of Dawn and Spike being the light and dark halves of Buffy's persona, and how you show that this episode is very much a S6 episode (even though it aired in S5). For all the stars shining their light at the beginning of the episode, ultimately, we do end up talking about some very dead things, if not by the end of this episode, then within the next few.

I bow to you. Bravissima!

P.S. -- got your envelope. Tanti grazie![/size]

[Kate (K8)]

As always lots of interesting things I wouldn’t have noticed. Especially liked the bit about symbolism with the demon making people choke and how “it’s important not to internalize everything that spills out of someone’s mouth”.

Is the music Buffy plays the same or just similar to the music Dawn plays in Conversations With Dead People? If Dawn is her lighter, positive side wanting the same kind of music to try to block out the bad things and pretend nothings wrong seems appropriate.

Catherine, who has also been eagerly awaiting the analysis.

[Nan-S'cubie Mascot]

Spring, as always, an excellent analysis.

The Queller demon has always struck me as visually lame, so the threat it posed to Joyce wasn't appropriately frightening--much like the "penis monster" in DoubleMeat Palace in that respect. In prose, I usually can see what was meant despite or through what actually was said; in things dramatized, I don't do that as well, or at all. I somehow don't seem to accept meanings being presented visually, literally (Spike in the basement, Spike as Buffy's "below side") in that way.

The point, to whatever degree I have one, is: when an episode is symbolically rich but dramatically unsatisfying (as both Listening to Fear and DoubleMeat Palace are to me), to what degree does your analysis change your experience actually viewing it? Are the meanings enough to carry the occasional lame scene because the meaning is stronger than the visual? For you, I know, Listening to Fear may not be such an episode, but I'm sure there are some that do strike you as "Nice try, but no cigar," despite a weave of imagery that is rich and powerful. Do you come to see the discerned meanings rather than the actual story, or do you forgive the lame parts for the sake of the whole, including the meanings? (These are not exclusive alternatives--I sometimes do both. I do it with the extremely lame William hair in the Angel S6 views of William--just pretend they're not there, remembering from Fool for Love how William's hair is *supposed* to look and pretending that it does, instead of what I'm actually seeing).

Just curious about your take on the effect of thought and analysis on perception, in those cases where there's a significant disjunction between the two, at least initially.

[Cal]

Wonderful analysis, Spring. I especially liked the comment below:

"So that light – it matters. It matters. It matters that you shine your light, it matters how strongly you shine it, and it matters where you aim it. Do it right, and your light will be here, providing illumination, long after you are gone."

Because deep down, that's what we all want, isn't it? To make a difference. To be remembered when we're gone. To matter.

Although Buffy doesn't know it yet, Spike matters to her. He will be the one person who will be with her constantly. Who will believe in her. Despite all that happens in the coming seasons, that belief in her will never change. She matters.

As usual, your analysis has helped me enjoy the episode more than I did before. I'm looking forward to reading your analyses on the rest of the series.

Thanks, Spring.

[SpringSummers]

Laura said:

Gee, ya think maybe I'm eagerly waiting the posting of Spring's analyses? ;D

Cara, as always, a brilliant job. I confess that on my initial viewing, I only picked up that Dawn and Joyce were "listening to fears" about what they were going through at the time, and that Buffy's "fears" stemmed primarily from her relationships with both of them. Of course, after Into the Woods, it's clear that Buffy and Riley are each listening to their respective fears about their own relationship as well.

But I didn't pick up -- as you so clearly have -- the amount of misinformation that was being tossed around at all of the characters, and how they managed (or didn't) to process it. Distraction, avoidance, perspectives -- it's all good.

And I particularly loved your image of Dawn and Spike being the light and dark halves of Buffy's persona, and how you show that this episode is very much a S6 episode (even though it aired in S5). For all the stars shining their light at the beginning of the episode, ultimately, we do end up talking about some very dead things, if not by the end of this episode, then within the next few.

I bow to you. Bravissima!

P.S. -- got your envelope. Tanti grazie!

[/size][/quote]

Thank you Laura, for letting me know that you actually await the analyses. It helps me want to go on to the next one (which I am already working on, and finding it to be a very complex ep).

Spike & Dawn: I'm looking forward to the upcoming eps that have more Spike & Dawn interaction. They are a very interesting pair.

[SpringSummers]

k8 said:

As always lots of interesting things I wouldn’t have noticed. Especially liked the bit about symbolism with the demon making people choke and how “it’s important not to internalize everything that spills out of someone’s mouth”.

