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Post by tichtich on Apr 14, 2006 3:00:26 GMT -5
Hi! Great discussion.
I've come to this party rather late. I'm currently watching the series for only the second time, and just got as far as "Into The Woods". One thing is bugging me: I just can't work out why the episode is so named. I'm probably being dumb, but could someone please explain.
Obviously, the metaphorical meaning refers to going into a dark place, and clearly some of the characters (especially Buffy) are going into some dark places this season. But that's been going on for some episodes now. So why is the name particularly relevant to this episode?
Maybe the meaning will become clearer later in the season. It's been a few years since I last watched it, and my memory is rather hazy.
P.S. How can I make sure I receive automatic notifications of new contributions to this thread?
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 14, 2006 7:23:22 GMT -5
Hi! Great discussion. I've come to this party rather late. I'm currently watching the series for only the second time, and just got as far as "Into The Woods". One thing is bugging me: I just can't work out why the episode is so named. I'm probably being dumb, but could someone please explain. Obviously, the metaphorical meaning refers to going into a dark place, and clearly some of the characters (especially Buffy) are going into some dark places this season. But that's been going on for some episodes now. So why is the name particularly relevant to this episode? Maybe the meaning will become clearer later in the season. It's been a few years since I last watched it, and my memory is rather hazy. P.S. How can I make sure I receive automatic notifications of new contributions to this thread? Hi, tichtich - good to hear from you. It's never too late to join the discussion. I agree with your general thoughts about why Buffy is going "Into the Woods." I think the reason this episode in particular is called "Into the Woods" is because it's the one where Buffy, actually and metaphorically, "lets Riley fly." From here on in, she's going to be moving away from "Riley" - her attempt to hang on to normalcy and good-girlness and her idealized version of life and love (childhood, black-and-white, good guys vs bad guys), her attempt to stay in the sunshine despite her wicked (but denied) attraction to the darkness - and toward "Spike" (her dark side). She officially begins her exploration of the "woods" - something she's never going to do while holding Riley's hand. Riley can't be her guide or companion through the woods - she has to let go of his hand to start through the woods in earnest. As Spike mentions in this episode, it's just not in Riley. He can't be the one to help Buffy explore, accept, acknowledge, integrate her dark side (part of coming of age, the whole growth to a full, responsible adulthood and accepting the very unideal world as it is, etc). So - to me, this ep marks when Buffy stops "flirting with the woods while keeping one foot in the sunny meadow," and really starts through them. I think of it as metaphorically represented by Spike and Riley. Soon after this, she's going to be kissing Spike, in Intervention. I also think the title harkens back to all the "Wizard of Oz" and "Dorothy" imagery for Buffy.
As far as how to get email notifications . . . I thought there used to be a checkbox on the screen, that you could check when you were posting a message, to say "send me email notifications," but I don't see it now. Can any of you technopagan types be of help to tichtich here?
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Post by Matthew on Apr 14, 2006 8:31:19 GMT -5
Hi! Great discussion. I've come to this party rather late. I'm currently watching the series for only the second time, and just got as far as "Into The Woods". One thing is bugging me: I just can't work out why the episode is so named. I'm probably being dumb, but could someone please explain. Obviously, the metaphorical meaning refers to going into a dark place, and clearly some of the characters (especially Buffy) are going into some dark places this season. But that's been going on for some episodes now. So why is the name particularly relevant to this episode? Maybe the meaning will become clearer later in the season. It's been a few years since I last watched it, and my memory is rather hazy. P.S. How can I make sure I receive automatic notifications of new contributions to this thread? Hi, tichtich! Welcome to the S-cubed with your first official post, and all! I thought that the title might have something to do with Sondheim's "fractured fairy tales" musical of the same name: the first act is all "we're gonna be so happily ever after!" and the second act is "God, 'happily ever after' is kinda sucky!" And I don't think that proboards does e-mail notifications anymore: what you can do is bookmark a thread: should be the first checkbox at the top under the posting box: this will allow you to go back and check through threads you have of especial interest. Wish I could be more helpful. But anyways, welcome! Glad you joined the discussion: feel free to drop by our main discussion salon, anytime, and say hello!
