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Post by Queen E on Aug 4, 2004 7:49:19 GMT -5
Your thoughts? Or feelings?
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Post by Lola m on Aug 4, 2004 20:05:55 GMT -5
Feeeelings, whoa whoa whoa . . . damn, now that's stuck in my head. ;D
I just love this episode for all it's funnies and what not. But thanks, Erin, for pointing out all the other things that make it an important show.
Particularly, the idea of balance and how most of the characters are off-balance.
There are so many reasons why Angel backs away again from true "integration" - and we'll see so many of them revealed as we go thru the rest of this series. Interesting how often this idea keeps coming up - of bringing together both sides, all aspects of Angel. Even in this week's Buffy ep, we heard Darla talk about how he needs to "accept" his "dark" or vamp side. Of course, she wasn't talking about integration, rather just switching sides. Selfishly wanting the old Angelus back. But still the idea is there.
You are soooo right with the parallels of Angel and Kate. They are just mirroring each other all episode (actually they do that in a lot of eps). And how significant is it that, as you said:
Hmmmm. Parallels indeed.
I was especially struck by your comment about Papa Lockley, really the saddest and most "realistic" part of this whole wonderfully comic ep.
So insightful. I mean, he does know his daughter - as you point out. How sad that he can't show this understanding to her, rather than others. And how sad especially that:
Nice analysis, Erin!
Lola
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Post by Queen E on Aug 6, 2004 9:29:21 GMT -5
Feeeelings, whoa whoa whoa . . . damn, now that's stuck in my head. ;D I just love this episode for all it's funnies and what not. But thanks, Erin, for pointing out all the other things that make it an important show. Particularly, the idea of balance and how most of the characters are off-balance. There are so many reasons why Angel backs away again from true "integration" - and we'll see so many of them revealed as we go thru the rest of this series. Interesting how often this idea keeps coming up - of bringing together both sides, all aspects of Angel. Even in this week's Buffy ep, we heard Darla talk about how he needs to "accept" his "dark" or vamp side. Of course, she wasn't talking about integration, rather just switching sides. Selfishly wanting the old Angelus back. But still the idea is there. You are soooo right with the parallels of Angel and Kate. They are just mirroring each other all episode (actually they do that in a lot of eps). And how significant is it that, as you said: Hmmmm. Parallels indeed. I was especially struck by your comment about Papa Lockley, really the saddest and most "realistic" part of this whole wonderfully comic ep. So insightful. I mean, he does know his daughter - as you point out. How sad that he can't show this understanding to her, rather than others. And how sad especially that: Nice analysis, Erin! Lola Thank you, my dear. The part with Trevor Lockley was brutal...and yet, to have it really make a change in their relationship would undermine the tone of the show. Things don't get better because you spill everything you feel...sometimes they get worse and sometimes nothing changes at all. This was a hard episode to analyze, because it really wasn't as subtext heavy as some of the other ones. |
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Post by Nickim on Aug 8, 2004 15:14:09 GMT -5
This episode was really painful for me to watch. I feel so sorry for Kate and Angel, too. To bottle up all that pain inside for so long and then have it all spill out at once and no one even seem to care--ouch. My dad was one of those "don't cry, it doesn't help" kind of fathers. Unfortunately, there were times when I just couldn't NOT cry. I think he finally understood that until he was much older and would get emotional himself when watching a touching scene in a movie. Don't know what this has to do with Angel, but that's what went through my mind when I saw this episode. Closing off our emotions isn't good for us, but neither is letting them rule our lives.
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Post by Nickim on Aug 9, 2004 13:38:59 GMT -5
Just kind of hit me today that this episode is almost the AtS version of Once More With Feeling. Of course, no cute couple singing and dancing. But, there is the outpouring of emotions that the characters would rather can't hidden.
