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Post by William the Bloody on Jul 10, 2004 20:01:52 GMT -5
Let the discussion begin!
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Post by Kerrie on Jul 11, 2004 16:01:01 GMT -5
Another great review, Spring!
I particularly liked the idea that only the innocent side of Buffy wanted to be with Riley and that the dark woman side was irritated by him and did not want him to stay. In terms of the battle of the sexes, did you ever read Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus? This is a great book for reducing conflict between the sexes. I don't think JW would like it because conflict between the sexes can't be readily resolved when the goals of each are contradictory. I also thought it was a good catch that Xander's story mirrored Buffy's and Riley's. I could never really understand how Xander would say in this episdoe that he wanted Anya to tell him if there was a problem, but then not tell her about his problems as he experienced them. I won't say that it doesn't make sense because at some level it does, but it did strike me as odd that he could go from being so uncharactericstically certain to so characteristically uncertain without explaining the change.
Reading the review it seemed to me that you were trying to say that Buffy has stopped chasing romantic dreams when she failed to catch the helicopter. How does this fit in with her attraction to The Immortal in The Girl in Question? (I will admit I couldn't watch the episode properly. Unknown to me my video heads got badly soiled by a rental tape and so I could only watch a flickering picture which I could see about one third of all the tape. It was enugh to piece together the story with Nan's review.)
I am sorry that I have probably mashed your meanings. I got interupted before I had a chance to re-read your analysis and I had already clicked on here and I didn't want to be the 8th reader of Vlad's post. (This makes sense only in my mind! Alas that I can't wander out of it. ;D)
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 11, 2004 20:39:29 GMT -5
Another great review, Spring! Thank you! I have never read that book, though I once saw the author on TV talking about it - years ago, and I remember thinking that it sounded too simplistic and that ultimately, there was nothing new or particularly helpful in it. I also remember the feeling that he had a good grip on the "men" part, but didn't really understand women nearly as well as he thought he did. But to be fair, I did not read it, just saw an interview - and that was years ago. Xander isn't at all sure about Anya; he is very good though, at telling right from wrong, and he's very sure that Buffy's accusation is true- the way he has been treating Anya is wrong. I thought Xander was trying really hard in this episode, to do what he thought was right. But ultimately things aren't going to work out for Xander & Anya in Season 6, because wishing can't make it true - Xander isn't ready to love Anya the way he should, as much as he'd like to. Well, I wasn't exactly saying Buffy stopped chasing romantic dreams - it is more like. . . Buffy is heading down path to adulthood (into the woods!), while another part of her still clings to her childhood and idealized views of romance, etc. She did chase that helicopter; she just didn't catch it. It's going to be Season 7 before she truly lets go of her very idealized definition of romantic love. It was hard to tell anything about Buffy's relationship with The Immortal from that episode, but my guess from what we saw was that she was just having fun and not building a serious relationship of any kind. . If you have a chance to re-read and have any more questions or comments, don't hesitate to post! |
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Post by Rob on Jul 11, 2004 21:08:21 GMT -5
First of all, I love this review. I think you captured to triangular nature of the relationships very well...Riley/Buffy/Spike and Anya/Willow/Xander aren't very similar on the surface, but it's pretty clear that Willow and Anya (in their own way) are vying for Xander, just as Riley and Spike vie for Buffy.
It's handled in a slightly different way, of course...two women fight over Xander, while two men share a need for Buffy's affections. There's a whole different dynamic there.
The results are different, however: in the short term, it appears Willow and Anya handled things better. Their conflict is somewhat resolved (reading ahead to Triangle, there...sorry Spring) for the time being. On the other hand, Spike and Riley recognize their mutual needs and limitations vis a vis Buffy...and the triangle ends very shortly afterward.
In the long term, however...Xander was unable to avoid his inner demons, while Buffy was forced to face down her own. Who had the healthier outcome?
Truthfully, I don't know. Both wound up causing great emotional (in Buffy's case occasionally physical) damage to those they loved. It seems both had to travel that road the hard way, no matter how those who loved them reacted.
Spike and Anya served as lightning rods in these separate conflicts, and both wound up paying dearly by doing so. Ultimately, both changed immeasurably...Spike regained his soul, while Anya began to finally understand her own.
