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Post by William the Bloody on Jul 12, 2004 12:00:42 GMT -5
Let the discussion begin!
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Post by LadyDi on Jul 12, 2004 14:19:00 GMT -5
Wow! Imagine my delight at finding not one, but two new analyses. I don't really have anything to add to the discussion as yet, other than "Yippee!"
Will try to come up with something a bit more cogent later.
I do love the scene btwn Spike and Riley in Into the Woods. It's a great set-up for what's to come. Also, Spike copping a feel at the Bronze in Triangle. Opportunistic? Well, yeah.
Still, his plaintive "What's it take?" to Buffy just about breaks my heart. Compare his actions here to souled Angel's feeding off the gunshot victim (in whatever ep of AtS).
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Post by Nickim on Jul 12, 2004 15:40:53 GMT -5
Just a couple thoughts on this one. You mention using food as a substitute for those inner Olaf feelings. "Do you have to be super-religious." In other words: "Do I really have to give up sex?" "How's the food?" In other words: "Have you found some substitute for love and sex?" Food is a very fundamental need, just like love. The problem is we can't truly replace one of those other fundamental needs with another. We can live on bread and water, but who wants to? We think we can live without love, but we won't be happy. I don't know how any of these ramblings relate to this episode, but I'm in a blabby mood--can you tell I've missed the S'cubieboard?  Second thought. Does Spike ever have more than half a Buffy? He has her body in part of Season 6, but not her heart or her soul. He has her heart in in Season 7, but not her body. Interesting that Willow's spell is for Buffy to make sunshine by speaking a magic word. "Not presto, exactly." More like, "Spike!!! I love you." Rays of light, more of that letting your light shine and Dru's prophecy--"you taste like ashes." As always, I loved this analysis. And I love the fact that I'm caught up!!! |
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 13, 2004 5:53:00 GMT -5
Wow! Imagine my delight at finding not one, but two new analyses. I don't really have anything to add to the discussion as yet, other than "Yippee!" Will try to come up with something a bit more cogent later. I do love the scene btwn Spike and Riley in Into the Woods. It's a great set-up for what's to come. Also, Spike copping a feel at the Bronze in Triangle. Opportunistic? Well, yeah. Still, his plaintive "What's it take?" to Buffy just about breaks my heart. Compare his actions here to souled Angel's feeding off the gunshot victim (in whatever ep of AtS). Good to hear from you Lady Di. Yes, do come back and add more if you like! Yes - when it comes to Spike, Triangle really gives us a view into the war being fought inside him. He's a raging monster, bashing the mannequin; he's completely lacking in compassion, telling Olaf babies are at the hospital; he's a total lech, feeling up Buffy when there's a monster to fight and people getting badly hurt. BUT - in the same episode, he's trying hard to figure out how to be a tender lover, he's being very human and friendly with Xander, he's so shy when he first sees Buffy, and he's very kind to the lady who is hurt. I've read complaints about Spike being portrayed "inconsistently" but I don't agree with that. It's all very consistent with what is happening inside Spike, and done just right. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 13, 2004 5:57:46 GMT -5
Just a couple thoughts on this one. You mention using food as a substitute for those inner Olaf feelings. "Do you have to be super-religious." In other words: "Do I really have to give up sex?" "How's the food?" In other words: "Have you found some substitute for love and sex?" Food is a very fundamental need, just like love. The problem is we can't truly replace one of those other fundamental needs with another. We can live on bread and water, but who wants to? We think we can live without love, but we won't be happy. I don't know how any of these ramblings relate to this episode, but I'm in a blabby mood--can you tell I've missed the S'cubieboard? Second thought. Does Spike ever have more than half a Buffy? He has her body in part of Season 6, but not her heart or her soul. He has her heart in in Season 7, but not her body. Interesting that Willow's spell is for Buffy to make sunshine by speaking a magic word. "Not presto, exactly." More like, "Spike!!! I love you." Rays of light, more of that letting your light shine and Dru's prophecy--"you taste like ashes." As always, I loved this analysis. And I love the fact that I'm caught up!!! Thanks, Nicki. You are all caught up? I will work hard to try to get you behind again! HALF-A-BUFFY: I think Spike gets as much of Buffy as she's got to give by the end of Season 7. No one ever really gives away ALL of themselves, I don't think. |
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Post by Kerrie on Jul 15, 2004 15:48:23 GMT -5
Wow Spring!