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Post by Queen E on Aug 9, 2004 13:52:19 GMT -5
This episode was really painful for me to watch. I feel so sorry for Kate and Angel, too. To bottle up all that pain inside for so long and then have it all spill out at once and no one even seem to care--ouch. My dad was one of those "don't cry, it doesn't help" kind of fathers. Unfortunately, there were times when I just couldn't NOT cry. I think he finally understood that until he was much older and would get emotional himself when watching a touching scene in a movie. Don't know what this has to do with Angel, but that's what went through my mind when I saw this episode. Closing off our emotions isn't good for us, but neither is letting them rule our lives. It really is all about the balance...and look what eventually happened to poor Trevor Lockley. He never knew how to say what he needed to to his daughter, but, like so many dads, tried to show her his love by being a good provider. He was way out of whack; and I wonder what would have happened if he'd been whammied. Just kind of hit me today that this episode is almost the AtS version of Once More With Feeling. Of course, no cute couple singing and dancing. But, there is the outpouring of emotions that the characters would rather can't hidden. I agree, in tone, if not in execution, it is very similar. An intriguing mix of the deadly serious and the drop-dead hilarious. I heart Tim Minear. |
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Post by Linda on Jul 7, 2005 5:16:15 GMT -5
Hi Erin! I am not worthy! #bid# I loooved your analysis! Your observations gave me many an "Aha!" moment. I think you are spot-on with Angel's preferred method of dealing with feelings. Especially since he leaves Cordy and Doyle to deal with the slimy stuff instead of doing it himself. But you are right about how in-touch Angel was with his feelings before everything went out of balance. Huh. As to your open question about why Angel becomes less integrated, well I am totally looking forward to reading about that! (My theory: Joss is eeeeeeevvvvuuuuuulllll. ) Umm. I don't have too much to add. I think because I really, really dislike Kate's father for what he did to her. There were so many good things going on with Cordy and Doyle and the deepening relationship between Angel and Kate. But Trevor's rejection of Kate's feelings made this ep a bit too bleak for me to enjoy as much as I want to. My head understands why it had to end up this way, but my heart is saying: Foamy! smack him upside the head! err ... He's mean! But eetah with your conclusion that we have to find the balance between Sense and Sensitivity. I guess that Angel consistently has that head / heart problem all the way through the series. Hence the Caveman vs. Astronaut knockdown dragout in Season Five. OMG. I really 3 miss the Jossverse. Linda, catching up someday, if I can learn to ignore the hysterical and skeptical laughter from the voices in my head.  |
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Post by Linda on Jul 15, 2005 23:12:01 GMT -5
Hi again! Ok, I've been feeling a bit guilty because at the time of the previous post, I had only watched this episode once with your analysis in mind. That's at least two times less than usual. (Not that I'm at all obsessed with Jossverse shows or analyses thereof... :  I just really, really don't like Trevor Lockley. Almost as much as I don't like Roger Wyndham-Pryce. And then I remembered that one of the things that RW-P said to Wesley in Lineage: Oh, I forgot. This is Los Angeles where we have to talk about our feelings. And then maybe we'll hug. (Roy Dotrice was soooo good at putting all that contempt into the word "hug.") So it struck me: this is one of those early Angel episodes where they are demonstrating that we're not in Sunnydale anymore. I believe that the opening scene where a small blonde woman is chasing after a tough guy in an alley deliberately brings to mind BtVS. But it turns out that it's not Buffy. It's Kate. She's tough and agile, but also out of breath when she takes the guy down. But she can't make him talk. And she has to ask for help to get the main bad guy. And later, when she tells her father about her true feelings, she doesn't get anything from him except more hurt. Everyone, no matter how reserved or inexpressive, feels. (Even Vulcans.  ) Seems to me that the pivotal decisions in this episode have to do with talking about those feelings. At this point in BtVS, Buffy and the Scoobies talk about their feelings a lot. It makes them closer and, IMO, shows that their friendships began when they were all very young. (Giles is the exception: he's a grown-up, he's a mentor and he's British -- so not so much with the talkiness there. It's one of the reasons why I believe that his relationship with Buffy and the Scoobies was credibly strained in Seasons Six and Seven.) Thank you 3 for: "Self-help becomes self-obsession." That is the point where things become unglued in the adult world. (Teen-agers like the Scoobies, on the other hand, are usually allowed to get away with this.) Just about all the decisions to talk about feelings in this episode end in disaster or weebie-ness. Sometimes people keep their feelings to themselves for good reason. And sometimes not-so-good ones. Trying to prevent hurting others or yourself is an arguably valid reason to keep quiet. But by doing so, you also make your world darker and grayer and lonelier. But then emotional devastation is pretty dark, gray and lonely, too. (Which is why: #badrazz# to Trevor & Roger.) As you say in your analysis: Balance good. Thanks for making me look more closely at this episode, 'cause there was a lot of fun stuff in it. "Does tentacle spew come out with dry cleaning?" ;D Linda, trying to be a rainbow instead of a "painbow" |
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Post by Linda on Jul 15, 2005 23:21:14 GMT -5
Hi again!
