|
|
Post by William the Bloody on Jun 4, 2004 10:43:32 GMT -5
Okay, lay it on me!
|
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Jun 4, 2004 13:36:25 GMT -5
Erin: Just wanted to give you my congrats on getting started on this! I am so glad to have a companion as I pursue my own mad plan to actually finish analyzing BtVS.
I checked out your first effort and want to say: Nice writing and writing style. I won't be popping in here too often, 'cause I haven't watched most of these eps, so I'm not qualified to comment much. But I wanted you to know I'm impressed and I'm glad you are doing this.
Congratulations Erin![/color][/size] on getting yourself a corner of your own, on one of the best Buffyverse sites on the web!
|
|
|
|
Post by Queen E on Jun 4, 2004 13:39:48 GMT -5
Erin: Just wanted to give you my congrats on getting started on this! I am so glad to have a companion as I pursue my own mad plan to actually finish analyzing BtVS. I checked out your first effort and want to say: Nice writing and writing style. I won't be popping in here too often, 'cause I haven't watched most of these eps, so I'm not qualified to comment much. But I wanted you to know I'm impressed and I'm glad you are doing this. Congratulations Erin![/color][/size] on getting yourself a corner of your own, on one of the best Buffyverse sites on the web! [/quote] Thank you, dear! I hope someday to near the level of awesome you've achieved with Spikecentricity. Any feedback is always appreciated. |
|
|
|
Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Jun 4, 2004 15:10:58 GMT -5
*trying not to be distracted by Vlad's request..* Erin, nice job! I like the way you approached this first episode of Angel, and I'm looking forward to discussing this one and all the rest to come. I think City of was a great beginning for the series - it definitely established Angel's identity as more than 'just' a hunk of handsome vampire boy toy for Buffy. I thought it was fun when I first saw it that Angel has more 'power' in LA than in Sunnydale - the leaps on and over tall buildings - he never got to do that sort of thing on BtVS. I also LOVED the surprise of him sending Russell 'flying' at the end! And I just thought of something probably too much of a stretch...but soon after Spike arrived in Sunnydale he sent the resident vamp power 'The Annoying One' flying up into flames... and Angel sends the resident power vamp Russell flying down in flames soon after he arrives in LA. And that shot of Russell and chair sailing down was very Hitchcockian too.. Also interesting to me - and it fits again with the more adult viewpoint for this show is that Angel fails to save the girl he is trying to save this time. Happy endings - not guaranteed on Angel OR Buffy... Looking forward to the next one, Erin! |
|
makd breaking again
Guest
|
Post by makd breaking again on Jun 4, 2004 15:12:42 GMT -5
Hi, Erin
I've been away with RL sitches, and glad to be back. I gather Angelphiles is your very own angelic version of Spring's Spikecentricity?
Congrats! I'll be a reading your takes, and I know I'll be looking forward to and reading them as faithfully as I read Spring's. (I am soooo bad with replying to Spring's reviews! They are just. so. very. good. that I end up reading them, going away to think more about them, then forgetting to log back in and reply. Bad makd, bad, bad.)
anyhoo! congrats again!
|
|
|
|
Post by Joshua Adams on Jun 4, 2004 15:55:10 GMT -5
Excellent analysis, Erin. I'm less familiar with AtS going-ons before the Pylea episodes, so I plan on educating myself quite a bit with Angelphiles. Thankfully, you seem more than up to the task of elucidating the shows themes and methods.
|
|
|
|
Post by Queen E on Jun 4, 2004 16:31:48 GMT -5
First of all, mad props to Josh for use of the word "elucidating."
To Patti, makd, Josh, and Spring, thanks for taking the time to read and comment!
Patti said:
I have a theory (is that ever going to be sayable again?) that the Hellmouth is equivalent to living next to power lines or nuclear power; you're not quite sure what it will do to you. I've never had a problem with the differences in strength or attitude from Buffy to Angel for that reason.