If there is a message I can glean from all that, it would be this: as much as we may want to take the easy road, the bumpy one must be experienced so we can figure out when to exit and find an alternate route...or when to stick with their choice and wait for the surface to smooth out.
I don't know if the experienced traveler can understand when to make that choice until they become hopelessly lost at some point. Perhaps Buffy and Xander were choosing to do that unconsciously. Who knows, maybe we all do at some point.
I know this much: when Spike and Willow began to be overtaken by their demons, it's Buffy and Xander, respectively, who manage to save them...and they do it simply by being who they are. They may have been unable to find the strength to do something like that without navigating that painful road first.
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One point with which I have to disagree, Spring: I really don't think Xander's problem was exclusively to do with being needed. That's part of it, but...if that all it was, he wouldn't have been so desperately in love with someone like Buffy, who clearly did not require protecting (in the physical sense, that is). He longed for her to respect and love him, absolutely...but her power didn't bother him at all. In fact, unlike Riley, he really DID like it. Strength in women - whether it be intellectual and physical - are a turn-on for Xander Harris. It's possible that is due to witnessing his mother being repeatedly victimized by his father.
Regardless of the psychological reason, it results in yet another similarity between Xander and Spike: both are enraptured by powerful females.
Every woman Xander has ever hooked up with is powerful in her own way...most importantly, none of them (in Xander's view) would allow themselves to remain in a relationship in which they're abused.
So...he wasn't the least bit bothered by Buffy "growing a few extra hands." Her power wasn't the issue. He was, however, concerned with her leaving her human side behind. To him, that side was represented by Riley...and, to a lesser extent, himself. I think Xander was perfectly right to a degree. Buffy IS about to go through a good deal of pain in subsequent years while she learns how to deal with her duality. What Xander doesn't understand is this: she probably needs to do that before she can be happy with anyone, human or otherwise.
Xander's later actions - expressing how special Anya made him feel - are quite true...again, to a degree. The relationship served as a mask for his own feelings of uselessness, especially compared to accomplished people like Buffy, Willow and Giles. In the end, those feelings will cause great pain...Xander's fragile self-esteem couldn't handle the strain of Anya's dependence. Finally - naturally at the worst possible moment - he forced himself to face reality. It's ironic that his finest quality - the ability to see through people on an emotional level - failed him when it came to his own situation.
Thing is, Xander Harris grew up detesting his own personal reality, because all it ever did was hurt him. That's why it took him so long to ask Buffy out in Season 1 (though deep down he had to know the answer to that question...he's seen her with Angel, after all). He wanted it so much, though...and the longer he put off the final plunge, the longer he could avoid the pain of rejection. Now, since Anya had hitched her emotional wagon to his, that inability to bite the emotional bullet caused it to rip through Anya as well as himself.
When Xander made that speech to Anya in "Into the Woods," he wasn't taking any plunge at all. The plunge would have been addressing their mutual lack of self-worth, and possibly taking a break from each other. That was the reality of the situation...instead, he dove backward into the facade, because it was safer than addressing their issues.
In his defense, Anya was clearly asking far too much of Xander...like any human, he wanted to be valued, but not to the point that he was all she had. When it came down to it, Xander didn't feel he deserved to be needed anyway, because the key people in his life (especially Buffy or Giles, who was unwittingly Xander's true father figure) took the time to tell him so.
In short, while I agree he wanted to be needed (I happen to believe that is a human trait, not a gender-based one)...no relationship was going to work until he understood WHY he should be. Saving Willow - and by extension, the whole world - served that purpose.
