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Post by SpringSummers on Jun 1, 2007 22:21:56 GMT -5
Why would Riley have such a big problem with Buffy being stronger than him in Season 5 and not in Season 4? I noticed that he seemed a bit taken aback when she first proved that she was stronger in some S4 episode. But he seemed to have eventually accepted it. There's definitely a lot of different, legit ways to look at this. My opinion is that Riley had a lot of trouble with Buffy being stronger than him. I don't agree that he seemed to eventually accept it; my view is that he never truly accepted it. In "Out of My Mind," He couldn't believe that Buffy could be OK with him not having super-powers after he lost some of the extra-strength he got from whatever juice Walsh was giving him, causing Buffy to insist that she was OK with it. And right in this episode he and Buffy have this exchange: BUFFY: “And that’s what this is really about, isn’t it? You can’t handle the fact that I’m stronger than you.” RILEY: “It’s hard sometimes, yeah. But that’s not it.” "It's hard sometimes, yeah." Huh. I wonder what's so hard about it? I can't say I really understand WHY Riley finds it hard, but he's admitting that he does find it hard. He may dismiss that as insignificant, saying "But that's not it," but I sure don't dismiss it as insignificant. When your boyfriend finds it hard to accept something significant about you - well, how's that going to work out? How is Buffy supposed to be OK with the idea that Riley "finds it hard sometimes" that she's The Slayer, when being The Slayer is such a big part of who she is? Of course, Riley's going on here to say that there are other problems, and I certainly agree with him - it's not the ONLY problem, not at all. But it's all intertwined and intermingled, for me. Kind of a vicious circle type thing. What can I say? It's very subjective, and if you read my analysis, you know that I'm not even pretending to be objective here. I just don't get men who "find it hard" to accept a woman besting them in some area. I don't get it. I don't get it, I don't get it. It's kind of a pet peeve of mine. I want my talents and strengths to be accepted - admired, even - without reservation, by my significant other. If he can't do that, then he's not for me. It's not OK with me, for him to "find it hard sometimes." I can't even imagine finding it "hard sometimes" to accept some talent or strength of my boyfriend's, because I wasn't as good as he was at it. I would hope that I would just admire him and be proud of him and support him in it. Did I mention that I'm not objective on this topic? Anyhow, that's the scoop on how I see this (that, along with what you can read in the analysis).
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Jun 2, 2007 9:09:31 GMT -5
I've thought about the issue of Buffy's superhuman strength and how it affects Riley's view of her. Buffy's physical image is that of a very petite, pretty girl. The fact that she can kick any human man's ass into next Tuesday is not visually apparent. When Riley first meets Buffy he sees only the surface and his (very natural) instinct is to protect her. Let's face it, in Sunnydale there's a lot to be protected from. However, Riley has fallen for the one woman who will NOT see him as protector/hero, however much she admires, respects and, in her own way, loves him. She is actually the one woman who IS the protector/hero whose (very natural) instinct will be to protect HIM.
Underneath his well-educated exterior Riley is really very old-fashioned in some of his views of male/female relations. He comes from a conservative small town, he is physically very imposing, he is a trained soldier and his real job is the killing and/or subduing of very dangerous creatures that threaten the populace at large. Enter tiny, pretty Buffy whose kill ratio is many times higher than his--or anyone he knows--despite her lack of techno-gadgets, large numbers of backup, military training or Federal funding. Initially this is both intriguing and sexy.
In the long run, not so much.
After a while the novelty of dating a superhero begins eating away at Riley's self-image. He has built himself a persona of The Warrior. He is Conan, Superman, Beowulf and Tarzan. True, Riley likes smart, capable women who can take care of themselves. He just doesn't like them to be smarter, more capable or better able to take care of themselves than he is. Consider who he eventually marries. Sam could be viewed as Buffy minus the superstrength. She is also beautiful, smart, sexy and a helluva fighter. However, she is NOT stronger than Riley, or faster or a better warrior. She needs protecting--at least sometimes. She needs him.