And your theory is really on the mark (I wish I'd thought of it!) about the parallels between Spike's destruction of the annoying one and Angel's killing of Russell Winters. I think it is definitely a way to say "There's a new sheriff in town," as they defeat the "old guard."
The ambiguity/nonhappy endings on Angel was definitely a draw for me. But, then again, I really loved Season 6, with its darkness and depression and crazy behavior. It seemed more realistic; ie, there's only so much you can control.
|
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Jun 4, 2004 21:30:14 GMT -5
Erin, kudos to you! On this review and on the whole plan to examine all of the Angel eps. I have this mad idea that I’m gonna watch each ep again just before I read your thoughts and take notes and be all ready to comment semi-intelligently. We’ll see how long that lasts. I have been trying to do this with Spring's Spikecentricity essays and have fallen behind lately. Real life. Grrrrrrr!
Liked your thoughts on the notion of identity. I was really struck by that as well. Of course, as you noted, it is somewhat expected in a first show. After all, viewers have to be introduced to these characters. But it is unusual to have a first show use those introductions to keep you off balance as you learn about the people in it. Normally, you would expect the goal to be to definitely impress their identities on us – to make each person fit their slot so we will understand what to expect from these people, to like them right away and therefore be interested in coming back next week. Soooo not Joss’ way of doing things. He wants us unsure of these characters – who they are and what they will do next. Think you’ve got someone pegged? He’ll change it up on you. The theme of misidentification is a hint to what the rest of the series is going to bring us – an amazing roller coaster of ambiguity. We see it in the very first scene where Angel saves the two women, yes, but then is drawn to the blood and yells at them to “get away from me”. (Loved all the Spike parallels I was noticing this time. Angel has his own style, but he’s just as obnoxious to this first “damsel in distress” as Spike was with his “what kind of retard wears heels like that in a dark alley?” comment. Hee hee!)
I also noted how it’s not just language, but juxtaposition of scenes that adds to the “identity/who are you”ness. So typically wonderfully Joss – like when Angel is saying to Stacey “there’s nobody left I care about” and then we cut to Cordelia saying her meditation mantra of “I am somebody. I matter.” Foreshadowing much? I always loved Joss’ scene jumps for just these kind of clever interplays.
Loved your comments about Cordy:
It’s not just that she is out of resources, or even just that in Sunnydale she was a big fish in a little pond but LA doesn’t even notice she’s there. We also get hints of just how “on the surface” her old “glamorous” life was. Built on shaky foundations of fashion and making sure to have the “latest thing” if you live in SunnyD, but probably not so cutting edge if you’re in LA. The way she acts when impressed by Russell’s home gives us a hint of how much about the “good life” she actually doesn’t know. “I grew up in a nice home. It wasn't like this, but we did have a room or two that we didn't even know what they were for,” she says in a, especially for Cordy, very uncertain voice. Something tells me Cordy’s folks had money, yes, but weren’t exactly “old family money” types. But Cordy will always be Cordy – loved her “I’m from Sunnydale. We had our own hellmouth!”
Gosh. Everyone just looks so fresh faced and dewy here at the start of season 1, don’t they? Angel, Cordy – heck, even Lindsey looks like he’s just wearing his first grown-up suit for the first time. And yep - all the elements are there right from the get go and you did such a nice re-cap of them.
Check, check, check, check, check, check. Got 'em all. ;D
Well, enough babbling from me. Maybe after others have had their say I’ll come back and bounce some more ideas around.