Ok, this is running long, and making less sense as I go. Let me say it once more: I loved the review, Spring. Can't wait for Triangle.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 12, 2004 5:37:21 GMT -5
First of all, I love this review. I think you captured to triangular nature of the relationships very well...Riley/Buffy/Spike and Anya/Willow/Xander aren't very similar on the surface, but it's pretty clear that Willow and Anya (in their own way) are vying for Xander, just as Riley and Spike vie for Buffy. Thank you In the long term, I think both Xander & Buffy did well and ended up basically in the same place. Agree - in the end, the members of the couples truly save each other . . . just by being who they are (Good way to put it). I don't think that this was Xander's problem exclusively either. Didn't mean to imply that - definitely, his inner demons are more complex than that. He was definitely better than Riley about it, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it "didn't bother him at all." His "grew extra hands" remark, his sending her after Riley as the once-in-a-lifetime guy, his turning to the very needy Anya . . . and there are other things throughout the series, that point to the idea that it did bother him to some degree. Again, I agree, but I wouldn't put it at 100%. If it was at 100%, he wouldn't have gotten engaged to a woman whose main goal in life was to be Mrs Xander Harris. But Anya did allow herself to remain in a relationship in which she was being abused (used) by Xander. Disagree. He was complaining - he says he "would have helped" but she grew extra hands. I agree Xander is very good at handling strength in women, and better than Riley. But he has some problems with it, and we see them sometimes. I agree - but that's what "having problems with strength in women" is all about in men, I think - serving as a mask for feelings of uselessness in the self. Hello to the imagery! Nice. Xander saw it as taking a plunge; he was trying to do what was right and was willing to give risking his heart a try. His intentions were brave and honorable, but underneath it all, he didn't really know what he was doing. Agree! But at that point, it was Anya's neediness that was making Xander "feel like a man," due, as you said, to his own inner demons (lack of confidence in himself). I think the overwhelming need to be needed by your "spouse" is more a male thing. At least that has been my experience. Women are rarely attracted to weakness or neediness or helplessness or ditziness in a man; Men can be very attracted to such things in a woman. Hence the "save the damsel" fictional genre, and the fact that someone as . . . sad . . . as Marilyn Monroe could become a mega-sex symbol. Are all men that way? No - and definitely there are degrees of it. But I do think there is a gender difference here. Thank you, Rob! I was really hoping I would hear from you on this analysis. And I think we actually, underneath it all, see Xander much the same way. I would love to hear your input on my Triangle analysis as well. |
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Post by Nickim on Jul 12, 2004 14:36:58 GMT -5
Riley needs "real wood." Spring, you are so bad.
I keep thinking of the Black Forest in Germany. Fairytales tell us that there are all sorts of dangers in the forest. Wild animals want to eat us, trees come to life and grab us, the darkness can cause us to trip and fall. Buffy has to face the darkness in herself to find and fully appreciate the light.
I read just recently that a recent survey showed that couples who highly idealized each other actually have a better success rate. They tend to try harder to live up to each other's expectations. So maybe it's not such a good thing to outgrow that childhood belief that we will meet that "perfect" person.
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Post by Nickim on Jul 12, 2004 14:37:57 GMT -5
Riley needs "real wood." Spring, you are so bad.
I keep thinking of the Black Forest in Germany. Fairytales tell us that there are all sorts of dangers in the forest. Wild animals want to eat us, trees come to life and grab us, the darkness can cause us to trip and fall. But the fairytale princess always has to survive the forest before she can find true happiness. Buffy has to face the darkness in herself to find and fully appreciate the light.
I read just recently that a recent survey showed that couples who highly idealized each other actually have a better success rate. They tend to try harder to live up to each other's expectations. So maybe it's not such a good thing to outgrow that childhood belief that we will meet that "perfect" person.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 12, 2004 19:33:49 GMT -5
Excellent, thought provoking ideas as usual, Spring. Spike as the catalyst for action, the comparison between the triangles of Buffy&Spike&Riley and Xander&Anya&Willow. Especially loved your continuing exploration of the parallels between Riley and Spike. I found them very intriguing the first time you started pointing them out and they’ve continued to fascinate me. Joss and ME do seem to love to use similar / identical lines or phrases to draw a comparison between characters or events, don’t they? (Well, also as a way to demonstrate continuity and a reward for loyal fans.) Very interesting thoughts on risk and making the right choices. I have to admit to my own bias when I hear the phrase (that we hear in this ep) about “taking someone for granted”. Because in a good relationship, there is the right kind of “taking for granted” – meaning you can count on the other person. Not living with the same level of uncertainty and forced “over-nice” dating behavior. Being able to be yourself with a person and knowing they will accept and still love you, even if they don’t perhaps like you all the time. But that’s not what Buffy is doing. She is not really “there” for Riley, as he knows in his heart. She needs the real wood. (Sorry, loved that line too much, had to quote it. ;D ) Spike seems often to be the ultimate practical guy, doesn’t he? With his quick statement of “No. You got the better deal”, he seems to be saying that being able to have a physical, sexual relationship with Buffy would be enough - is pretty much all he's looking for. But if we really listen to the full import of what he is saying in this whole speech to Riley, he’s actually more the ultimate poetic, sappy guy. ‘Cuz all that talk about Buffy needing more monster in her man and how he doesn’t have a chance but a guy’s gotta try? Sounds like quintessential “I’m really her soulmate and yet it’s all doomed” romantic idealist, to me.  ‘Nother angle that they don’t really play up in this ep, but I’ve seen addressed in interesting ways in some fanfic. Buffy does talk about the very real danger that Riley was placing himself in. But there could have been consequences for the rest of the gang as well. What if he had been killed? What if he had been turned? Would Buffy’s reaction to seeing him as a vampire slow her down just that fraction that might have allowed Vamp!Riley to get a slayer under his belt? Might a vamped Riley have shown up at the slayer’s house and easily gotten Joyce or Dawn to let him in? It’s not really germane to the things they needed to accomplish with this ep, but it’s an interesting side issue that I sometimes think about. Anyway, nice job, Spring! I’m gonna have to try much harder to keep up with all the activity here at S3 this summer. Whew – and who said summer was the time to rest and take it easy, huh?  Lola |
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Post by Queen E on Jul 12, 2004 19:47:32 GMT -5
Wow. All the S'cubies are so smart!
I'm not sure I have a lot to add. Your analysis makes me view this episode in a much more forgiving light. I never hated Riley, but in this episode (and those prior to it), he was jumping on my last nerve. My initial thoughts were "How dare you be this needy when she has so much to deal with? Sick mother, new sister, hellgod, and you want to come before all that?" But your analysis definitely brings to the fore the inevitability and sadness that was the end of their relationship, as well as the connection with Xander, which I'd initially viewed as nebulous.
Thanks, Spring! Can't wait to read "Triangle" tomorrow!
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 13, 2004 5:32:36 GMT -5
Riley needs "real wood." Spring, you are so bad. Thanks for noticin'. I made myself chuckle when I wrote that line, but didn't know if anyone would be reading closely enough to share the chuckle. You are psychic! I kind of take that approach toward Olaf in my next analysis - Olaf as a beastie they come across in the enchanted forest. I think it all depends on how the person handles the inevitable disillusions that come with adulthood. No one is really perfect, and some people do OK finding that out and dealing with it, and some people don't. Well - it's a complex picture, but basically, I think seeing things as they really are always works out best in the end. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 13, 2004 5:40:08 GMT -5
Excellent, thought provoking ideas as usual, Spring. Spike as the catalyst for action, the comparison between the triangles of Buffy&Spike&Riley and Xander&Anya&Willow. Especially loved your continuing exploration of the parallels between Riley and Spike. I found them very intriguing the first time you started pointing them out and they’ve continued to fascinate me. Joss and ME do seem to love to use similar / identical lines or phrases to draw a comparison between characters or events, don’t they? (Well, also as a way to demonstrate continuity and a reward for loyal fans.) Very interesting thoughts on risk and making the right choices. I have to admit to my own bias when I hear the phrase (that we hear in this ep) about “taking someone for granted”. Because in a good relationship, there is the right kind of “taking for granted” – meaning you can count on the other person. Not living with the same level of uncertainty and forced “over-nice” dating behavior. Being able to be yourself with a person and knowing they will accept and still love you, even if they don’t perhaps like you all the time. Thanks Lola - and interesting thoughts here. Yes, I agree, there is a way that "taking for granted" is a good thing when it simply means that you have come to truly trust the other person. Hee. I do think that plastic wood grain for Riley was a deliberate thing, as far as paralleling his effect (or lack thereof) on Buffy. I mean - he makes a hole in Spike's heart, but it's not fatal because he doesn't have real wood? I must say again: Hello to the imagery! Yes, I agree. Personally, I'm not sure Vamp Riley would have messed with Buffy much. Stick around, Lola . . . there is plenty going on here, isn't there? |
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 13, 2004 5:45:31 GMT -5
Wow. All the S'cubies are so smart! I'm not sure I have a lot to add. Your analysis makes me view this episode in a much more forgiving light. I never hated Riley, but in this episode (and those prior to it), he was jumping on my last nerve. My initial thoughts were "How dare you be this needy when she has so much to deal with? Sick mother, new sister, hellgod, and you want to come before all that?" But your analysis definitely brings to the fore the inevitability and sadness that was the end of their relationship, as well as the connection with Xander, which I'd initially viewed as nebulous. Thanks, Spring! Can't wait to read "Triangle" tomorrow! Thanks for the feedback, eg. Every bit of commentary means a lot to me as far as keeping me going on this. Riley - my take is basically that he was right in realizing that the relationship was uneven, and right in leaving (because who wants that?) . . . but he had his problems and immaturities and he was very young and he handled the whole thing imperfectly. But ultimately he was strong enough to do the right thing (Spike's action in taking Buffy to the suckhouse actually helped him here. It made him face the problem and move on, instead of sinking deeper into his addiction). |
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Post by LadyDi on Jul 13, 2004 18:50:15 GMT -5
It was hard to tell anything about Buffy's relationship with The Immortal from that episode, but my guess from what we saw was that she was just having fun and not building a serious relationship of any kind. .