Is the music Buffy plays the same or just similar to the music Dawn plays in Conversations With Dead People? If Dawn is her lighter, positive side wanting the same kind of music to try to block out the bad things and pretend nothings wrong seems appropriate.

Catherine, who has also been eagerly awaiting the analysis.

Oh - someone else eagerly awaiting! Thanks, Catherine. It helps to know that you are eagerly awaiting.

The demon(s) in an episode - their particular characteristics or methods or motives - almost always are related directly to the central theme of the episode, I think.

I remember that the CWDP Dawn music made me think of Buffy and her "doing the dishes" music, but I just don't remember it well enough to compare them. May have been part of setting us up for Joyce's appearance, as well giving the impression that Dawn is in need of some distraction . . . I haven't seen that episode in quite awhile, so I'm not such a good judge on this one.

[SpringSummers]

Nan said:

Spring, as always, an excellent analysis.

Thank you!

The Queller demon has always struck me as visually lame, so the threat it posed to Joyce wasn't appropriately frightening--much like the "penis monster" in DoubleMeat Palace in that respect. In prose, I usually can see what was meant despite or through what actually was said; in things dramatized, I don't do that as well, or at all. I somehow don't seem to accept meanings being presented visually, literally (Spike in the basement, Spike as Buffy's "below side") in that way.

I have a harder time with the visual part as well; it seems to involve a different part of the brain or something. I have to approach an analysis of the visual in a very "separate" way at first. I look at the ep for the visual cues, I listen to the ep and read the script for the verbal, and then I try to see how it comes together.

The point, to whatever degree I have one, is: when an episode is symbolically rich but dramatically unsatisfying (as both Listening to Fear and DoubleMeat Palace are to me), to what degree does your analysis change your experience actually viewing it? Are the meanings enough to carry the occasional lame scene because the meaning is stronger than the visual? For you, I know, Listening to Fear may not be such an episode, but I'm sure there are some that do strike you as "Nice try, but no cigar," despite a weave of imagery that is rich and powerful. Do you come to see the discerned meanings rather than the actual story, or do you forgive the lame parts for the sake of the whole, including the meanings?

Of course, my favorite episodes provide both very good entertainment and a rich subtext, subtlely but powerfully woven in.

It needs to be powerfully present, but the more invisible the subtext is, the better the ep., in my opinion. Huge penis-shaped monster ejaculating on Buffy and paralyzing her from the waist down, in a Season that features Buffy falling into a sexual obsession? Kinda lame.

Willow and Tara stargazing and Willow talking about light from dead stars in an ep that is about who belongs with whom and is part of setting us up for Joyce's death? Not so lame at all.

BtVS is a show where the emotional honesty and philosophical consistency is never unnecessarily sacrificed for providing better standard entertainment value and fan-pleasing. Fans may want Buffy to marry Angel (e.g.), but she's never, ever gonna marry him, she was never gonna marry him, because it would fly in the face of the underlying set up.

But BtVS is a show where sometimes, the reverse is true: Standard entertainment value and fan pleasing is unnecessarily sacrificed, to emphasize the emotional states or the message.

I do agree with the overall phiolosophy here though: Emotional honesty and a consistent message takes priority.

(These are not exclusive alternatives--I sometimes do both. I do it with the extremely lame William hair in the Angel S6 views of William--just pretend they're not there, remembering from Fool for Love how William's hair is *supposed* to look and pretending that it does, instead of what I'm actually seeing).

Just curious about your take on the effect of thought and analysis on perception, in those cases where there's a significant disjunction between the two, at least initially.

I'm not at all bothered by what I (subjectively) see as small things: William's hair, Buffy's awful wig in Gone. I mean, I notice it, but it just doesn't cut into my enjoyment of an ep on any level.

I can definitely find an episode of BtVS boring or unsatisfying as a piece of entertainment. Then when I do the analysis, I can be happily surprised to find doing the analysis quite enjoyable, and to discover hidden depths and very nice features to the ep. It does help me enjoy it on subsequent watchings. But it will never turn DMP into FFL. It can just make DMP more fun and interesting and I can appreciate it more.

There were things I very much did like in DMP, that were much more subtle than the silly penis monster. The Buffy & Spike scenes in the ep are very well done, including that dumpster scene.

[SpringSummers]

cal said:

Wonderful analysis, Spring. I especially liked the comment below:

"So that light – it matters. It matters. It matters that you shine your light, it matters how strongly you shine it, and it matters where you aim it. Do it right, and your light will be here, providing illumination, long after you are gone."

Because deep down, that's what we all want, isn't it? To make a difference. To be remembered when we're gone. To matter.