Riley is modern enough to like strong women. Riley is not modern eough to like Buffy-strong women. Riley likes to be needed. And that is the one thing Buffy could not give him.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jun 2, 2007 11:39:55 GMT -5
I've thought about the issue of Buffy's superhuman strength and how it affects Riley's view of her. Buffy's physical image is that of a very petite, pretty girl. The fact that she can kick any human man's ass into next Tuesday is not visually apparent. When Riley first meets Buffy he sees only the surface and his (very natural) instinct is to protect her. Let's face it, in Sunnydale there's a lot to be protected from. However, Riley has fallen for the one woman who will NOT see him as protector/hero, however much she admires, respects and, in her own way, loves him. She is actually the one woman who IS the protector/hero whose (very natural) instinct will be to protect HIM. Underneath his well-educated exterior Riley is really very old-fashioned in some of his views of male/female relations. He comes from a conservative small town, he is physically very imposing, he is a trained soldier and his real job is the killing and/or subduing of very dangerous creatures that threaten the populace at large. Enter tiny, pretty Buffy whose kill ratio is many times higher than his--or anyone he knows--despite her lack of techno-gadgets, large numbers of backup, military training or Federal funding. Initially this is both intriguing and sexy. In the long run, not so much. After a while the novelty of dating a superhero begins eating away at Riley's self-image. He has built himself a persona of The Warrior. He is Conan, Superman, Beowulf and Tarzan. True, Riley likes smart, capable women who can take care of themselves. He just doesn't like them to be smarter, more capable or better able to take care of themselves than he is. Consider who he eventually marries. Sam could be viewed as Buffy minus the superstrength. She is also beautiful, smart, sexy and a helluva fighter. However, she is NOT stronger than Riley, or faster or a better warrior. She needs protecting--at least sometimes. She needs him. Riley is modern enough to like strong women. Riley is not modern eough to like Buffy-strong women. Riley likes to be needed. And that is the one thing Buffy could not give him.
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Post by Onjel on Jun 3, 2007 12:18:11 GMT -5
Why would Riley have such a big problem with Buffy being stronger than him in Season 5 and not in Season 4? I noticed that he seemed a bit taken aback when she first proved that she was stronger in some S4 episode. But he seemed to have eventually accepted it. In addition to all that Spring and Diane said, remember, Riley stopped being fed the superpower supplements/drugs when Professor Walsh died and he went AWoL. Up until then, he felt that he and Buffy were pretty close in strength so the extent of her strength was easier for him to ignore. Once he was again just a normal guy in good fighting shape, it became impossible for him to overlook Buffy's super power. I still agree with what you said and think that Diane and Spring summed all our positions up perfectly. ;D
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Jun 4, 2007 11:27:07 GMT -5
I've thought about the issue of Buffy's superhuman strength and how it affects Riley's view of her. Buffy's physical image is that of a very petite, pretty girl. The fact that she can kick any human man's ass into next Tuesday is not visually apparent. When Riley first meets Buffy he sees only the surface and his (very natural) instinct is to protect her. Let's face it, in Sunnydale there's a lot to be protected from. However, Riley has fallen for the one woman who will NOT see him as protector/hero, however much she admires, respects and, in her own way, loves him. She is actually the one woman who IS the protector/hero whose (very natural) instinct will be to protect HIM. Underneath his well-educated exterior Riley is really very old-fashioned in some of his views of male/female relations. He comes from a conservative small town, he is physically very imposing, he is a trained soldier and his real job is the killing and/or subduing of very dangerous creatures that threaten the populace at large. Enter tiny, pretty Buffy whose kill ratio is many times higher than his--or anyone he knows--despite her lack of techno-gadgets, large numbers of backup, military training or Federal funding. Initially this is both intriguing and sexy. In the long run, not so much. After a while the novelty of dating a superhero begins eating away at Riley's self-image. He has built himself a persona of The Warrior. He is Conan, Superman, Beowulf and Tarzan. True, Riley likes smart, capable women who can take care of themselves. He just doesn't like them to be smarter, more capable or better able to take care of themselves than he is. Consider who he eventually marries. Sam could be viewed as Buffy minus the superstrength. She is also beautiful, smart, sexy and a helluva fighter. However, she is NOT stronger than Riley, or faster or a better warrior. She needs protecting--at least sometimes. She needs him. Riley is modern enough to like strong women. Riley is not modern eough to like Buffy-strong women. Riley likes to be needed. And that is the one thing Buffy could not give him. I love you too.