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Post by tichtich on Apr 14, 2006 8:50:10 GMT -5
Thanks for your reply, Spring. I think the reason this episode in particular is called "Into the Woods" is because it's the one where Buffy, actually and metaphorically, "lets Riley fly." From here on in, she's going to be moving away from "Riley" - her attempt to hang on to normalcy and good-girlness and her idealized version of life and love (childhood, black-and-white, good guys vs bad guys), her attempt to stay in the sunshine despite her wicked (but denied) attraction to the darkness - and toward "Spike" (her dark side). She officially begins her exploration of the "woods" - something she's never going to do while holding Riley's hand. Riley can't be her guide or companion through the woods - she has to let go of his hand to start through the woods in earnest. As Spike mentions in this episode, it's just not in Riley. He can't be the one to help Buffy explore, accept, acknowledge, integrate her dark side (part of coming of age, the whole growth to a full, responsible adulthood and accepting the very unideal world as it is, etc). I think you're right that Buffy's journey into the woods is one of self-exploration. But I'm not sure that the initial impetus for that journey is her split from Riley. If it is, then the start of her journey is despite herself, and her attempt to make up with Riley at the end of the episode is an attempt to avoid the journey. On the contrary, I think that decision was a positive one. She decided to open up to Riley and to try to love him fully, instead of holding back as she'd done ever since being hurt by Angel. Wasn't it that decision which was the step into the woods? Of course, it may also be true that this first step into the woods wouldn't have led anywhere if she'd succeeded in getting back with Riley. But I'm not sure. A more mature relationship with Riley may have been another route to self-knowledge. But I suppose we'll never know. I also think the title harkens back to all the "Wizard of Oz" and "Dorothy" imagery for Buffy. I've just done some Googling, but couldn't find any connection between "Into The Woods" and "Wizard of Oz". But there is a stage musical called "Into The Woods". This final part of the lyrics seems relevant: Company: So into the woods you go again, You have to every now and then. Into the woods, no telling when, Be ready for the journey. Into the woods, but not too fast or what you wish, you lose at last. Into the woods, but mind the past. Into the woods, but mind the future. Into the woods, but not to stray, Or tempt the wolf, or steal from the giant-- The way is dark, The light is dim, But now there's you, me, her, and him. The chances look small, The choices look grim, But everything you learn there Will help when you return there. Baker, Jack, Cinderella, LRRH: The light is getting dimmer.. Baker: I think I see a glimmer-- All: Into the woods--you have to grope, But that's the way you learn to cope. Into the woods to find there's hope Of getting through the journey. Into the woods, each time you go, There's more to learn of what you know. Into the woods, but not too slow-- Into the woods, it's nearing midnight-- Into the woods to mind the wolf, To heed the witch, to honor the giant, To mind, to heed, to find, to think, to teach, to join, To go to the Festival! Into the woods, Into the woods, Into the woods, Then out of the woods-- And happy ever after! Cinderella: I wish...
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Post by tichtich on Apr 14, 2006 9:00:14 GMT -5
Hi, tichtich! Welcome to the S-cubed with your first official post, and all! Thanks, though actually it was my second! This seems like a very friendly place, so I'll try to join in a bit more.
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Post by Rachael on Apr 14, 2006 9:12:55 GMT -5
Hey, guys, there's also this:
BUFFY: That's all in the past now. Mom's out of the woods, and I'm here with you. That's all that matters.
The title refers also to the fact that Buffy's mom is supposedly "out of the woods", meaning she's safe, when we all know that's really not true. In fact, complications from the surgery are actually what kill her in the end, so she's really entering into a darker wood, without realizing it.