I particularly liked this review. I was interested in Olaf representing the childish side of the Soobies and the fact that they don't try to kill him or their childish sides, just move him to somewhere safer. I also like the way that at the end of the series it is Olaf's weopon that is used to defeat Glory. Thus, by this analogy it is some aspect of their childhood selves that defeats Glory. I will need some time to think about this (unless you give me the answer). It is an interesting idea.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 15, 2004 20:31:02 GMT -5
Wow Spring! I particularly liked this review. I was interested in Olaf representing the childish side of the Soobies and the fact that they don't try to kill him or their childish sides, just move him to somewhere safer. I also like the way that at the end of the series it is Olaf's weopon that is used to defeat Glory. Thus, by this analogy it is some aspect of their childhood selves that defeats Glory. I will need some time to think about this (unless you give me the answer). It is an interesting idea. Thanks, Kerrie. I'll probably give this more thought when I get to analyzing the finale of Season 5, but my feeling right now is when it comes to our "Olafs" we aren't meant to kill him or send him away. We're meant to face him and accept him and get him under control . . . harness his power to the good. I don't think of Olaf as representing our childish selves so much as representingour basic, instinctual needs and desires. Of course those two things are interrelated, and I can see why you'd call him a "childish self." I dont' think we are meant to "grow out of" our Olaf. A strong, healthy Olaf is present in the adult. We can't get rid of him - he's our basic desires for food, drink sex, etc. We can't live without him. We have to learn how to control him - when to hold him back, when to let him loose a little, or a lot, etc. I think that is part of growing up. Anyhow, I think you are right that it is significant that Olaf's weapon will come in handy in the fight against Glory, and I'll probably have a clearer idea just how I think it is significant when I get to the finale. Which it looks like I might actually manage to do. . . As always, thanks for your encouraging words. I really do need the feedback to keep a-going! I have started Checkpoint and hope to have it to Vlad by Monday. |
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Post by Kerrie on Jul 16, 2004 5:19:10 GMT -5
I am not sure where I should put this (this ep or the previous ep), but I have been thinking about Anya's jealousy. I have suddenly remembered that Agatha Christie's character, Miss Marple, claimed that people were usually jealous because they sensed that they were not loved; that they were somehow second-best or a charity case. It seems to me that this could be true for Anya. It was not just raging insecurity that made her jealous of Xander, but her unconscious knowledge that Xander did not love her like she wanted.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 16, 2004 5:51:41 GMT -5
I am not sure where I should put this (this ep or the previous ep), but I have been thinking about Anya's jealousy. I have suddenly remembered that Agatha Christie's character, Miss Marple, claimed that people were usually jealous because they sensed that they were not loved; that they were somehow second-best or a charity case. It seems to me that this could be true for Anya. It was not just raging insecurity that made her jealous of Xander, but her unconscious knowledge that Xander did not love her like she wanted. I do think that Anya does know that Xander doesn't love her as completely as she wants him to. I always thought that was the undercurrent in the line she sings to him in OMWF: "When things get rough he, Just hides behind his Buffy, Now see he's getting huffy, 'cause he knows that I know." I would add that Anya's raging insecurities, and not feeling loved, and being jealous, are inextricably related to Xander not loving her as much as he should - i.e., Xander's inability to love Anya completely adds fuel to the fire of her raging insecurities and jealousy; Anya's raging insecurities and jealousy help insure that Xander cannot fully love her. Also, Xander is full of his own raging insecurities, and worries that he is not worthy or capable of receiving or providing true love. It's a whole big circley thing, and it gets hard to tell whether the chicken or the egg came first. I like Anya & Xander as a couple, in so far that I thought they ended up being good for each other in the long run, much like Buffy & Spike. Well, Anya didn't get to enjoy her newfound confidence and sense of self for very long. |
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Post by Lola m on Jul 18, 2004 19:44:00 GMT -5