I don't see The Immortal as the type to forsake all others (for very long, at least) and Buffy tends to be a bit...possessive. Despite what Andrew told Angel and Spike, I doubt this relationship is serious. Since ME wanted SMG for Power Play, I think of TGiQ as a set-up. Spike was supposed to assume Andrew had spilled the beans and Buffy wasn't interested, which would lead to her showing up on his doorstep or some such.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 14, 2004 6:28:24 GMT -5
It was hard to tell anything about Buffy's relationship with The Immortal from that episode, but my guess from what we saw was that she was just having fun and not building a serious relationship of any kind. .
I don't see The Immortal as the type to forsake all others (for very long, at least) and Buffy tends to be a bit...possessive. Despite what Andrew told Angel and Spike, I doubt this relationship is serious. Since ME wanted SMG for Power Play, I think of TGiQ as a set-up. Spike was supposed to assume Andrew had spilled the beans and Buffy wasn't interested, which would lead to her showing up on his doorstep or some such. Good point about The Immortal - I mean, even in the unlikely event Buffy's intentions were serious, his aren't likely to be. But I was actually thinking more of Buffy's mind set. I didn't think Andrew said much suggesting the relationship was serious, but mostly, my feeling that Buffy is just "having fun" comes from her cookie-dough speech to Angel in Chosen. It seemed to me that she really meant what she said - I mean, her intention was to "bake" awhile before getting into anything serious (if she even ever does). And despite the way she sort of "let Angel down easy," and told Spike she loved him, I also thought the implication was that if she ever did "get serious" it would be with someone who could offer her a full (in the sunshine, fat grandchildren possible, type of) life - not a good time Charlie like The Immortal, who isn't even going to age - therefore is not a real candidate for "long haul guy." |
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Post by LadyDi on Jul 15, 2004 10:34:02 GMT -5
Good point about The Immortal - I mean, even in the unlikely event Buffy's intentions were serious, his aren't likely to be. But I was actually thinking more of Buffy's mind set. I didn't think Andrew said much suggesting the relationship was serious, but mostly, my feeling that Buffy is just "having fun" comes from her cookie-dough speech to Angel in Chosen. It seemed to me that she really meant what she said - I mean, her intention was to "bake" awhile before getting into anything serious (if she even ever does). And despite the way she sort of "let Angel down easy," and told Spike she loved him, I also thought the implication was that if she ever did "get serious" it would be with someone who could offer her a full (in the sunshine, fat grandchildren possible, type of) life - not a good time Charlie like The Immortal, who isn't even going to age - therefore is not a real candidate for "long haul guy." Andrew did tell the guys Buffy was happy and in love. Still, this is Andrew, who's not the most reliable narrator. Despite my opinion of the cookie dough speech (kinda lame), I believe Buffy was sincerely trying to explain how she felt while letting Angel down easy. As for Spike, we don't know (and may never know - d*mn you, WB!D) what Joss really had in store for him. If he shanshued, sunshine and grandchildren would no longer be out of the question. It's even possible one of JW's "other ideas" could make these things possible as well. OTOH, Buffy's dalliance (sp?) w/The Immortal suggests she is much more open to new relationships, and we all know who she has to thank for that. |
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