And more generally, it refers to the fact that, although stuff looks bright right now, it isn't, despite what the characters might think, because they're on their way out into the sun...it's because what's ahead (for everyone) is darker.
Joyce will die, Dawn will nearly be kidnapped and sacrificed to stop the end of the world, Buffy will realize that she's willing to die to save the world, but she isn't willing to sacrifice Dawn, Giles will realize (probably not for the first time) that he IS willing to sacrifice an innocent to save the world, and then he'll actually do it - kill a relatively innocent human in cold blood. Tara will have her mind sucked away.
In the long run, the only one who's better off, who's "out of the woods" after this episode, is Riley.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 14, 2006 9:35:28 GMT -5
Thanks for your reply, Spring. I think the reason this episode in particular is called "Into the Woods" is because it's the one where Buffy, actually and metaphorically, "lets Riley fly." From here on in, she's going to be moving away from "Riley" - her attempt to hang on to normalcy and good-girlness and her idealized version of life and love (childhood, black-and-white, good guys vs bad guys), her attempt to stay in the sunshine despite her wicked (but denied) attraction to the darkness - and toward "Spike" (her dark side). She officially begins her exploration of the "woods" - something she's never going to do while holding Riley's hand. Riley can't be her guide or companion through the woods - she has to let go of his hand to start through the woods in earnest. As Spike mentions in this episode, it's just not in Riley. He can't be the one to help Buffy explore, accept, acknowledge, integrate her dark side (part of coming of age, the whole growth to a full, responsible adulthood and accepting the very unideal world as it is, etc). I think you're right that Buffy's journey into the woods is one of self-exploration. But I'm not sure that the initial impetus for that journey is her split from Riley. I don't think the initial impetus for her journey is the split from Riley either. She's flirting with "the woods" way before that. I just think the split from Riley represents breaking a "final tie" and truly starting "into the woods" in earnest. I don't think the split from Riley represents Buffy's "first step into the woods." Not by any means - as you say. I think it represents truly beginning the journey in earnest - not just the flirting and the back and forth. She would have needed a more mature Riley to have a more mature relationship with him . . . and she needed to be a more mature Buffy . . . and this whole "into the woods, exploration of her dark side" represented in large part through Spike . . . I just see it as a dramatization of what we all go through, in our journey to adulthood, in different ways. We have to accept and understand and learn to love and appreciate and therefore harness and use and control, our own darkness. And we have to accept that there is darkness in the world, and in everyone we know and love. Here is the song from "Wizard of Oz" that refers to Dorothy's journey "into the woods" (she has to go through the woods on the yellow brick road): You're out of the woods You're out of the dark You're out of the night Step into the sun Step into the light Keep straight ahead for The most glorious place On the face Of the earth or the sky Hold onto your breath Hold onto your heart Hold onto your hope March up to the gate And bid it open-- You're out of the woods You're out of the dark You're out of the night Step into the sun Step into the light March up to the gate And bid it open!--open!
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 14, 2006 9:39:52 GMT -5
Hey, guys, there's also this: BUFFY: That's all in the past now. Mom's out of the woods, and I'm here with you. That's all that matters.The title refers also to the fact that Buffy's mom is supposedly "out of the woods", meaning she's safe, when we all know that's really not true. In fact, complications from the surgery are actually what kill her in the end, so she's really entering into a darker wood, without realizing it. And more generally, it refers to the fact that, although stuff looks bright right now, it isn't, despite what the characters might think, because they're on their way out into the sun...it's because what's ahead (for everyone) is darker. Joyce will die, Dawn will nearly be kidnapped and sacrificed to stop the end of the world, Buffy will realize that she's willing to die to save the world, but she isn't willing to sacrifice Dawn, Giles will realize (probably not for the first time) that he IS willing to sacrifice an innocent to save the world, and then he'll actually do it - kill a relatively innocent human in cold blood. Tara will have her mind sucked away. In the long run, the only one who's better off, who's "out of the woods" after this episode, is Riley. Good catch, and so true! Buffy doesn't start coming "out of the woods," until we literally see her "climbing out of a grave" at the Season 6 finale. It is really about all the characters, but centers on Buffy. Spike is Buffy's guide "through the dark woods" so she can emerge in the light; Buffy is Spike's guide to the light; Anya & Xander much the same story, in a different way; Tara & Willow also, in yet another way . . . and of course "Mom & Dad" (Joyce & Giles) are out of the picture, in some ways, "forcing" the journey to adulthood - the acceptance of responsibility, of the real world and it's good and bad . . .yada, yada, yada . . .
