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Post by Linda on Aug 1, 2004 23:49:42 GMT -5
Another thought about the demon looking for the "right one". When someone marries and has troubles and decides to bail instead of working it out--if possible--they usually take the same troubles into a new relationship. We need to work out the problems in ourselves before we look for that "right one." If we're selfish and unhappy before we're in a relationship, we'll be selfish and unhappy in a relationship + we'll be making someone else unhappy. We need to be whole without another person in our lives, instead of looking for someone to "make us complete" or "make us happy." The best relationships, the ones that last, are the joining of 2 people who are happy as singles, and want to share that happiness with someone. I don't know if I expressed this very well, but I hope it makes sense. I like this thought Nicki! And you expressed it very well, btw. You got me to thinking about what Talamour was *really* looking for. During the episode, the demon comments on being in Screech by saying: "I already know it's not the one I can live in." The words implied that Talamour was looking for the perfect host in which to live forever. But there is no perfect host. So your drive to find the one person who completes you can eviscerate who you truly are and prevent you from living and growing; prevent you from being a better person so that you can happily share your life with someone else. Linda, even "meh" Jossverse episodes have things to say...
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Post by Queen E on Aug 2, 2004 8:53:28 GMT -5
I like this thought Nicki! And you expressed it very well, btw. You got me to thinking about what Talamour was *really* looking for. During the episode, the demon comments on being in Screech by saying: "I already know it's not the one I can live in." The words implied that Talamour was looking for the perfect host in which to live forever. But there is no perfect host. So your drive to find the one person who completes you can eviscerate who you truly are and prevent you from living and growing; prevent you from being a better person so that you can happily share your life with someone else. Linda, even "meh" Jossverse episodes have things to say... As well as eviscerating the other person whom you try to make into that "perfect host." Talamour sucks all identity except its own out of each victim it becomes "intimate" with. yeesh. big shudders all 'round with this episode.
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Post by Queen E on Aug 5, 2004 8:58:31 GMT -5
Hi Erin! Another great analysis! This was *not* one of my favorite episodes, but thanks to your analysis, I got to look beyond the meh-ness and into the meanings behind it. Eetah on the role-playing. And the connections between Talamour and Angel/Angelus. And thanks for including the lyrics to the featured song "Touched." I see how you connected the song to what was happening to Angel & Kate as well as to Talamour. However, in reading the lyrics, what jumps out at me is how well it describes Angel's feelings for Buffy: i'll never find someone quite like you again i looked into your eyes and saw a world that does not exist i looked into your eyes and saw a world i wish i was in ... i'll never love someone quite the way that I loved you And because the lyrics brought Buffy to my mind, I was wondering, since it was playing over that Kate/Angel/Talamour montage, whether Kate was being set up as Angel's "Riley." Because one of the things that Angel and Talamour had in common was a fatal vulnerability to fire. Fire in the Jossverse is passion & true emotion. You know: Spike! (Oh, that's just to me. And to Buffy. And to 80% of the S'cubies...) Where was I? Oh, yeah... Whenever you see the "afterglow" of the Talamour couplings, the bed partners seemed very isolated and disconnected, their body language saying "I'm soooo uncomfortable right now," pretty much stating that there was no true passion involved in the sex. And, when you look at the series over its entire run, no fiery passion for Angel except for Buffy in IWRY. And *that* got erased. Darla? Despair. Nina? Pleasant intimacy. Even his love for Cordy did not strike me as a fiery passion-thing. For example, during Awakenings in Season 4, it was Buffy's name that he called out just before his soul was extracted, not Cordy's. All of this makes me wonder if, from the very beginning, they were saying: No perfect smoochies for you, Angel. And that the reason Angel was so happy about being alone in the dark at the end of the episode was that he doesn't have to be in any danger of making another connection like his connection with Buffy. You know, so Cordy doesn't have to end up working for a homicidal maniac. So, thanks Erin, for the analysis. And for making this episode *much* more interesting than it was before. Linda, hmmm ... Spike ... Oh my god, how could I have missed this post? Really beautiful work here, Linda; I had not thought of the "passion" metaphor in terms of Angel and Talamour's fear of fire...and Spike's pushing of the envelope. Buffy and Spike really are much more well matched in some ways; as Riley would say, they are both "Make the plan, execute the plan" type of people. And your also correct; Talamour is not looking for love, he's looking for "connection" much as Angel is looking to connect with people. Neither of them can handle the fire...they'd be destroyed.