Although Buffy doesn't know it yet, Spike matters to her. He will be the one person who will be with her constantly. Who will believe in her. Despite all that happens in the coming seasons, that belief in her will never change. She matters.

As usual, your analysis has helped me enjoy the episode more than I did before. I'm looking forward to reading your analyses on the rest of the series.

Thanks, Spring.

Thanks to you too, cal.

I agree with your take on Buffy & Spike. Spike matters to Buffy, he has mattered from the beginning. Buffy matters to Spike, same way. Both are in major denial about it until Spike has his dream and can't deny it anymore in Season 5. Buffy is in denial until almost the end of Season 7, but then she has his chip removed, tells him she believes in him, chooses him as the one she wants by her side at the end, and tells him she loves him.

He gets his soul for her. She opens up her heart again, for him.

But even when they are in denial, they are always there for each other when it counts, protecting each other. It's just an amazing love story, beautifully told.

[Cal]

SpringSummers said:

Thanks to you too, cal.

I agree with your take on Buffy & Spike. Spike matters to Buffy, he has mattered from the beginning. Buffy matters to Spike, same way. Both are in major denial about it until Spike has his dream and can't deny it anymore in Season 5. Buffy is in denial until almost the end of Season 7, but then she has his chip removed, tells him she believes in him, chooses him as the one she wants by her side at the end, and tells him she loves him.

He gets his soul for her. She opens up her heart again, for him.

But even when they are in denial, they are always there for each other when it counts, protecting each other. It's just an amazing love story, beautifully told.

As usual, you say exactly what I want to say, only much better than I ever could. ITA with everything you say above. Theirs is a love story like no other, imo. I just wish that we could have seen Buffy's reaction to Spike being alive in AtS.

[Kate (K8)]

Was re-watching Listening to Fear earlier I was struck by how many times teaching and knowing was mentioned.

For example, Buffy talks about teaching Dawn things and about college work with Willow. Willow wants Tara to teach her Tara’s version of the constellations. Joyce says: “I just didn't know. Those eyes ...Those eyes, they're like gasoline puddles! Tell me . Tell me because I need to know why, why are you staring at me like that? What are you asking me? You are asking me, aren't you? Is this a test? And if this counts for the final grade, I need to know now! Okay, there are teachers, and they put this on the syllabus, but they do not stare down at you, they do not cling, they do not look down on you....”. Riley knows where the Queller has gone after the car park and Dreg wants to know why Ben did what he did. Did a rough count on the transcript with the “find” tool and the word “know” alone is used more than thirty times.

There’s lots of withholding knowledge or information too. Buffy didn’t immediately tell Dawn about what the doctor had said about Joyce maybe saying weird things or, obviously, the real reason why the crazy people said things about her. Spike hid what he was up to in the basement and Riley’s trying to conceal his visits to the vampire and his calling the commandos (s'pose keeping secrets from eachother is pretty normal for the Scoobies though).

Wonder whether Ben thought about the fact that the Queller might come after Joyce or any other curable mental patients when he decided to “clean up Glory’s mess”.

[SpringSummers]

k8 said:

Was re-watching Listening to Fear earlier I was struck by how many times teaching and knowing was mentioned.

For example, Buffy talks about teaching Dawn things and about college work with Willow. Willow wants Tara to teach her Tara’s version of the constellations. Joyce says: “I just didn't know. Those eyes ...Those eyes, they're like gasoline puddles! Tell me . Tell me because I need to know why, why are you staring at me like that? What are you asking me? You are asking me, aren't you? Is this a test? And if this counts for the final grade, I need to know now! Okay, there are teachers, and they put this on the syllabus, but they do not stare down at you, they do not cling, they do not look down on you....”. Riley knows where the Queller has gone after the car park and Dreg wants to know why Ben did what he did. Did a rough count on the transcript with the “find” tool and the word “know” alone is used more than thirty times.

Let me say first that I appreciate the way you're looking at the episode, and sharing those thoughts here. I really can't write about every reference I see, or everything I notice in an episode, in my analysis, because well - the scripts are designed so that just about every word and image relates back to a central theme, and each scene relates to each of the others. So I try to provide a basis from which readers can read and then on rewatching, see everything I saw, and more.

And yep. Also, remember the mention of Buffy's exam on WWI? This is a continuing theme for the Season - people being tested, needing/seeking knowledge, and definitely, this particular episode is about "opening your mind" and finding the truth - separating fact from fiction.