Oh, and the other reason I watched this episode again was that Hero was number nine in S3's top ten AtS episodes. I went back a few episodes to see what Doyle meant to the group.
I think that in this episode Doyle, more than anyone else, was balanced between sense and sensitivity. He's the one who is weaponless when he gets attacked by the tentacle of spewing emotions in the beginning. He's the one who acts as the translator and go-between for reserved Angel and (over)expressive Cordy. He's the one who brings back the information and weapons that help Angel to deal with the problems of the week.
Oh, and although Angel and Cordy seemed to be on the opposite sides of the sense/sensitivity spectrum, I thought there was a bit of a parallel between them as well. They were both confronted with the fact that someone they worked with found them very attractive. Doyle and Talky!Kate were willing to show their feelings, but both Cordy and Angel were avoidy. Cordy was certainly panicky when Talky!Kate started to go all sensitivity-trainer on them.
Linda, I miss Doyle.
P.S. And thanks to you, I haven't watched Hero yet, 'cause I was going to watch The Bachelor Party and I Will Remember You first, but then I got all distracted by this one.
P.P.S. So it's your fault as well that I'm not commenting about your analyses of those episodes, too. Just thought you'd like to know.
P.P.P.S. In a way, this is episode also touches on some of the same themes as Hush. Communication and feelings and what have you. Huh. Although the results are soooo much bleaker in AtS.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 16, 2005 8:44:59 GMT -5
Hi again! Oh, and the other reason I watched this episode again was that Hero was number nine in S3's top ten AtS episodes. I went back a few episodes to see what Doyle meant to the group. I think that in this episode Doyle, more than anyone else, was balanced between sense and sensitivity. He's the one who is weaponless when he gets attacked by the tentacle of spewing emotions in the beginning. He's the one who acts as the translator and go-between for reserved Angel and (over)expressive Cordy. He's the one who brings back the information and weapons that help Angel to deal with the problems of the week. Oh, and although Angel and Cordy seemed to be on the opposite sides of the sense/sensitivity spectrum, I thought there was a bit of a parallel between them as well. They were both confronted with the fact that someone they worked with found them very attractive. Doyle and Talky!Kate were willing to show their feelings, but both Cordy and Angel were avoidy. Cordy was certainly panicky when Talky!Kate started to go all sensitivity-trainer on them. Linda, I miss Doyle. P.S. And thanks to you, I haven't watched Hero yet, 'cause I was going to watch The Bachelor Party and I Will Remember You first, but then I got all distracted by this one. P.P.S. So it's your fault as well that I'm not commenting about your analyses of those episodes, too. Just thought you'd like to know. P.P.P.S. In a way, this is episode also touches on some of the same themes as Hush. Communication and feelings and what have you. Huh. Although the results are soooo much bleaker in AtS. Yep. It's all Erin's fault. ;D I think you are really right that Doyle operated as a middle ground, a balancing influence. Which makes the speculation on how things would have been different with the AI gang if he hadn't died in Hero so intriguing to me. Would Angel have slid so far, been so influenced by Darla if Doyle had been in the mix - Doyle with his better understanding of the demon side? Doyle with his continual proddings for Angel to connect with humanity? Interesting how communication issues are, on the surface, funnier here than in Hush, but - as you say - actually bleaker than on BtVS. I also really liked your comparison of the differences due to how young the Buffy gang were when they got together as a group. P.S. Thanks for reminding me of the "hug" line in Lineage - good connection with this ep! P.P.S. I really dislike Kate's dad too - not quite as much as Mr. Wyndam-Price, but darn close. And it's interesting to see how many similarities Kate and Wesley share. They both attempt to be very emotionally closed off on the surface, yet have a deep core of emotionaly need just below. Offer them some hope of caring or love and they just . . . latch onto it. Damn their daddies for being so . . . well, you know! |