Lola
|
|
|
|
Post by Queen E on Jun 7, 2004 10:23:48 GMT -5
Erin, kudos to you! On this review and on the whole plan to examine all of the Angel eps. I have this mad idea that I’m gonna watch each ep again just before I read your thoughts and take notes and be all ready to comment semi-intelligently. We’ll see how long that lasts. I have been trying to do this with Spring's Spikecentricity essays and have fallen behind lately. Real life. Grrrrrrr! Liked your thoughts on the notion of identity. I was really struck by that as well. Of course, as you noted, it is somewhat expected in a first show. After all, viewers have to be introduced to these characters. But it is unusual to have a first show use those introductions to keep you off balance as you learn about the people in it. Normally, you would expect the goal to be to definitely impress their identities on us – to make each person fit their slot so we will understand what to expect from these people, to like them right away and therefore be interested in coming back next week. Soooo not Joss’ way of doing things. He wants us unsure of these characters – who they are and what they will do next. Think you’ve got someone pegged? He’ll change it up on you. The theme of misidentification is a hint to what the rest of the series is going to bring us – an amazing roller coaster of ambiguity. We see it in the very first scene where Angel saves the two women, yes, but then is drawn to the blood and yells at them to “get away from me”. (Loved all the Spike parallels I was noticing this time. Angel has his own style, but he’s just as obnoxious to this first “damsel in distress” as Spike was with his “what kind of retard wears heels like that in a dark alley?” comment. Hee hee!) I also noted how it’s not just language, but juxtaposition of scenes that adds to the “identity/who are you”ness. So typically wonderfully Joss – like when Angel is saying to Stacey “there’s nobody left I care about” and then we cut to Cordelia saying her meditation mantra of “I am somebody. I matter.” Foreshadowing much? I always loved Joss’ scene jumps for just these kind of clever interplays. Loved your comments about Cordy: It’s not just that she is out of resources, or even just that in Sunnydale she was a big fish in a little pond but LA doesn’t even notice she’s there. We also get hints of just how “on the surface” her old “glamorous” life was. Built on shaky foundations of fashion and making sure to have the “latest thing” if you live in SunnyD, but probably not so cutting edge if you’re in LA. The way she acts when impressed by Russell’s home gives us a hint of how much about the “good life” she actually doesn’t know. “I grew up in a nice home. It wasn't like this, but we did have a room or two that we didn't even know what they were for,” she says in a, especially for Cordy, very uncertain voice. Something tells me Cordy’s folks had money, yes, but weren’t exactly “old family money” types. But Cordy will always be Cordy – loved her “I’m from Sunnydale. We had our own hellmouth!” Gosh. Everyone just looks so fresh faced and dewy here at the start of season 1, don’t they? Angel, Cordy – heck, even Lindsey looks like he’s just wearing his first grown-up suit for the first time. And yep - all the elements are there right from the get go and you did such a nice re-cap of them. Check, check, check, check, check, check. Got 'em all. ;D Well, enough babbling from me. Maybe after others have had their say I’ll come back and bounce some more ideas around. Lola Good babbling! Bounce all you want. You are completely right about the misidentification/prevaricating that goes on throughout season 1 (well, beyond that too). I'm going to examine that more in "Lonely Hearts," which is just chock full o' questions about who somebody really is. I hope you'll come back and comment more as I move through the Angel episodes...I love me a good thoughtful discussion of stuff I enjoy. |
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Jun 8, 2004 11:10:52 GMT -5
OK - you asked for it! More babbling, here we come.
We also see another main difference between BtVS and AtS right away in this opening ep. We see a whole world of “bad guys” in Angel that are sophisticated, part of the power elite, part of society – frankly more in charge of things than the “good guys”.
Yes, Buffy had the Mayor (with his control of the city council and high school principal) and the Initiative. But both of these examples are shown to not work all that well and are finally brought down by Buffy and the gang. The Mayor wasn’t even able to really control the police of Sunnydale - usually presented as a clueless bunch who have no concept of what they are dealing with, much less being able to handle it. The people of Sunnydale go their own way, generally ignoring the strange goings-on, not making them part of the structure of the town. The Initiative is constantly, subtly, shown to be just as ignorant about the true nature of the demon world and not always that successful when compared with Buffy and her wacky scoobies. After all, Spike and others escape, they don’t even know an apocalypse is happening until Buffy and the gang have already averted it, Adam is able to run his own secret demon/human program right under their noses, etc. Generally, the world of BtVS is one of more disorganized hellmouthy chaos. The big bads don’t ever really manage to get much of a plan going – just think of Glory and her incompetent minions or the nerd trio’s attempt to become a gang that isn’t even noticed by the demon world in general.