I should warn everybody up front that this is a favorite episode of mine – so I have an excess of opinions about it. I mean, first we have such funny funnies in here. From Buffy and the nun to the Xander and Spike comedy duo (heck, every single scene that takes place at the Bronze is just a gem) to the Willow and Anya road show. Funny, funny, funny. But like most funny episodes, there is soooo much important stuff going on too. As also as usual, so much in this funny episode is stuff that will be seen to be vital in hindsight. The Willow behaviors you mention, for example. With her “Giles away, Willow will play” attitude. Lines like “it’s easy!” and “it’s a good thing and if it doesn’t work out, Giles doesn’t have to know” tell us a lot about her future direction. Interesting to note that when it comes to fixing blame about releasing Olaf she first tries to spread the blame (somewhat accurately) to include Anya and her, and then segues into shifting the blame (wrongly) entirely onto Anya. We can even see the beginning of Tara’s discomfort with her actions; telling her maybe they should stop working on the spell. But it’s not just the magic that Tara is unhappy about. When Willow is imitating Anya and being really rather sarcastic and snotty – not a good look on Tara’s face. She really didn’t like that. Like you said, both Willow and Spike give us a taste of what season 6 will be all about. A very interesting central idea, Spring – Olaf as the beast within, the id. And of course he is released as a by product of Willow’s request that Anya tell her what is really bothering her – to “let it out”. And so we see folks alternately venting their feelings and bottling them up all episode. Given the title, of course we also shouldn’t be surprised to see a continuation of the idea you mentioned in the last analysis; that of the relationship between 3 people. Instead of Riley and Spike and Buffy, we have Xander and Willow and Anya. But we are introduced into this different "3some" by a conversation about some of the participants of the previous one – Anya and Xander talking about Riley and Buffy. You know, I noticed many more warning signs about Xander and Anya’s relationship than I had spotted before. Anya asking for a warning before he leaves her, which of course she’s not going to get. It’s gonna be just as much of a surprise that shouldn’t have been a surprise if she (and he) were paying attention as the Buffy Riley thing was. And when Anya is talking about Buffy and saying “maybe it’s her” and sharing tales of women asking for vengeance over and over again – shades of things for Anya to think about. Because if Buffy isn’t learning from her own history very quickly, what is Anya learning? Xander’s saying “ . . it happened again. Man number two . . “ And as we learn in this ep, looks like Xander is “man number two” for Anya. And then later in the shop, the first time Anya and Xander are squabbling about the shop; Xander sticks up for Anya, but he’s not really paying attention – he’s just kind of floating through the conversation, like he often tries to do with life. Be on the surface, not let anyone in too close. Except . . . .he usually does let these two women in, so I noticed his “not there-ness” particularly in this scene. We do actually get several instances of Buffy repeating herself and having things “happen again”. As you said, Buffy not being ready to “face her Olaf”; not wanting to grow up and on. Sparring with Giles, she keeps dropping her shoulder, letting him know she’s gonna go with her right. And when he calls her on it? She lashes out, actually hurting him somewhat. Then there are the two different times she finally breaks down in tears over Xander and Anya’s relationship woes, actually letting out the sadness and anger she is feeling over Riley’s departure. After, of course, repeating several times to different people that she is “doing all right” and “I’ll be okay” and “I’m starting to get a perspective on the whole situation”. Yep. It also seemed to me like Joyce is paralleling Buffy’s apparent action in moving on, in this case from her illness (that you so accurately point out, Buffy is ambivalent about). Which we will see in the near future is not really a done deal (like Buffy has not dealt with Riley’s absence). I love how the end of this episode so clearly points us to a main theme of next week’s story. Buffy and Giles and Joyce talking about the council and Joyce puts her finger right on it. “I still don't understand . . why the other Watchers made you go all the way to England when they don't know anything.” Of course there was no reason to make him come there. The information he gave them and they didn’t give to him could all have been done over the phone. They made him come there because they had the power to make him and they wanted to remind him of that. Very interesting analysis, Spring! You really made me look with new eyes at this episode. Lola, babbling a bit too much as usual  |
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Post by LadyDi on Jul 18, 2004 20:31:15 GMT -5
Lola, babbling a bit too much as usual Wouldn't worry too much about the babbling - at least you kept it on-topic! ;D |
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 19, 2004 5:33:35 GMT -5
I should warn everybody up front that this is a favorite episode of mine – so I have an excess of opinions about it. I mean, first we have such funny funnies in here. From Buffy and the nun to the Xander and Spike comedy duo (heck, every single scene that takes place at the Bronze is just a gem) to the Willow and Anya road show. Funny, funny, funny. But like most funny episodes, there is soooo much important stuff going on too. As also as usual, so much in this funny episode is stuff that will be seen to be vital in hindsight. The Willow behaviors you mention, for example. With her “Giles away, Willow will play” attitude. Lines like “it’s easy!” and “it’s a good thing and if it doesn’t work out, Giles doesn’t have to know” tell us a lot about her future direction. Interesting to note that when it comes to fixing blame about releasing Olaf she first tries to spread the blame (somewhat accurately) to include Anya and her, and then segues into shifting the blame (wrongly) entirely onto Anya. We can even see the beginning of Tara’s discomfort