There’s lots of withholding knowledge or information too. Buffy didn’t immediately tell Dawn about what the doctor had said about Joyce maybe saying weird things or, obviously, the real reason why the crazy people said things about her. Spike hid what he was up to in the basement and Riley’s trying to conceal his visits to the vampire and his calling the commandos (s'pose keeping secrets from each other is pretty normal for the Scoobies though).

Yes - lots of misinformation or withholding of information or just plain lying in this episode. ("Santa wouldn't lie.") Again, this fits in with the "separate facts from fiction" theme. Forget what Spike (e.g.) says about why he's in the basement. What do the facts say?

Wonder whether Ben thought about the fact that the Queller might come after Joyce or any other curable mental patients when he decided to “clean up Glory’s mess”.

I am guessing Ben didn't think about Joyce at all - his decision here isn't rational, and it definitely wasn't sensitive to others. He sees that that Glory's "mess" is overloading the hospital and burdening people in general, - so he decides to call a demon to kill her victims?

I haven't spent much time trying to get a bead on him, but we haven't seen all that much of him yet. Maybe I'll get a clearer picture of his character and motives once I spend time analyzing eps farther into the season.

[Kate (K8)]

I really can't write about every reference I see, or everything I notice in an episode, in my analysis, because well - the scripts are designed so that just about every word and image relates back to a central theme, and each scene relates to the each of the others.

Yeah, and trying to write about everything would take forever. It's fun trying to find new things in episodes. In the past before I read good analyses like yours I didn't realise there was so much hidden in episodes. Posting things I noticed too means I get to see if anyone agrees and ususally means I learn something else too. Having a place where you can ask questions about the analyses is different from any other site I've seen.

This is a continuing theme for the Season - people being tested, needing/seeking knowledge, and definitely, this particular episode is about "opening your mind" and finding the truth - separating fact from fiction.

Like Dawn finding out about herself and Buffy visiting the first slayer? Are there other examples?

I am guessing Ben didn't think about Joyce at all - his decision here isn't rational, and it definitely wasn't sensitive to others. He sees that that Glory's "mess" is overloading the hospital and burdening people in general, - so he decides to call a demon to kill her victims?

Not thinking about others may be a little forshadowing of the choice he makes to save himself by sacrficing Dawn (maybe?).

[LadyDi]

"I think all the parallels between Spike and Dawn are about this: Dawn upstairs, Buffy on the ground floor, Spike in the basement. Dawn and Spike each represent a side of Buffy. Dawn is her light side – her girlishness, her innocence, her purity. Spike is her dark side – her Slayer half, her attraction to violence, her baser instincts."

In one of your earlier analyses (s2) you made a similar point about Spike and Angel each representing a side of Buffy. Interesting that Spike and Dawn should get along so well, when Spike and Angel are all about the animosity. Do you suppose it's meant to show the gradual acceptance in Buffy of both her light and dark sides?

[SpringSummers]

LadyDi said:

"I think all the parallels between Spike and Dawn are about this: Dawn upstairs, Buffy on the ground floor, Spike in the basement. Dawn and Spike each represent a side of Buffy. Dawn is her light side – her girlishness, her innocence, her purity. Spike is her dark side – her Slayer half, her attraction to violence, her baser instincts."

In one of your earlier analyses (s2) you made a similar point about Spike and Angel each representing a side of Buffy. Interesting that Spike and Dawn should get along so well, when Spike and Angel are all about the animosity. Do you suppose it's meant to show the gradual acceptance in Buffy of both her light and dark sides?

Interesting point, Lady Di.

I do think that Dawn replaces Angel as primary in Buffy's heart, and as a feeling of connection to her . . . higher self.

Her relationship with Angel didn't stay all pure and perfect - lust entered the picture and those twains didn't meet too well. So she felt painfully disconnected from the part of herself she most cherished, at the end of Season 2. And then, to lesser extent because she'd grown up some, she also felt painfully disconnected at the end of Season 3.

(Speaking of Season 3, I think Faith played the Spike role during this time, as Buffy's dark side. She and Angel had an attraction to each other, and despite ups and downs, also began to eventually get along well).

Spike & Angel had a long history pre-Buffy, and also, their interaction is during a time when Spike is unchipped and unsouled. Young "all black and white, all starry-eyed" Buffy hates that Spike more, and more completely, than she hates Season 5 Spike. And Buffy is more wildly and blindly infatuated with Angel, than she ever is with Dawn.

So . . . I do think Dawn & Spike's greater openness and acceptance of one another (And Angel & Faith's) speaks to to Buffy's need for self-integration, and to the fact that Buffy is growing up . . . and that it foreshadows that growing up process.

Someday, Spike too, will be cherished, and will be in her heart.