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Jun 4, 2007 11:34:59 GMT -5
Why would Riley have such a big problem with Buffy being stronger than him in Season 5 and not in Season 4? I noticed that he seemed a bit taken aback when she first proved that she was stronger in some S4 episode. But he seemed to have eventually accepted it. In addition to all that Spring and Diane said, remember, Riley stopped being fed the superpower supplements/drugs when Professor Walsh died and he went AWoL. Up until then, he felt that he and Buffy were pretty close in strength so the extent of her strength was easier for him to ignore. Once he was again just a normal guy in good fighting shape, it became impossible for him to overlook Buffy's super power. I still agree with what you said and think that Diane and Spring summed all our positions up perfectly. ;D I agree with your observation totally. I might add that I believe the Buffy/Riley breakup would have occurred anyway. Even with the chemical enhancement Riley still had only about half Buffy's strength. Recall their first sparring when Buffy agrees to unleash her full strength and kicks Riley clear across the training room--and then later admits to Willow that she was still holding back. Riley, still chemically enhanced at this tme, also has little or none of her speed, agility or gymnastic ability. He's a tank, she's a fighter jet. His enhanced physical strength was probably slightly less than Spike's--although he never knew an unchipped Spike for us to find out for sure. It might have taken longer, but it still would have been inevitable.
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Post by Onjel on Jun 4, 2007 13:14:41 GMT -5
In addition to all that Spring and Diane said, remember, Riley stopped being fed the superpower supplements/drugs when Professor Walsh died and he went AWoL. Up until then, he felt that he and Buffy were pretty close in strength so the extent of her strength was easier for him to ignore. Once he was again just a normal guy in good fighting shape, it became impossible for him to overlook Buffy's super power. I still agree with what you said and think that Diane and Spring summed all our positions up perfectly. ;D I agree with your observation totally. I might add that I believe the Buffy/Riley breakup would have occurred anyway. Even with the chemical enhancement Riley still had only about half Buffy's strength. Recall their first sparring when Buffy agrees to unleash her full strength and kicks Riley clear across the training room--and then later admits to Willow that she was still holding back. Riley, still chemically enhanced at this tme, also has little or none of her speed, agility or gymnastic ability. He's a tank, she's a fighter jet. His enhanced physical strength was probably slightly less than Spike's--although he never knew an unchipped Spike for us to find out for sure. It might have taken longer, but it still would have been inevitable. I completely agree with this, Diane.
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Post by fish1941 on Sept 5, 2007 21:24:31 GMT -5
I have a hard time believing that the main reason for the destruction of Buffy and Riley's relationship was because Riley had great difficulty in dealing with Buffy's Slayer strength. I find this idea very hard to accept.
I especially find this hard to accept, considering Buffy's tendency to treat Riley like a fragile piece of china following the episode, "Out of My Mind", when he finally lost his extra strength. If Riley could not deal with Buffy's Slayer strength then I would say that this may have came from her own tendency to be over-protective toward him.
I get the feeling that many are trying to dismiss Riley as some cliched version of a sexist White American male Protestant from the Midwest. Or that many are trying to dismiss him as the very person that Spike had described him as . . . namely "white bread".
I believe that Riley had been telling the truth. He and Buffy had bigger issues than his loss of strength and her Slayer powers. For example, there was their inability to communicate with each other, Riley's inability to deal with Buffy's past relationship with Angel, Buffy's delusion that Riley was her ticket to a "normal relationship", and Buffy's tendency to be overprotective toward Riley, when he did not need to be treated in such a manner. I mean really . . . sending the Scoobies to accompany him on a vamp hunt in "Fool For Love"? Did Buffy honestly believe that they could help him? They were so ineffectual.