with her actions; telling her maybe they should stop working on the spell. But it’s not just the magic that Tara is unhappy about. When Willow is imitating Anya and being really rather sarcastic and snotty – not a good look on Tara’s face. She really didn’t like that. Like you said, both Willow and Spike give us a taste of what season 6 will be all about. Yes - well-put. The Willow-foreshadowing is thick in this episode. When it comes to 3somes, I sort of wondered about the way they are all standing at the Bronze - Willow, Buffy, & Tara together, then Xander, Anya & Spike together. They seem very delibertely broken into threes, given the eps title, but I wasn't sure what to make of it . . . other than maybe the three characters in each set representing a "whole" (each set equals a whole person, so to speak) - the higher self (Buffy & Xander, our heroic types in this ep); the lower self (Willow & Spike); the poor schulb on the ground (Anya & Tara). Of course, Spike, Anya & Xander do become an actual love triangle, briefly. And as you mention below, there are other Anya/Xander warning signs in the ep. True - we really get a sense that despite Xander's declaration to Anya the week before, not much has really changed . . . she's still his Riley, that he takes for granted. Though we do see that when push comes to shove, these two are willing to die for each other. Only Xander's not so much willing to give his live-self to her all the way. Buffy showed a lot of duality in her feelings about Riley's departure, and I thought that was just the truth of how she felt - I mean, she feels two ways. Part of her misses him AND part of her is just fine with him being gone. Twice she answers "Sort of" when asked if she is doing OK about Riley. And the feelings she expresses have a sort of overdone, false ring to them. Sort of. It's all about the power! You don't babble too much, not at all. Great thoughts - thanks for adding them to this discussion. |
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bell
N'ubie
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Post by bell on Jul 24, 2004 11:33:56 GMT -5
First of all, I love these reviews! I'm reading them as I watch season 5 (for the second time), and their insight has helped me understand the series on an entirely different level. My analysis-geek self is pleased.
So now I want to contribute.
Triangle features a lot of mentions of rules/ societal groups/figures of authority. Willow berates Anya for not knowing the rules (at first it was, okay, used to be a demon. Well, now you've been a human forever-- learn the rules!). This is rather rich, coming from the girl who's refusing to acknowledge that she's stealing. So it's okay to break the rules so long as you know what they are?
So an essential part of growing up is learning how to function in society, and to function in society you need to know the rules. What/who lays down the rules? Figures of authority/ societal groups. All this mayhem happens when the main authority figure, Giles, leaves. Societal groups get mentioned, like the Catholic church, the Watchers, and college. But notice how they're all at a distance-- Buffy just considers becoming a nun, she doesn't actually join the church. The young ones watch the authority figure visit the Watchers, they don't interact with them themselves (yet). Buffy wants to sit five rows away from the spitting professor. Our cast is starting to realize that there are groups they have to join, authority they must obey, but they don't want to.
On a more emotional response, the groundwork laid down here (and in other s5 episodes, like Family) setting up the characters' downfalls are amazing. The first time I watched this season I kept feeling so *proud* of them all. I thought they were doing it all right. But now that I know where to look, I know that Buffy is right-- it's the little things that add up to breaking up. And because they're not being fixed-- hell, they're not even being noticed-- they're going to grow and grow.
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Post by LadyDi on Jul 24, 2004 13:13:12 GMT -5
Re: Spike and Olaf - when Olaf initially bumps Spike in the Bronze, Spike's response is an immediate (and cranky) "Watch it, mate!" Only after Olaf turns around and Spike gets a better look at him does Spike back down with "On second thought, do what you like."
This strikes me as odd, 'cuz Spike likes to take on a challenge. OTOH, Olaf hasn't really done anything harmful yet.
Going w/Olaf as the id, and Spike being mostly id due to his vamp nature, it sets up his struggle in s6. He's battling his inner Olaf, but it's a lot bigger than he is and does what it wants, then harms Buffy. Don't think I'm explaining this well. Just thinking that scene is pretty crucial.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 24, 2004 16:52:32 GMT -5
First of all, I love these reviews! I'm reading them as I watch season 5 (for the second time), and their insight has helped me understand the series on an entirely different level. My analysis-geek self is pleased. Thanks so much for letting me know you are reading and enjoying. Yay! Thanks for the excellent contribution. I do agree that under-the-surface in Season 5, the troubles that come to a head in Season 6 were brewing. Great set-up - I am so glad Joss was able to go on to Season 6 at UPN. I'm definitely not one of the folks that think BtVS should have ended in Season 5, with Buffy dead before she ever even gets to really live as an adult. |
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