When we look at AtS, though, we are presented right off the bat with institutionalized, successful bad guys. The very first enemy we see Angel face is Russell with his corporate empire and his enablers, Lindsey and W&H - the ultimate evil law firm. And these are not isolated, ultimately defeated corporate baddies. Russell may have taken a fiery flyer out a window, but W&H ain’t goin’ anywhere. They’re gonna be pulling everyone’s strings – from this moment all the way up to the final season ending showdown where our heroes understand perfectly well that truly eliminating the senior partners isn’t a possibility. You could almost call Angel’s entire journey throughout the series as a dance with W&H. How do you deal with well-funded, “in-group” evil? First, he’s an isolated guy with no particular aim, just helping whoever crosses his path. Then it’s a ratty office with a couple of helpers, a somewhat hazy pipeline to the PTB, and a mission that consists of Doyle telling him that he’s supposed to show people “there’s love and hope in the world”. Then it’s a slightly more organized “business”- calling cards, clients who don’t pay their bills, “helping the hopeless”, and a move to much classier digs at the Hyperion. Finally, the ultimate move right into the heart of the entrenched status quo of badness itself, taking over W&H.
Just comparing the two series endings and the bad guys they are fighting in each kind of sums up, for me, the very different stories that Joss was telling in BtVS and AtS. Both so fascinating and interesting, each in their own way.
Lola
|
|
|
|
Post by Queen E on Jun 8, 2004 13:10:29 GMT -5
OK - you asked for it! More babbling, here we come. We also see another main difference between BtVS and AtS right away in this opening ep. We see a whole world of “bad guys” in Angel that are sophisticated, part of the power elite, part of society – frankly more in charge of things than the “good guys”. Yes, Buffy had the Mayor (with his control of the city council and high school principal) and the Initiative. But both of these examples are shown to not work all that well and are finally brought down by Buffy and the gang. The Mayor wasn’t even able to really control the police of Sunnydale - usually presented as a clueless bunch who have no concept of what they are dealing with, much less being able to handle it. The people of Sunnydale go their own way, generally ignoring the strange goings-on, not making them part of the structure of the town. The Initiative is constantly, subtly, shown to be just as ignorant about the true nature of the demon world and not always that successful when compared with Buffy and her wacky scoobies. After all, Spike and others escape, they don’t even know an apocalypse is happening until Buffy and the gang have already averted it, Adam is able to run his own secret demon/human program right under their noses, etc. Generally, the world of BtVS is one of more disorganized hellmouthy chaos. The big bads don’t ever really manage to get much of a plan going – just think of Glory and her incompetent minions or the nerd trio’s attempt to become a gang that isn’t even noticed by the demon world in general. When we look at AtS, though, we are presented right off the bat with institutionalized, successful bad guys. The very first enemy we see Angel face is Russell with his corporate empire and his enablers, Lindsey and W&H - the ultimate evil law firm. And these are not isolated, ultimately defeated corporate baddies. Russell may have taken a fiery flyer out a window, but W&H ain’t goin’ anywhere. They’re gonna be pulling everyone’s strings – from this moment all the way up to the final season ending showdown where our heroes understand perfectly well that truly eliminating the senior partners isn’t a possibility. You could almost call Angel’s entire journey throughout the series as a dance with W&H. How do you deal with well-funded, “in-group” evil? First, he’s an isolated guy with no particular aim, just helping whoever crosses his path. Then it’s a ratty office with a couple of helpers, a somewhat hazy pipeline to the PTB, and a mission that consists of Doyle telling him that he’s supposed to show people “there’s love and hope in the world”. Then it’s a slightly more organized “business”- calling cards, clients who don’t pay their bills, “helping the hopeless”, and a move to much classier digs at the Hyperion. Finally, the ultimate move right into the heart of the entrenched status quo of badness itself, taking over W&H. Just comparing the two series endings and the bad guys they are fighting in each kind of sums up, for me, the very different stories that Joss was telling in BtVS and AtS. Both so fascinating and interesting, each in their own way. Lola I am in awe and more than a little chagrined. That was quite the masterful reading, and I am deeply impressed. Please stick around and continue to comment; it can only make me work harder! Thanks again, Lola. |