In the analysis of "Into the Woods", I came upon this passage:
I found the above passage very disturbing. It almost reeked of misandry. Why was it necessary to describe men and women in such a one-dimensional manner? Why do people believe that every individual can be judged based upon his/her gender, race, religious beliefs, nationality or any other superficial description? In fact, I am beginning to believe that the above passage was nothing more than a setup to describe Riley as some latent sexist unable to deal with his stronger girlfriend . . . and nothing else.
Riley was more than that. And just because the series was about feminist power is not an excuse to dismiss male characters like Riley as something close to a one-dimensional sexist.
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Post by Shan on Sept 5, 2007 22:20:38 GMT -5
I have a hard time believing that the main reason for the destruction of Buffy and Riley's relationship was because Riley had great difficulty in dealing with Buffy's Slayer strength. I find this idea very hard to accept. I especially find this hard to accept, considering Buffy's tendency to treat Riley like a fragile piece of china following the episode, "Out of My Mind", when he finally lost his extra strength. If Riley could not deal with Buffy's Slayer strength then I would say that this may have came from her own tendency to be over-protective toward him. I get the feeling that many are trying to dismiss Riley as some cliched version of a sexist White American male Protestant from the Midwest. Or that many are trying to dismiss him as the very person that Spike had described him as . . . namely "white bread". I believe that Riley had been telling the truth. He and Buffy had bigger issues than his loss of strength and her Slayer powers. For example, there was their inability to communicate with each other, Riley's inability to deal with Buffy's past relationship with Angel, Buffy's delusion that Riley was her ticket to a "normal relationship", and Buffy's tendency to be overprotective toward Riley, when he did not need to be treated in such a manner. I mean really . . . sending the Scoobies to accompany him on a vamp hunt in "Fool For Love"? Did Buffy honestly believe that they could help him? They were so ineffectual. In the analysis of "Into the Woods", I came upon this passage: I found the above passage very disturbing. It almost reeked of misandry. Why was it necessary to describe men and women in such a one-dimensional manner? Why do people believe that every individual can be judged based upon his/her gender, race, religious beliefs, nationality or any other superficial description? In fact, I am beginning to believe that the above passage was nothing more than a setup to describe Riley as some latent sexist unable to deal with his stronger girlfriend . . . and nothing else. Riley was more than that. And just because the series was about feminist power is not an excuse to dismiss male characters like Riley as something close to a one-dimensional sexist. Why do YOU think they broke up? Because they didn't communicate well? Why do YOU think they didn't communicate well?
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 6, 2007 0:04:14 GMT -5
I have a hard time believing that the main reason for the destruction of Buffy and Riley's relationship was because Riley had great difficulty in dealing with Buffy's Slayer strength. I find this idea very hard to accept. I especially find this hard to accept, considering Buffy's tendency to treat Riley like a fragile piece of china following the episode, "Out of My Mind", when he finally lost his extra strength. If Riley could not deal with Buffy's Slayer strength then I would say that this may have came from her own tendency to be over-protective toward him. I get the feeling that many are trying to dismiss Riley as some cliched version of a sexist White American male Protestant from the Midwest. Or that many are trying to dismiss him as the very person that Spike had described him as . . . namely "white bread". I believe that Riley had been telling the truth. He and Buffy had bigger issues than his loss of strength and her Slayer powers. For example, there was their inability to communicate with each other, Riley's inability to deal with Buffy's past relationship with Angel, Buffy's delusion that Riley was her ticket to a "normal relationship", and Buffy's tendency to be overprotective toward Riley, when he did not need to be treated in such a manner. I mean really . . . sending the Scoobies to accompany him on a vamp hunt in "Fool For Love"? Did Buffy honestly believe that they could help him? They were so ineffectual. In the analysis of "Into the Woods", I came upon this passage: I found the above passage very disturbing. It almost reeked of misandry. Why was it necessary to describe men and women in such a one-dimensional manner? Why do people believe that every individual can be judged based upon his/her gender, race, religious beliefs, nationality or any other superficial description? In fact, I am beginning to believe that the above passage was nothing more than a setup to describe Riley as some latent sexist unable to deal with his stronger girlfriend . . . and nothing else. Riley was more than that. And just because the series was about feminist power is not an excuse to dismiss male characters like Riley as something close to a one-dimensional sexist. Hi, fish. I am the person who wrote the analysis of this episode. You have completely misunderstood me. But I have nothing to say on the topics you mention, beyond what I have already written in my analysis. Your conclusions do not resemble what I was trying to convey, but the analysis represents the best I can do to express myself clearly on these topics. So - if you re-read the analysis, and still come to the same conclusions, then there's really nothing left for me to say except: Thanks for reading - twice!