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Post by Queen E on Jul 18, 2005 12:31:34 GMT -5
Hi Erin! I am not worthy!  I loooved your analysis! Your observations gave me many an "Aha!" moment. Oh, you are SO worthy! But, "If you didn't poke playing cards, the mullets wouldn't hold a geiger counter to you." I'm just sayin'. Definitely; he is in touch enough to have a good idea of what he wants to avoid, which often times the only way to survive. Although the sensitivity trainer talks about getting in touch with emotions in order to be better cops, by the time he's done, if the cops were any more in touch with their feelings, their feelings would have to take out a restraining order on them. It's rather like River's stripped amygdala: when you can't not feel everything, it's almost impossible to function normally... Hee! Yes, he is...and I'm looking forward to figuring it out myself... It's amazing, though; by the time "The Prodigal" came along, I really did feel a bit for Trevor; I mean, he's just lost. I think the grief over losing his wife mixed with being a cop made it easier for him to just shut down. Not to mention that he's part of a generation that did not do that at all. You tell those voices that I think you're smart and I will not hesitate to open up a can of whoop ass on them if they keep mocking you. Because you are smart as hell! I mean, you just tied Sense and Sensitivity with A Hole in the World. Dude. |
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Post by Queen E on Jul 18, 2005 13:21:07 GMT -5
Hi again! Ok, I've been feeling a bit guilty because at the time of the previous post, I had only watched this episode once with your analysis in mind. That's at least two times less than usual. (Not that I'm at all obsessed with Jossverse shows or analyses thereof... : I just really, really don't like Trevor Lockley. Almost as much as I don't like Roger Wyndham-Pryce. I get that...and yeah... |
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Post by Queen E on Aug 3, 2005 12:25:20 GMT -5
Yep. It's all Erin's fault. ;D I think you are really right that Doyle operated as a middle ground, a balancing influence. Which makes the speculation on how things would have been different with the AI gang if he hadn't died in Hero so intriguing to me. Would Angel have slid so far, been so influenced by Darla if Doyle had been in the mix - Doyle with his better understanding of the demon side? Doyle with his continual proddings for Angel to connect with humanity? You bring up an interesting point; I'm not sure. Doyle had intimate knowledge of Angel's past, most likely (although it's never made explicit) put there by the PtBs. Cordy and Wes never really had that; they knew bits and pieces, but I don't think they were prepared for Angel to get as consumed as he did. Lorne ending up filling, in some ways, the role that Doyle would have evolved into. Because Lorne doesn't judge; I doubt, once Doyle had integrated and found love with Cordy, that he would have been judgemental either. He had guilt like Angel did. Neither Cordy nor Wes had anything like that, atonement-wise, for a long time into the series. And I think both the mileau and the level of emotional development influences that. The Scoobies are still growing, still learning about the world and how to relate to it and each other. Most of the patterns we see among Angel and Co are ingrained and difficult to change in a significant way without death or destruction. Very bleak... Eetah. |
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I just really, really don't like Trevor Lockley. Almost as much as I don't like Roger Wyndham-Pryce. 
) Seems to me that the pivotal decisions in this episode have to do with talking about those feelings. At this point in BtVS, Buffy and the Scoobies talk about their feelings a lot. It makes them closer and, IMO, shows that their friendships began when they were all very young. (Giles is the exception: he's a grown-up, he's a mentor and he's British -- so not so much with the talkiness there. It's one of the reasons why I believe that his relationship with Buffy and the Scoobies was credibly strained in Seasons Six and Seven.) 
to Trevor & Roger.)