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Post by Kate (K8) on Aug 5, 2004 14:07:24 GMT -5
Hi Erin! Another great analysis! This was *not* one of my favorite episodes, but thanks to your analysis, I got to look beyond the meh-ness and into the meanings behind it. Eetah on the role-playing. And the connections between Talamour and Angel/Angelus. And thanks for including the lyrics to the featured song "Touched." I see how you connected the song to what was happening to Angel & Kate as well as to Talamour. However, in reading the lyrics, what jumps out at me is how well it describes Angel's feelings for Buffy: i'll never find someone quite like you again i looked into your eyes and saw a world that does not exist i looked into your eyes and saw a world i wish i was in ... i'll never love someone quite the way that I loved you And because the lyrics brought Buffy to my mind, I was wondering, since it was playing over that Kate/Angel/Talamour montage, whether Kate was being set up as Angel's "Riley." Because one of the things that Angel and Talamour had in common was a fatal vulnerability to fire. Fire in the Jossverse is passion & true emotion. You know: Spike! (Oh, that's just to me. And to Buffy. And to 80% of the S'cubies...) Where was I? Oh, yeah... Whenever you see the "afterglow" of the Talamour couplings, the bed partners seemed very isolated and disconnected, their body language saying "I'm soooo uncomfortable right now," pretty much stating that there was no true passion involved in the sex. And, when you look at the series over its entire run, no fiery passion for Angel except for Buffy in IWRY. And *that* got erased. Darla? Despair. Nina? Pleasant intimacy. Even his love for Cordy did not strike me as a fiery passion-thing. For example, during Awakenings in Season 4, it was Buffy's name that he called out just before his soul was extracted, not Cordy's. All of this makes me wonder if, from the very beginning, they were saying: No perfect smoochies for you, Angel. And that the reason Angel was so happy about being alone in the dark at the end of the episode was that he doesn't have to be in any danger of making another connection like his connection with Buffy. You know, so Cordy doesn't have to end up working for a homicidal maniac. So, thanks Erin, for the analysis. And for making this episode *much* more interesting than it was before. Linda, hmmm ... Spike ... This made me think of Spike being worried about there being fire in Underneath (I know it's coz of the burning and dying bit but also he didn't want to call Buffy to get involved with her again or get close to anyone else so avoiding the passion etc - haven't seen TGIQ yet, just know the jist, so I don't know if there's anything relevant there).
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Post by Queen E on Aug 5, 2004 14:27:15 GMT -5
This made me think of Spike being worried about there being fire in Underneath (I know it's coz of the burning and dying bit but also he didn't want to call Buffy to get involved with her again or get close to anyone else so avoiding the passion etc - haven't seen TGIQ yet, just know the jist, so I don't know if there's anything relevant there). No, that is a great insight! I think the subtext, especially given the recent loss of Fred, is there. That would definitely put him in mind of Buffy, and their history of passion and loss. Great insight, k8! I look forward to reading more of your insights on this topic, and hope you continue to post!
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Post by Linda on Aug 6, 2004 3:09:49 GMT -5
Oh my god, how could I have missed this post? Really beautiful work here, Linda; I had not thought of the "passion" metaphor in terms of Angel and Talamour's fear of fire...and Spike's pushing of the envelope. Buffy and Spike really are much more well matched in some ways; as Riley would say, they are both "Make the plan, execute the plan" type of people. And your also correct; Talamour is not looking for love, he's looking for "connection" much as Angel is looking to connect with people. Neither of them can handle the fire...they'd be destroyed. Aww! My incessant whining shameless grovelling worked! -- thank you. <-- happy blush May I just mention that thanks to you, during a staff meeting at work in which we all met with an incoming bigwig, I introduced myself as the Finance Minion to this person in front of everyone. I'm not sure if this is a ;D or a thing. Time will tell. (Although my immediate boss is a lovely human being and found it funny.) Linda, thanks for the dental, too ;D
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Post by Linda on Aug 6, 2004 3:15:38 GMT -5
This made me think of Spike being worried about there being fire in Underneath (I know it's coz of the burning and dying bit but also he didn't want to call Buffy to get involved with her again or get close to anyone else so avoiding the passion etc - haven't seen TGIQ yet, just know the jist, so I don't know if there's anything relevant there). Hi K8! Eetah with Erin on this insight! The idea went "Click!" in my brain. Must go and think on the implications. Please keep on posting. Linda, ooh, she quoted my post for the cool insight ;D
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Post by Kate (K8) on Aug 6, 2004 9:34:19 GMT -5
Will try to post if I think of something else but don't have the Angel S1 DVDs yet so have to try and remember what happened or use transcripts which aren't perfect.
To extend the fire-passion thing: Although spike was worried about fire he still went along and jumped into it to get out of the basement (although he was panicked about catching on fire) this could symbolise although he is wary of passion etc he may be willing to risk it in some circumstances in the future.
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Post by jeff on Jul 10, 2007 17:06:05 GMT -5
That was a really good read Erin. I love the way you compared Angel's business card to the fact that each person and the demon are trying to figure out who they are and where they fit. It really shows the sad side of the single life in this episode. All these people out at the bars looking for a connection. But it is hard to find a connection when you are drunk off your ass. The Demon may have had better luck looking in other places for a connection. I mean how many people actually connect to someone in a nightclub, demon or human. At least meeting someone you can connect to for more than a two week period. I know I tried it. I married a girl I met in a club. Things did not go well. 2 yr later. Divorced. I am going back to read the reviews you have posted on other episodes as I reach them. So I will comment on them when I watch the episode. Any plans to continue the reviews? I know life has you pretty tied up.
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Post by Queen E on Jul 10, 2007 17:16:26 GMT -5
That was a really good read Erin. I love the way you compared Angel's business card to the fact that each person and the demon are trying to figure out who they are and where they fit. It really shows the sad side of the single life in this episode. All these people out at the bars looking for a connection. But it is hard to find a connection when you are drunk off your ass. The Demon may have had better luck looking in other places for a connection. I mean how many people actually connect to someone in a nightclub, demon or human. At least meeting someone you can connect to for more than a two week period. I know I tried it. I married a girl I met in a club. Things did not go well. 2 yr later. Divorced. I am going back to read the reviews you have posted on other episodes as I reach them. So I will comment on them when I watch the episode. Any plans to continue the reviews? I know life has you pretty tied up. Oy! Sorry about that mis-step, but maybe it was one of those things you had to go through to get where you are. I'm so glad you enjoyed the review; it was a hard episode to write about...some of the early episodes needed several re-watchings before I could grasp the thread of the episode. I AM going to continue with these. I got waylaid by school work this year, but have already taken notes and will start writing the review of "Redefinition" as soon as I finish my last Heroes review. SO far behind I am!
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