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Post by Onjel on Sept 6, 2007 9:05:03 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I see no evidence of misandry in Spring's analysis. My take on the whole "the breakup was inevitable" is that Buffy really doesn't want what is commonly thought of as normal. Deep down she wants and needs a relationship that is geared for her and her alone; not someone else's idea of what her relationship or who her chosen partner should be. Willow went for it with Tara. It's time Buffy realized that it's okay to go for what she wants, however "abnormal" it may be. She doesn't get there in this episode, but I think the seed has been planted that "normal" isn't where it's at for her. "Normal" isn't where it's at for any of the Scoobies. It's one of the reasons I found myself so irritated at the gang's refusal to accept Spike (whether he be temporary or permanent) as a good counterpart to Buffy and a good friend/lover/partner, whatever, for her.
Just babbling, and rather inchoherent at the moment, but that's what came to mind this morning. Maybe more later when I can formulate my thoughts better.
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Post by Karen on Sept 6, 2007 10:38:13 GMT -5
Interesting discussion!
My take on the whole Riley thing was that he believed Buffy didn't really, truly love/need him on the same emotional level that he loved her. (He even told Xander this - and I believe he is partially right.)
I don't mean needed him in the sense of needing to be protected, but needed him in an emotional way, although I get the sense that she desperately wanted to need him.
Riley also felt that he didn't measure up to Angel - but that sometimes happens to rebound guys. They will compare themselves to former lover(s). This made him act insecure around Buffy at times, and second guess her reactions to him.
Buffy was not in a place in her life to trust another man as completely as she should have in order for their love to be whole. I know a lot of fans thought that Riley's reaction to Buffy not calling her when her mom fell ill was whining on his part, but in a serious/loving relationship, isn't that what most of us would have done - called our significant other to be there for support?
I know I would've felt hurt if someone I loved had totally left me out of the loop in that situation. But that's just me - and that was Riley.
And like Buffy told Riley - that was her, and if he couldn't love the her that she was, then it wasn't going to work. And it didn't work in the end.
If Buffy would've been able to stop Riley from leaving, they might have been able to work it out, because it did seem to me that she realized what she was losing - but sometimes you just can't force yourself to feel what you think it is you should feel.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Sept 6, 2007 11:09:03 GMT -5
I do disagree with Spring's assertion here, that "needing to be needed" is a characteristic of men, as opposed to (or more than) women. I find Spring's assertions problematic, but I wouldn't go so far as to call them misandry.
While there are differences between the sexes, this is not one of them. In my experience, I have witnessed just as many needy men as needy women, and just as many needing to be needed men as women. Nor do I feel that these traits is necessarily a bad thing, unless it gets taken to an extreme, which it does not in Riley's or Xander's case, IMHO. Relationships are in part based on the fulfilling the needs of oneself and the needs of others. The critical thing is that the participants in the relationship complement each other, and that was the crux of Riley and Buffy's problem. Their problem, not just Riley's.