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Jun 8, 2004 17:16:12 GMT -5
I am in awe and more than a little chagrined. That was quite the masterful reading, and I am deeply impressed. Please stick around and continue to comment; it can only make me work harder! Thanks again, Lola. No chagrining allowed! And thanks for the compliment. I only get about one or two ideas before my brain goes bye bye, so I figured I better make the most of it.  Plus, it's so way easier for me to think of this stuff with that cool 20/20 hindsight, ya know? When the show and the arcs are happening, I'm all like "Oooh. What's that pretty shiney object over there? Bam!" Joss sucks me in and gets me every time.  And I love him for it.  Plus, I tend to follow any other idea put before me, so a lot of my posts could be summed up with "eetah". I will try to keep watching in time with your reviews in the hopes I can comment thoughfully each time. I really appreciate and am amazed by folks like you and Nan and Spring who can manage to do this stuff so wonderfully and consistantly. My hats off to you! Lola |
|
|
|
Post by Cal on Jun 18, 2004 6:19:46 GMT -5
Wonderful analysis, Erin! Sorry it's taken me so long to comment. I just wanted to let you know that I'd read, appreciated and enjoyed your analysis. Like Spring's Spikecentricity, your analyses are going to enhance my enjoyment of each episode. Thanks! Looking forward to reading many more.  |
|
|
|
Post by Nickim on Jul 24, 2004 8:23:34 GMT -5
Great job Erin. I haven't watched Angel with an analytical eye, so your reviews are a treat. I don't have the DVD's, so I can't comment much.
I do love how not saving the girl in Episode 1 really sets the tone that this show is very different and much more realistic--is that possible when discussing vampires??--more gritty than BtVS.
|
|
|
|
Post by Linda on Aug 1, 2004 23:26:05 GMT -5
Hi Erin! Excellent analysis! Thanks to you, I enjoyed this episode a *lot* more than I did when it first came out. OK, part of that is because I've grown to appreciate darkness and ambiguity in my TV shows, but part of it is because of all the cool insights you came up with. I liked the way you organized it, too, since it was nice to have the overview of the theme and then the characters while watching the episode. Oh, and *thank you* for mentioning where everyone was coming from before the series started (hee! Doyle was still Mark Healy.) It was a nice reminder of what it was like watching the show for the first time. You know, except for me appreciating it more now. And I just had to mention that "I've got a theory" is perfectly sayable. Just ignore the backup orchestra and the synchronized dancing. In your analysis, you mentioned what Russell Winters' name meant, symbolically. It made me see that he is the antithesis of Buffy Summers. And yet, darkness and coldness are not deadly to Angel, not the way summer's sunlight and fire would be. Russell Winters may be an enemy, but he also represents Angel's natural environment. When Tina was describing what kind of a monster Russell was, it struck me that she could be describing Angelus as well. (Except for her not being dead already.) In fact, what we now know of Angelus makes Russell's cruelty seem kinda minor. And so one of the central struggles of the series is reiterated: Angel is fighting a war against the darkness and coldness within himself. And this war has not yet been won. Stupid network suits. ![]() www.soulfulspike.com/membersavatars/smileys/badrazz.gif [/img] Linda, still bitter P.S. I've posted a couple of comments not specifically related to your analysis on the Episodic Elaborations thread for this episode. That's why this post is not as long as it could've been. |
|
Plus, it's so way easier for me to think of this stuff with that cool 20/20 hindsight, ya know? When the show and the arcs are happening, I'm all like "Oooh. What's that pretty shiney object over there? Bam!" Joss sucks me in and gets me every time. 
And I love him for it. 
Plus, I tend to follow any other idea put before me, so a lot of my posts could be summed up with "eetah". 