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Post by Lola m on Apr 14, 2006 22:13:48 GMT -5
Hey, guys, there's also this: BUFFY: That's all in the past now. Mom's out of the woods, and I'm here with you. That's all that matters.The title refers also to the fact that Buffy's mom is supposedly "out of the woods", meaning she's safe, when we all know that's really not true. In fact, complications from the surgery are actually what kill her in the end, so she's really entering into a darker wood, without realizing it. And more generally, it refers to the fact that, although stuff looks bright right now, it isn't, despite what the characters might think, because they're on their way out into the sun...it's because what's ahead (for everyone) is darker. Joyce will die, Dawn will nearly be kidnapped and sacrificed to stop the end of the world, Buffy will realize that she's willing to die to save the world, but she isn't willing to sacrifice Dawn, Giles will realize (probably not for the first time) that he IS willing to sacrifice an innocent to save the world, and then he'll actually do it - kill a relatively innocent human in cold blood. Tara will have her mind sucked away. In the long run, the only one who's better off, who's "out of the woods" after this episode, is Riley. Good catch, and so true! Buffy doesn't start coming "out of the woods," until we literally see her "climbing out of a grave" at the Season 6 finale. It is really about all the characters, but centers on Buffy. Spike is Buffy's guide "through the dark woods" so she can emerge in the light; Buffy is Spike's guide to the light; Anya & Xander much the same story, in a different way; Tara & Willow also, in yet another way . . . and of course "Mom & Dad" (Joyce & Giles) are out of the picture, in some ways, "forcing" the journey to adulthood - the acceptance of responsibility, of the real world and it's good and bad . . .yada, yada, yada . . . Gosh! I'm loving all this discussion - Sondheim, Oz - Rachael, thanks for the "mom's out of the woods" quote. Also, welcome tichtich - glad to see ya here. #wavey#
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Post by tichtich on Apr 15, 2006 3:35:35 GMT -5
Well, I've just watched the next episode, "Triangle". It was quite a relief to see a more comic episode after several very gloomy ones! Lots of wholesome Spike and Anya goodness. I especially loved Spike practising giving a box of chocolates to Buffy. I didn't recall this episode at all. Perhaps I missed it on TV. Anyway, it was as good as watching it for the first time. Following on from the discussion above, it seemed a little strange to have such a light episode after we have supposedly just gone "Into the Woods". Even when Buffy was dealing with her feelings for Riley, it was handled in a light-hearted way--breaking into exaggerated weeping at the possibility that Xander and Anya might break up. In fact, I found this a little too comical for my taste. Of course, I know this light interlude isn't going to last long. :-( I've now got several episodes of Angel scheduled before I come back to Buffy again. More gloom I suppose...
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 15, 2006 8:11:10 GMT -5
Well, I've just watched the next episode, "Triangle". It was quite a relief to see a more comic episode after several very gloomy ones! Lots of wholesome Spike and Anya goodness. I especially loved Spike practising giving a box of chocolates to Buffy. I didn't recall this episode at all. Perhaps I missed it on TV. Anyway, it was as good as watching it for the first time. Following on from the discussion above, it seemed a little strange to have such a light episode after we have supposedly just gone "Into the Woods". Even when Buffy was dealing with her feelings for Riley, it was handled in a light-hearted way--breaking into exaggerated weeping at the possibility that Xander and Anya might break up. In fact, I found this a little too comical for my taste. Of course, I know this light interlude isn't going to last long. :-( I've now got several episodes of Angel scheduled before I come back to Buffy again. More gloom I suppose... Hi, again! If you're interested, you can read my take on how the lighthearted "Triangle" ep fits into the "Into the Woods" theme, by going here: www.soulfulspike.com/spikecentricity/TriangleReview-rev1.htm#heading1And thanks for reviving this discussion a bit. Interesting thoughts from all!