Having said that, I must also disagree that Spring reduces Riley to a one note character. Both in this analysis, and all those of the episodes in Riley's arc, Spring acknowledges and analyses him as a whole character, as thoroughly as she does for any other.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Sept 6, 2007 11:19:22 GMT -5
Interesting discussion! My take on the whole Riley thing was that he believed Buffy didn't really, truly love/need him on the same emotional level that he loved her. (He even told Xander this - and I believe he is partially right.) I don't mean needed him in the sense of needing to be protected, but needed him in an emotional way, although I get the sense that she desperately wanted to need him. Riley also felt that he didn't measure up to Angel - but that sometimes happens to rebound guys. They will compare themselves to former lover(s). This made him act insecure around Buffy at times, and second guess her reactions to him. Buffy was not in a place in her life to trust another man as completely as she should have in order for their love to be whole. I know a lot of fans thought that Riley's reaction to Buffy not calling her when her mom fell ill was whining on his part, but in a serious/loving relationship, isn't that what most of us would have done - called our significant other to be there for support? I know I would've felt hurt if someone I loved had totally left me out of the loop in that situation. But that's just me - and that was Riley. And like Buffy told Riley - that was her, and if he couldn't love the her that she was, then it wasn't going to work. And it didn't work in the end. If Buffy would've been able to stop Riley from leaving, they might have been able to work it out, because it did seem to me that she realized what she was losing - but sometimes you just can't force yourself to feel what you think it is you should feel. Eetah. I personally identify more with Riley in their break up, but it's true that neither of them handled the situation perfectly. The biggest problem I have with Buffy in this is her whole cluelessness (either feigned or genuine) that she and Riley were even having problems that needed to be discussed. And no, Joyce's illness doesn't excuse that much lack of awareness, in my book.
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Lola cant spare time to log in
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Post by Lola cant spare time to log in on Sept 6, 2007 12:58:46 GMT -5
Interesting discussion! My take on the whole Riley thing was that he believed Buffy didn't really, truly love/need him on the same emotional level that he loved her. (He even told Xander this - and I believe he is partially right.) **nods** I see it this way too. That, in the end, Buffy couldn't love Riley the way he wanted to be loved by her. And, to some extent, Riley couldn't love Buffy in the way she wanted to be loved by him. It almost makes me think of the novel and movie "Ordinary People", where the therapist talks to the kid about the difference between his mother not loving him and his mother not loving him the way he wants his mother to love him. (Granted, that is a much harder situation to deal with, considering the extra issues around a mother and child relationship.) Riley, I think, wanted to be an equal partner in the slaying/demon hunting thing. Which is an understandable desire and viewpoint. However, he was never going to be a supernatural slayer, and Buffy was never going to not remember that. Buffy, I think, wanted (or thought she wanted, actually, which is a whole 'nother thing) a boyfriend who would fit with her desire to "live a normal life". And she also has a justifiable worry about his safety once he was no longer super-strong guy. She's never going to be able to turn that off, because she is called to help protect people and therefore, that is also an understandable desire and viewpoint. But Riley has his own feelings about his mission to help people and he's never going to forget that either. Yes. I think he wanted her to turn to him more, include him more, ask him to do more for her. Not necessarily strong-arm stuff, but just . . . turn to him more. But Buffy has a deep need to accomplish things, take care of the monster, be the solver of things. So it's not a natural action on her part to go to him for everything. She probably doesn't think of herself that way, but she is simply used to leading the charge into action. **nods** I would have felt hurt, but would have put that aside. But then again, at the stage I am in life now, I also have more experience than Riley to know why these kind of things happen. In crisis, many folks revert to a . . . like a hunker down in the "core family" mode. I've seen it happen at funerals or in times of serious illness. The siblings or family meld together and sometimes spouses (even ones who've been part of the family for years or decades) can get pushed out of some decision making or conversations. Not out of a desire to hurt or exclude, but because they're reacting instinctively to clump together. (This doesn't always happen, but I've see it plenty.) And for Buffy? Dawn and her mom and, to an only slightly lesser degree, Giles and the scoobies, are her core family. **nods** True, honest, sometimes painful communication is likely what would have been needed. And even then, no guarantees. Because, as you point out, sometimes there may be love but not the way that is needed to make this work. And you can't force that or make it happen just 'cuz you want it to.
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