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Post by fish1941 on May 31, 2007 19:53:25 GMT -5
I don't think that Riley had a problem in dealing with strength in women. Or else he would have never married someone like Sam.
I think that Riley had a problem with Buffy regarding him as someone who is weaker and incapable of fighting demons. Buffy started treating him as fine china or someone who needed protection. I found it ludicrous that she wanted the Scoobies to accompany him on patrol in "Fool For Love", when he really didn't need them around. Supernaturally strong or not, Riley was also an experienced demon hunter.
But Riley had made his mistakes. He had failed to communicate his growing frustration with Buffy treating him like china. And he had failed to express his fears that she no longer loved him or consider him revelant.
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Post by Onjel on May 31, 2007 20:50:25 GMT -5
I don't think that Riley had a problem in dealing with strength in women. Or else he would have never married someone like Sam. I think that Riley had a problem with Buffy regarding him as someone who is weaker and incapable of fighting demons. Buffy started treating him as fine china or someone who needed protection. I found it ludicrous that she wanted the Scoobies to accompany him on patrol in "Fool For Love", when he really didn't need them around. Supernaturally strong or not, Riley was also an experienced demon hunter. But Riley had made his mistakes. He had failed to communicate his growing frustration with Buffy treating him like china. And he had failed to express his fears that she no longer loved him or consider him revelant. I agree with you. Riley wouldn't have married Sam if he had a problem with strong women and that he did have a problem with Buffy trying to protect him. But, Buffy isn't just a strong woman. She's a preternaturally strong woman. A "superhero". I'm not sure Riley was equipped to deal with a woman stronger than he. Not just strong, but stronger. But you make valid points about Buffy's mistakes and his failure to communicate, and I agree with those completely.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jun 1, 2007 6:25:00 GMT -5
I don't think that Riley had a problem in dealing with strength in women. Or else he would have never married someone like Sam. I think that Riley had a problem with Buffy regarding him as someone who is weaker and incapable of fighting demons. Buffy started treating him as fine china or someone who needed protection. I found it ludicrous that she wanted the Scoobies to accompany him on patrol in "Fool For Love", when he really didn't need them around. Supernaturally strong or not, Riley was also an experienced demon hunter. But Riley had made his mistakes. He had failed to communicate his growing frustration with Buffy treating him like china. And he had failed to express his fears that she no longer loved him or consider him revelant. I agree with you. Riley wouldn't have married Sam if he had a problem with strong women and that he did have a problem with Buffy trying to protect him. But, Buffy isn't just a strong woman. She's a preternaturally strong woman. A "superhero". I'm not sure Riley was equipped to deal with a woman stronger than he. Not just strong, but stronger. But you make valid points about Buffy's mistakes and his failure to communicate, and I agree with those completely. Yes - I feel the same way. I agree that Riley was fine with strong women. Just fine - better than fine. I think Riley liked strength in a woman. But, I do think he had a problem with a woman being stronger than he was. That's a different thing. Buffy was stronger than Riley; Sam wasn't. Definitely, this was, by no means, the only problem in their relationship. But it was one of the reasons (among several), IMO, that it couldn't work between Buffy & Riley - and one of the reasons explored in this episode.
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Post by fish1941 on Jun 1, 2007 21:34:39 GMT -5
Why would Riley have such a big problem with Buffy being stronger than him in Season 5 and not in Season 4? I noticed that he seemed a bit taken aback when she first proved that she was stronger in some S4 episode. But he seemed to have eventually accepted it.
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